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    NetCentric

    #21
    Stingers were recovered by the Indian Army during the Kagril conflict, there are some photos on the net showing this. As such its unclear if an Anaza or Stinger or some other missile brought down the Mig 21.

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    • Guest's Avatar
      NetCentric

      #22
      It also took about 6 to 7 direct hits and hundreds of misses to bring down the Mi-17 as well. I think these kills were credited to Stingers.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by NetCentric
        Stingers were recovered by the Indian Army during the Kagril conflict, there are some photos on the net showing this. As such its unclear if an Anaza or Stinger or some other missile brought down the Mig 21.
        .
        I have seen the video interview of the person who shot down the Indian Mig-21 during the Kargil conflict. He used the Anza to shoot it down, in his own words.

        I heard that Pak exports the Anza SAM and Baktar Shikan ATGM to Malaysia, can anybody confirm this ?

        God Bless.
        Last edited by Mirko_Filipovic; 5th March 2005, 02:27.

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        • Guest's Avatar
          NetCentric

          #24
          Originally posted by Mirko_Filipovic
          I have seen the video interview of the person who shot down the Indian Mig-21 during the Kargil conflict. He used the Anza to shoot it down, in his own words.

          I heard that Pak exports the Anza SAM and Baktar Shikan ATGM to Malaysia, can anybody confirm this ?

          God Bless.
          There is a large credibility issue with the Pak version of the Kagril events - even to this day they deny involvement in the war when it was blatantly clear that Pak Army regulars formed the backbone of the trangression across the LOC. I would therefore discount a lot of Pakistani statements regarding Kagril as window washing. In this case, its convinenent to state the MANPAD was the Anza as it promotes it.

          Though the Malay trials of the Anza vs the Sterla (or whatever MANPAD the Russians fielded) would prove otherwise, in the Countermeasures trials the Anzas went after flares instead of the target, whereas the Sterlas ignored the flares.

          I would therefore find the Pakistani claims of crediting the Anza in the Mig-21 shootdown highly suspect, even more so when there was physical evidence of Stingers in the area.
          Last edited by NetCentric; 6th March 2005, 03:16.

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          • google
            Senior Member

            #25
            NetCentric, you're walking on thin ice here, please be judicious in what you choose to post next.
            Last edited by google; 6th March 2005, 04:48.

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            • Guest's Avatar
              NetCentric

              #26
              Google - will do, just wanted to point out some very pertinent facts with respect to the Anaza and the resulting doubts over accrediting it the Mig-21 kill.

              Cheers,

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              • phrozenflame
                Rank 5 Registered User

                #27
                Netcentric, provide sources for this statement:

                "it also took about 6 to 7 direct hits and hundreds of misses to bring down the Mi-17 as well. I think these kills were credited to Stingers."
                As for Kargil, that is off-topic and has been discussed down to flames everytime, so kindly stick to the topic before the thin ice breaks.
                www.JF-17.com

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                • Golden_Arrow
                  Senior Member

                  #28
                  In Kargil, Indian forces lost 3 aircrafts in total. A Mig 27M that crashed because of Engine flameout, a MiG 21 that was shot down (both on May 27) and a Mi-17 Helicopter which was also shot down (on May 28). An IAF Canberra recce plane was also damaged by ground fire.

                  See: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../kargil-99.htm for an authoritative independent summary.

                  All the shoot downs and damage was done by Stingers and not Anzas. