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  • rpgtype7v
    Rank 4 Registered User
    • Jan 2018
    • 25

    that carrier is just bad luck for russia. sell it to chinese let them come in with their floating docks and take it. and not only save money but get some more.

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    • LMFS
      Rank 4 Registered User
      • Feb 2018
      • 561

      Anything goes if it is about disarming Russia I see, now the reason is a cursed carrier. That is just funny.

      BTW newly patented hull by Krylov allegedly allows 25-30% reduction of resistance and tremendous increase of internal weapons load. Together with updates of naval aviation, order of new hulls / expanded vessel classes and availability of domestic gas turbines as exposed by others here shows a clear commitment towards the development of a blue water navy. Russia today is not hostage to ideology and rather a pragmatic power, they will fight for their right to have a say in the world's issues by developing their navy just as anybody else.
      Last edited by LMFS; 11th April 2019, 13:49.

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      • Vitte
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Mar 2016
        • 15

        The cruiser "Varyag" moves in the bay.

        https://www.youtube.com/user/Vitalicus75

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        • Guest's Avatar
          Guest

          Originally posted by rpgtype7v View Post
          that carrier is just bad luck for russia. sell it to chinese let them come in with their floating docks and take it. and not only save money but get some more.
          Russia just can't afford her anymore. As it would require an extensive upgrade to be even competitive short-term! Then what about long-term??? As the AirWing is nearly obsolete now.....

          Comment

          • TR1
            TR1
            http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
            • Oct 2010
            • 9826

            It has been an eventful several days!

            On the 23rd, Gremyashy went to sea for trials"

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            And Kasatonov did as well:

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            Then today:

            Next two 22350 frigates were laid down @ Severanaya, modified project with 24 UKSK cells, not 16 like previous ships:

            https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3620778.html

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            The ship in the back is Derzky (or is it Merkury now?), the first 20386 frigate.

            And two more 11711 landing ships @ Yantar, though the project has been heavily modifed (and larger, up to 8k tons):

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            And finally the special purpose nuclear sub, and now the longest sub on earth, Belgorod was launched @ Sevmash:

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            • LMFS
              Rank 4 Registered User
              • Feb 2018
              • 561

              The big modification of the 11711 project has been a surprise. But in retrospective, the director of Yantar said that they could grow up the project up to 14 kT:

              "Have the opportunity to increase its displacement to 7 [thousand], 8 [thousand] to 9 [thousand] and even up to 14 thousand tons", - said Efimov.

              He recalled that the Nevskoe design Bureau, the initiative is developing a draft landing craft on the basis of "Ivan Gren". According to the interlocutor of the Agency, the new ship will be compared to a predecessor to have greater displacement, length and width, will become more capacious. "We need to increase the technical capabilities of the ship and landing capacity, and increase the number of vehicles that can be stored on Board", - said General Director of "Amber".

              The composition of the air group on the new ship will depend on the tasks that will supply the Navy. "I think that in designing the new perspective of the ship the number of helicopters should be increased. How is will depend on the tasks that will supply the fleet," - said Efimov.

              Earlier in an interview with TASS the General Director of the Kaliningrad shipyards reported that the series 11711 will not continue - it is planned to develop a new project larger displacement. The President of the United shipbuilding Corporation Alexey Rakhmanov also said that the Navy will be built two or three large landing ship "Ivan Gren", but modified the project.

              https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en...-i-opk/5924402

              The thrill is now whether new LHDs will be developed with full flight deck and bigger displacement (and eventually STOVL planes) and what will happen with the carriers and their air wing. Big decisions ahead.

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              • Guest's Avatar
                Guest

                Originally posted by LMFS View Post
                The big modification of the 11711 project has been a surprise. But in retrospective, the director of Yantar said that they could grow up the project up to 14 kT:

                "Have the opportunity to increase its displacement to 7 [thousand], 8 [thousand] to 9 [thousand] and even up to 14 thousand tons", - said Efimov.

                He recalled that the Nevskoe design Bureau, the initiative is developing a draft landing craft on the basis of "Ivan Gren". According to the interlocutor of the Agency, the new ship will be compared to a predecessor to have greater displacement, length and width, will become more capacious. "We need to increase the technical capabilities of the ship and landing capacity, and increase the number of vehicles that can be stored on Board", - said General Director of "Amber".

                The composition of the air group on the new ship will depend on the tasks that will supply the Navy. "I think that in designing the new perspective of the ship the number of helicopters should be increased. How is will depend on the tasks that will supply the fleet," - said Efimov.

                Earlier in an interview with TASS the General Director of the Kaliningrad shipyards reported that the series 11711 will not continue - it is planned to develop a new project larger displacement. The President of the United shipbuilding Corporation Alexey Rakhmanov also said that the Navy will be built two or three large landing ship "Ivan Gren", but modified the project.

                https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en...-i-opk/5924402

                The thrill is now whether new LHDs will be developed with full flight deck and bigger displacement (and eventually STOVL planes) and what will happen with the carriers and their air wing. Big decisions ahead.
                Do we have an drawing and/or model of the New LHD. Which, is suppose to be based on the current Ivan Gren Class correct???

                Comment

                • LMFS
                  Rank 4 Registered User
                  • Feb 2018
                  • 561

                  New construction of a naval base in Novorossiysk will be completed in 2020

                  https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en...507565&lang=RU

                  Comment

                  • LMFS
                    Rank 4 Registered User
                    • Feb 2018
                    • 561

                    Two important carrier-related news today:

                    First, 35th shipyard has apparently been selected for expansion in order to substitute PD-50. This will imply a slight delay of the docking but the deadline for the update remains 2021:

                    Aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov to be docked for further repairs in 2020 source

                    Russias aircraft carrier The Admiral Kuznetsov, currently undergoing repairs and maintenance at the 35th ship repair plant in Murmansk, will be docked in 2020, a source in the shipbuilding industry told TASS. "The phase of repairs in a dry dock will begin in 2020, provided the facilities required are in place and the docks capacity is increased," the source said.
                    The United Shipbuilding Corporation told TASS the 35th ship repair plant was in the process of upgrading its dock facilities, which would allow for accommodating the aircraft carrier The Admiral Kuznetsov. "Its a complex package of measures, so we foresee a certain postponement of the second docking of the ship, but the eventual deadline for completing the repairs and upgrade - 2021 - will remain unchanged," the corporation said.
                    Shipbuilding corporation president Alexei Rakhmanov told TASS the aircraft carrier suffered 52 defects, which would cost 70 million rubles to eliminate. He said The Admiral Kuznetsov would have to be docked for a second time. Originally the operation was scheduled for the summer of 2019. After the sinking of the PD-50 dock several options of a second docking were considered and the choice was made in favor of creating the required facilities at the 35th ship repair plant. In April 2018, the shipbuilders signed a contract with the Defense Ministry for doing repairs on the aircraft carrier The Admiral Kuznetsov (project 11435). The then deputy commander of the Russian Navy, Viktor Bursuk, said the repairs on Russias sole aircraft carrier began in May 2018 and the Navy hoped to have the upgraded ship back in 2021.
                    Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said on April 9 the share of the repair and upgrade work done reached 25% and was to be completed by the end of 2020.
                    The Admiral Kuznetsov will be armed with new air defense systems, including Pantsir-M. Power equipment, boilers, pumps, flight equipment, observation and control systems will be replaced.
                    More:
                    http://tass.com/defense/1057257


                    Second, "sources" report plans for a 70 kT CVN to be developed in Russia starting in 2023:

