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  • TR1
    TR1
    http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
    • Oct 2010
    • 9826

    Originally posted by Scar View Post
    First 20386 has been laid down. But...5 years on corvette?!!!! 3400t of displacement?! WTF??? I hope this all is just misinformation.
    Yeah well let's look at trends. Severnaya takes forever to finish any corvette it builds, in fact longer than 5 years. This is a new type, which does nothing to speed things up.

    The thing is, in the past hulls were conserved for sometime because Gov funding was unreliable....5 years with reliable funding is just terrible.

    However that source also says the ship is 3400 tons, so they might just be pulling things out of thin air.
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    • TR1
      TR1
      http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
      • Oct 2010
      • 9826

      Huh, what the hell?



      So it is indeed 3400 tons? With 1 AK-630 and 76mm gun, as renders appear? And no UKSK, as Scar mentioned?

      http://flotprom.ru/2016/%D0%AF%D0%BD...D1%80%D1%8C58/

      Yantar might be included in the 20386 program.
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      • TR1
        TR1
        http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
        • Oct 2010
        • 9826

        http://flotprom.ru/2016/%D0%A1%D0%B5...D1%84%D1%8C26/

        Ok thankfully the corvette will get a 10mm gun.

        http://flotprom.ru/2016/%D0%9F%D0%B2%D0%BE10/

        The third 22800 on will get naval Pantsir.
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        • Scar
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2015
          • 682

          3400t
          5 years to be commissioned
          20-40bln. roubles price tag

          Today my opinion on this ship changed on 180* - it's going to be even a more epic fail, than 20380.

          Comment

          • Blitzo
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2011
            • 1332

            Originally posted by Scar View Post
            3400t
            5 years to be commissioned
            20-40bln. roubles price tag

            Today my opinion on this ship changed on 180* - it's going to be even a more epic fail, than 20380.
            Can I ask why you see 20380 as a fail, and why 20386 is a bigger failure?

            The way I see it, 20386 is basically a new generation frigate rather than a corvette, and meant to be fielding quite a few new weapons and systems as well not to mention quite a new hull configuration.
            Price is a bit high, but 5 years from laying down to commissioning, for such a new ship with the kind of capabilities it has isn't terrible, especially in context of the recent past of shipyards building for the Russian Navy?

            Comment

            • Scar
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2015
              • 682

              Originally posted by Blitzo View Post
              Can I ask why you see 20380 as a fail
              Why do you think VMF wanted a new corvette? Ever heard about problems of 20380 with stability/seaworthiness and propulsion? Additionally, ask yourslef: why only 4 of them in service? While 20 have been planned to be built, originally.

              , and why 20386 is a bigger failure?
              Coz it's even larger and more expensive than 20380 - its price tag makes it only slightly cheaper than 22350 frigate and more expensive than 11356 frigate.

              BTW, 6-8 years ago, when it became obvious that 20380 isn't satisfactory and too expensive project, a proposal of a more or less reasonable project called "OVR corvette" with displacement of 1500-1800t has emerged. Unfortunately, VMF Staff is sick by giantism and the project was rejected.

              The way I see it, 20386 is basically a new generation frigate rather than a corvette, and meant to be fielding quite a few new weapons and systems as well not to mention quite a new hull configuration.
              The only problem that we need a mass corvette - cheap, affordable and fast in construction! Not another one expensive frigate. We failed with 20380 and now we're going to fail even more with more expensive and complex 20386. Great logic, yeah.
              Price is a bit high, but 5 years from laying down to commissioning, for such a new ship with the kind of capabilities it has isn't terrible, especially in context of the recent past of shipyards building for the Russian Navy?
              What capabalities??? I say it again, we need a cheap and affordable corvette built in good numbers. And we need it not even today but yesterday. Expensive paper-ships won't patrol and protect our territorial waters.
              Last edited by Scar; 29th October 2016, 02:43.

              Comment

              • Blitzo
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2011
                • 1332

                Originally posted by Scar View Post
                Why do you think VMF wanted new corvette? Ever heard about its problems with stability/seaworthiness and propulsion? Additionally, ask yourslef: why only 4 of them in service? While 20 have been planned to be build, originally.
                I'm not that familiar with the more intricacies of the Russian Navy beyond the bigger headline ship classes like Gorshkov, Grigorovich classes.
                I wasn't aware that 20380 had significant issues with seaworthiness and propulsion.

                As for only four in service; I would've attributed it to the general state of Russian shipbuilding industry and/or economy, though like I said I'm not intimately familiar with the Russian Navy's requirements beyond what various easily accessible English language write ups say, and those are scant enough.



                Coz it's even larger and more expensive than 20380 - its price tag makes it only slightly cheaper than 22350 frigate and more expensive than 11356 frigate.

                BTW, 6-8 years ago, when it became obvious that 20380 isn't satisfactory and too expensive project, a proposal of a more or less reasonable project called "OVR corvette" with displacement of 1500-1800t has emerged. Unfortunately, VMF Staff is sick by giantism and the project was rejected.


                The only problem that we need a mass corvette - cheap, affordable and fast in construction! Not another one expensive frigate. We failed with 20380 and now we're going to fail even more with more expensive and complex 20386. Great logic, yeah.

                What capabalities??? I say it again, we need a cheap and affordable corvette built in good numbers. And we need it not even today but yesterday. Expensive paper-ships won't patrol and protect our territorial waters.

                Right, I see.

                So do you think the Russian Navy's 20380s and 20386 would be better served with a slightly smaller, less capable corvette then, that can be successfully produced en masse? What kind of characteristics would your optimal Russian corvette look like?

                Despite 20380 being produced in small numbers, they are still some quite heavily armed ships in their weight class, though I can understand the need for a slightly smaller, perhaps less gold plated ship as well if it can be produced in large numbers? I would assume you're not overly fond of 20385 either as well?

                Comment

                • soyuz1917
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 651

                  This ship should fix basically every deficiency with the 20380's -- under powered power plant, top heavy, basically useless Furke radar, expensive composite upper hull. This thing is all steel, will have much more powerful gas turbine, new radar, not top heavy, and hopefully Redut will actually work in 5 years time. As for cost -- see every naval project everywhere. Is nothing you can do about that.

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                  • Austin
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Oct 2003
                    • 6506

                    Shtil-1 Air Defence Complex

                    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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                    • Scar
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2015
                      • 682

                      Here is, IMO, the corvette we actually need to build in really large numbers - of 20-30 units. Don't pay attention to the worng displacement figure - it's 1300t, actually. http://www.severnoe.com/en/offers/warships/22160/

                      Unfortunately, only Zelenodolsk ship-building plant is building them ATM. It's four of them currently in simultaneous construction, but we need to build 8-10 at once to fill the niche of the universal patrol corvette.

                      Comment

                      • JSR
                        JSR
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Aug 2011
                        • 4982

                        Originally posted by Scar View Post
                        3400t
                        5 years to be commissioned
                        20-40bln. roubles price tag

                        Today my opinion on this ship changed on 180* - it's going to be even a more epic fail, than 20380.
                        what is the level of automation of the ship like how much crew needed. I am sure AESA radar with compact missile systems that can deal with saturated attack will cost some level of money.

                        Comment

                        • TR1
                          TR1
                          http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                          • Oct 2010
                          • 9826

                          Originally posted by Scar View Post
                          Here is, IMO, the corvette we actually need to build in really large numbers - of 20-30 units. Don't pay attention to the worng displacement figure - it's 1300t, actually. http://www.severnoe.com/en/offers/warships/22160/

                          Unfortunately, only Zelenodolsk ship-building plant is building them ATM. It's four of them currently in simultaneous construction, but we need to build 8-10 at once to fill the niche of the universal patrol corvette.
                          Ugh, of all projects, why do you like this one Scar?

                          As a long endurance, deploy far from waters on the cheap ship I can see it, but for near Russia duties?

                          -Meh gun. Luckily they dumped the stupid 57mm, but 76mm is no 100mm.
                          -Anemic air defense.
                          -Anemic defensive and sensor suit.
                          -No UKSK compatibility, instead some weird container/modular BS that I am very dubious of.

                          What is the point of this ship en masse? Might as well make large coast guard ships, and leave actual combat duties to real large surface combatants complimented by specialized small missile/ASW corvettes.
                          sigpic

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                          • TR1
                            TR1
                            http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                            • Oct 2010
                            • 9826

                            Originally posted by soyuz1917 View Post
                            This ship should fix basically every deficiency with the 20380's -- under powered power plant, top heavy, basically useless Furke radar, expensive composite upper hull. This thing is all steel, will have much more powerful gas turbine, new radar, not top heavy, and hopefully Redut will actually work in 5 years time. As for cost -- see every naval project everywhere. Is nothing you can do about that.
                            I think one of the biggest questions is the integrated mast/phased array situation, Zaslon is new to naval radars IIRC.
                            sigpic

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                            • TR1
                              TR1
                              http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                              • Oct 2010
                              • 9826

                              Kasatonov fitting out:

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                              • Scar
                                Senior Member
                                • Nov 2015
                                • 682

                                Gorshkov, 22350

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                                • Freddy
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Apr 2013
                                  • 276

                                  Video on Russian rail gun development. Posted here because they tend to be intended for use on ships first.

                                  Comment

                                  • verbatim
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Aug 2010
                                    • 261

                                    Originally posted by TR1 View Post
                                    I think one of the biggest questions is the integrated mast/phased array situation, Zaslon is new to naval radars IIRC.
                                    I had the feeling, since early days of project 20380, the design was a frigate squeezed in a corvette hull, and as such unable to pay back the costs and complexities.

                                    Almost all of the alleged troubles could have originated from this original sin.

                                    Hull's forms too streamilined at cost of lateral stability, too much crew and systems for a short endurance ship, a powerplant requested to provide high speeds and so on.

                                    Point is: which kind of ship does Russian Navy look for?

                                    If they need a patrol ship, I suspect the answer to 20380's shortcomings should be a partial redesign of the hull, aiming at a greater stability, reduced weapom systems, and perhaps a reduced top Speed.

                                    Something like South Korea' s corvettes, built in two subclasses, one specializsd on ASW, the other on AShW and surface surveillance.

                                    A large displacement (for a corvette) should come handy anyway in terms of spaces available to a reduced crew,. endurance and helicopter's support.

                                    On the other hand, if the goal is a general purpouse combatant, a larger displacement, and greater costs, are unavoidable, i.e. It will b� a frigate even when called corvette.

                                    The only reason, this is my Hope, for the alleged 20386, is to deploy something radically innovative, in no way deplyable through Krivak's or 22350 hull's.

                                    My preference would b� for a diesel Electric propulsione, getting rid of reduction Gear and perhaps transmission axels, higher degree of automation, active stabilization fins.

                                    Even mediocre diesel engines, freed of the stresses induced by the mechanical link to the screws, could sport better performance and greater Life/dependability when required to turn Electrical generators at almost constant regime, and adding more of them to get required Total Power output would b� in no way as complex as with conventional mechanical transmission.

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                                    • TR1
                                      TR1
                                      http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                                      • Oct 2010
                                      • 9826

                                      Marshal Ustinov leaves Zvedochka:







                                      sigpic

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                                      • Trident
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • May 2004
                                        • 3970

                                        If top weight was genuinely a problem with Pr.20380 I have to say this does not bode well for the new corvette... a taller superstructure, built out of a much heavier material is not a recipe for curing that issue! And I'm not even sure beam is actually wider on Pr.20386, as overall width (as opposed to water line) is 13m for Pr.20380 as well, according to some sources - so depending on what measurement that placard is referring to, there may not be any improvement for better sea keeping in that regard either.
                                        sigpic

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                                        • JSR
                                          JSR
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Aug 2011
                                          • 4982

                                          against low altitude this technology will change ship design.
                                          https://sputniknews.com/russia/20161...-radar-arctic/
                                          During the 2014 drill Podsolnukh (Sunflower), the radar detected a quartet of low flying Sukhoi Su-24 bombers and transferred their coordinates to a missile cruiser, which “shot down” all the four “intruders.”

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