                    Russia to start development of nuclear-powered aircraft carrier in 2023 source

                    Research and development (R&D) work to create the first Russian nuclear-powered aircraft carrier will start in 2023; it was included in the state arms program. A source in the shipbuilding industry told TASS about it on Tuesday. "R&D work on the new aircraft carrier was included in the operating state arms program by 2027 and will start in 2023," the source said.
                    He specified that "the ship will have a nuclear energy unit and displacement of about 70,000 tonnes." The source did not specify the estimate cost of the work and the period of the ships construction.
                    The United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) told TASS that they "havent received any design specifications for the given ship from the Russian Defense Ministry yet." The corporation noted that it did not stop the development of proposals on advanced ships, including the aircraft carrier. "In case of receiving an order from the Defense Ministry, the corporations enterprises will be ready to implement it," the USC added.
                    The Russian Navy earlier stated that the Russian fleet expects to receive an advanced aircraft carrier with a nuclear energy unit by late 2030. The Defense Ministry noted that the contract to build the aircraft carrier may be signed by late 2025.
                    More:
                    http://tass.com/defense/1057234

                    Comment

                    • haavarla
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 6715

                      Originally posted by Scooter View Post
                      Russian hasn't built a Major Surface Combatant (Destroyer or Larger) since before the collapse of the former Soviet Union.


                      Some just don't get that Russia is no longer the Super Power of the Soviet Era any longer.
                      Yes. But the Latest Frigates(and Korvetts) have a heavy weapon displacement that is much better vs only a decade ago. Its nothing to sneeze about.
                      See recent Kalibr'zation of Russian Navy for clues.
                      Its Bang for the Buck's.
                      Unlike these:
                      https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...th-destroyers/
                      Last edited by haavarla; 8th May 2019, 07:51.
                      Thanks

                      Comment

                      • Guest's Avatar
                        Guest

                        Originally posted by haavarla View Post

                        Yes. But the Latest Frigates(and Korvetts) have a heavy weapon displacement that is much better vs only a decade ago. Its nothing to sneeze about.
                        See recent Kalibr'zation of Russian Navy for clues.
                        Its Bang for the Buck's.
                        Unlike these:
                        https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...th-destroyers/
                        While, the Frigates in question are indeed capable for their size. If, Russia had more money. They clearly would build larger and more capable designs.

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                        • Guest's Avatar
                          Guest

                          Originally posted by LMFS View Post
                          Two important carrier-related news today:

                          First, 35th shipyard has apparently been selected for expansion in order to substitute PD-50. This will imply a slight delay of the docking but the deadline for the update remains 2021:

                          Aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov to be docked for further repairs in 2020 source

                          Russias aircraft carrier The Admiral Kuznetsov, currently undergoing repairs and maintenance at the 35th ship repair plant in Murmansk, will be docked in 2020, a source in the shipbuilding industry told TASS. "The phase of repairs in a dry dock will begin in 2020, provided the facilities required are in place and the docks capacity is increased," the source said.
                          The United Shipbuilding Corporation told TASS the 35th ship repair plant was in the process of upgrading its dock facilities, which would allow for accommodating the aircraft carrier The Admiral Kuznetsov. "Its a complex package of measures, so we foresee a certain postponement of the second docking of the ship, but the eventual deadline for completing the repairs and upgrade - 2021 - will remain unchanged," the corporation said.
                          Shipbuilding corporation president Alexei Rakhmanov told TASS the aircraft carrier suffered 52 defects, which would cost 70 million rubles to eliminate. He said The Admiral Kuznetsov would have to be docked for a second time. Originally the operation was scheduled for the summer of 2019. After the sinking of the PD-50 dock several options of a second docking were considered and the choice was made in favor of creating the required facilities at the 35th ship repair plant. In April 2018, the shipbuilders signed a contract with the Defense Ministry for doing repairs on the aircraft carrier The Admiral Kuznetsov (project 11435). The then deputy commander of the Russian Navy, Viktor Bursuk, said the repairs on Russias sole aircraft carrier began in May 2018 and the Navy hoped to have the upgraded ship back in 2021.
                          Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said on April 9 the share of the repair and upgrade work done reached 25% and was to be completed by the end of 2020.
                          The Admiral Kuznetsov will be armed with new air defense systems, including Pantsir-M. Power equipment, boilers, pumps, flight equipment, observation and control systems will be replaced.
                          More:
                          http://tass.com/defense/1057257


                          Second, "sources" report plans for a 70 kT CVN to be developed in Russia starting in 2023:

                          Russia to start development of nuclear-powered aircraft carrier in 2023 source

                          Research and development (R&D) work to create the first Russian nuclear-powered aircraft carrier will start in 2023; it was included in the state arms program. A source in the shipbuilding industry told TASS about it on Tuesday. "R&D work on the new aircraft carrier was included in the operating state arms program by 2027 and will start in 2023," the source said.
                          He specified that "the ship will have a nuclear energy unit and displacement of about 70,000 tonnes." The source did not specify the estimate cost of the work and the period of the ships construction.
                          The United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) told TASS that they "havent received any design specifications for the given ship from the Russian Defense Ministry yet." The corporation noted that it did not stop the development of proposals on advanced ships, including the aircraft carrier. "In case of receiving an order from the Defense Ministry, the corporations enterprises will be ready to implement it," the USC added.
                          The Russian Navy earlier stated that the Russian fleet expects to receive an advanced aircraft carrier with a nuclear energy unit by late 2030. The Defense Ministry noted that the contract to build the aircraft carrier may be signed by late 2025.
                          More:
                          http://tass.com/defense/1057234
                          Please, I hope you don't expect the members to believe such Russian "Propaganda"??? First, they could only afford to give the Kuznetsov a modest Refit in the first place. Which, they ended up cutting in half. This was before the accident that lead to the sinking of the floating Dry Dock.
                          QUOTE: Russia Cuts Funds for Aircraft Carrier Modernization

                          The overhaul of Russias sole aircraft carrier is reportedly affected by budget cuts.


                          The modernization and refitting of the flagship of the Russian Navy, the aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov, is reportedly affected by severe cuts to the Russian defense budget, which is reducing the scope of work for the refit, according to Russian media reports.

                          An anonymous source told Interfax that the budget will likely be reduced by fifty percent from the proposed $800 million. Instead of previously planned approximately 50 billion rubles for the work, it is planned to allocate about half of the previously announced amount, the source said.

                          The budget cuts will primary affect the modernization of the carrier, whereas repairs will be carried out in full, according to the source. The remaining funds will be used to upgrade the carriers propulsion systems including replacing four out of the Admiral Kuznetsovs eight turbo-pressurized boilers while overhauling the remaining four.

                          https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/russ...modernization/

                          So, while they maybe able to scrape up the money to complete the Kuznetsov. You would have to be on "Medication" to believe Russia was going to build a New Nuclear Powered Super Carrier! (LOL)

                          Comment

                          • LMFS
                            Rank 4 Registered User
                            • Feb 2018
                            • 561

                            Regarding the new carriers:

                            > A decision regarding further steps in this regard was expected for this Spring, so combined with the fact that the "leak" was disclosed by TASS it may indicate the decision has indeed been taken. I think it is possible that we have an official communication still this year.
                            > 70 kT would follow previous reports about VMF wanting a bigger carrier than the Kuznetsov. I suppose the air wing the ship can carry has limitations and therefore they would like to go for something a bit bigger. The size is not a super carrier (Nimitz is >40% bigger) but if combined with the new hull by Krylov could maybe carry a three fighter-squadron air wing, maybe even more.
                            > Personally I think the decision is totally correct, both in regards of the size and of the propulsion. Details about the air wing, hull layout, installation of VLS and presence of catapults or not are further interesting details we hopefully will learn in the future.

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                            • Guest's Avatar
                              Guest

                              Originally posted by LMFS View Post
                              Regarding the new carriers:

                              > A decision regarding further steps in this regard was expected for this Spring, so combined with the fact that the "leak" was disclosed by TASS it may indicate the decision has indeed been taken. I think it is possible that we have an official communication still this year.
                              > 70 kT would follow previous reports about VMF wanting a bigger carrier than the Kuznetsov. I suppose the air wing the ship can carry has limitations and therefore they would like to go for something a bit bigger. The size is not a super carrier (Nimitz is >40% bigger) but if combined with the new hull by Krylov could maybe carry a three fighter-squadron air wing, maybe even more.
                              > Personally I think the decision is totally correct, both in regards of the size and of the propulsion. Details about the air wing, hull layout, installation of VLS and presence of catapults or not are further interesting details we hopefully will learn in the future.
                              Then you keep dreaming. As Russia is in no position to develop a totally New Class of "Super Carriers" (and everything that would go with it) anytime in the foreseeable future. Honestly, the idea is "ABSURD".

                              Comment

                              • Yama
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Feb 2012
                                • 636

                                Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                                Then you keep dreaming. As Russia is in no position to develop a totally New Class of "Super Carriers" (and everything that would go with it) anytime in the foreseeable future. Honestly, the idea is "ABSURD".
                                It's a project to keep design teams employed and up-to-date with current technological advances, and who knows, maybe 5 years from now, Russia can actually afford to start building it. Probably not, but it's something which can be worried then.

                                Comment

                                • LMFS
                                  Rank 4 Registered User
                                  • Feb 2018
                                  • 561

                                  As said above, if the decision that was expected regarding the way forward with the carriers has indeed been taken, then we should notice it in the following months because official news will probably be published. This should also unleash a series of associated decisions, like the path forward with naval fighters / PAK-KA / STOVL, AWACS / AEW, UCAV, EMALS / springboard, carrier vs. LHDs and all other related issues, from which we will also get a trace. So we just have to wait a little and see, such a program will give many hints before it actually materializes or fails completely.

                                  IMO all this criticism does not come from deep and detailed study of Russian military budget but purely from personal beliefs. When the costs of a carrier, as reported by design bureaus, are used and spread along the years needed to develop such a project, the impact on the Russian budget does not look too big. And is important to remember that most of the modernization of the armed forces has been already completed, so there are both money freed and MIC companies needing workload. The need to develop the navy is as an obvious need for Russia as it is for any other power, so in reality there is only one way forward and it was outlined in the naval development strategy, regardless of how difficult or how many delays. Such strategic documents are the obvious base to analyse the development of VMF and cannot be simply dismissed since they lay down the roadmap that MoD must implement.

                                  What would make sense, as far as I can see? 2-3 new carriers as the ones described in the article, with newer Krylov hull and only a springboard, at least in the beginning. 3-4LHDs. For the naval fighter Russia has an obvious choice which is the Su-57, essentially providing VMF the kind of platform NGAD is trying to produce for USN but with many years of advantage. AWACS/AEW role could be covered in the beginning by networking of existing aerial assets. But in the future a specific plane could be developed. Contrary to popular belief, Yak-44 could be operated from a springboard, so it is not 100% mandatory to need EMALS, at least until tankers become a central element of the naval aviation.

                                  STOVL would be good for the LHDs but a solo development for a low amount of planes does not look feasible. Besides, high speed helos could cover part of the roles of a STOVL. One possible approach would be the development with China, which also seeks to develop their expeditionary forces. The other, to develop a light fighter in the following versions:

                                  1. UCAV, CTOL for the VKS and export
                                  2. CTOL, manned. For export and maybe VKS
                                  3. Unmanned STOVL, with lifting fan in the place of cockpit. This would eliminate most of the layout problems and limitations of current STOVL designs, where the position of the lifting devices after the cockpit eliminates dorsal tank, central weapons bay & centerline pylon and forces the main engine forward, reducing internal volume and worsening aero. This would be a real improvement for STOVL performance IMO.

                                  Comment

                                  • LMFS
                                    Rank 4 Registered User
                                    • Feb 2018
                                    • 561

                                    Russia plans to manufacture 12 upgraded Project 22350M frigates - source

                                    According to the source, a project plan for a vessel with a displacement of 7,000 tons and a capability of carrying up to 48 Kalibr, Oniks and Tsirkon cruise missiles will be finalized by the yearend


                                    Russia plans to manufacture 12 upgraded Project 22350M frigates capable of carrying each up to 48 Kalibr, Oniks and Tsirkon cruise missiles, a source in the shipbuilding industry told TASS on Thursday. "The lead vessel in this series is planned to be commissioned to the Navy in 2027," the source said.
                                    According to the source, "a project plan for a vessel with a displacement of 7,000 tons and a capability of carrying up to 48 Kalibr, Oniks and Tsirkon cruise missiles will be finalized by the yearend."
                                    "In all, 12 frigates of this class are planned to be manufactured, with 11 out of them to be commissioned to the customer within the frames of the new state arms procurement program," the source added.
                                    TASS does not yet have an official confirmation of this information.

                                    More:
                                    http://tass.com/defense/1057638

                                    Comment

                                    • LMFS
                                      Rank 4 Registered User
                                      • Feb 2018
                                      • 561

                                      Deputy Prime Minister Borisov has confirmed plans to create a new aircraft carrier in Russia

                                      However, he did not specify when the new aircraft carrier can be launched

                                      MOSCOW, may 9. /TASS/. Russia plans to build a new aircraft carrier for their Navy. This was reported to journalists after the Victory parade on red square, the Deputy Chairman of the government of the Russian Federation on issues of defence, Yuri Borisov.

                                      "It has long been in the plans", - Borisov said in response to the question from the TASS correspondent, whether in Russia decided to create a new carrier.
                                      To clarify, when it can be launched, the Deputy Prime Minister did not.

                                      https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en...-i-opk/6416226

                                      Comment

                                      • XB-70
                                        Rank 4 Registered User
                                        • May 2018
                                        • 364

                                        It's a project to keep design teams employed and up-to-date with current technological advances, and who knows, maybe 5 years from now, Russia can actually afford to start building it. Probably not, but it's something which can be worried then.
                                        A nation's military tends to mirror its economic priorities. Take the United Kingdom. It has a very capable Navy which can undertake just about any mission assigned to it, and anywhere in the world. On the other hand, the UK only has around 300 main battle tanks. This is because it has an economy very much geared towards maritime traffic and offshore oil exploration, but doesn't have much economic need for large ground forces. Their only requirement (a political one) is to augment joint expeditions, and 300 tanks is enough for that.

                                        Russia has historically had predominantly land based economic and trade connections. So they kept a lot of tanks and such from the USSR but didn't bother to maintain it's Navy. However, with the rapid development going on in the far north, maritime trade and traffic will become increasingly important. And if that continues the Russian Navy will recover.

                                        Comment

                                        • djcross
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2000
                                          • 5464

                                          Before starting to build a new carrier, the Russian Navy needs to determine the design features which allows the carrier air wing to operate in a pre-planned manner - e.g. sortie rates, aircraft types/size/weight/launchspeed/landing speed, fuel/sensor/weapons loadouts, mission planning/intelligence/networking/communication, and subsurface/surface/air/space defenses. Which means the Russian Navy has already developed a CONOP for the new carrier and its air wing.

                                          I doubt the new carrier will be a modernized Kuznetsov, because the K was designed to provide a screen of A2A missile-armed fighters in support of massive AShM attacks against NATO convoys and largely ignored operations against shore targets. Soviet naval aircraft of that era couldn't launch with heavy weights of bombs and fuel. This was verified during recent operations against Syria rebels where only a small load of bombs were carried, even with the Kuznetsov parked just off the Syrian coast.

                                          It will be interesting to see how the new carrier design develops. As a contrast, USN as defined "sea control" as the CVN's primary mission. CVNs will not be used to support strikes against inland targets because doing so is too risky. So the CVNs will not approach the enemy coast until USAF has neutralized the air/surface/space threat.

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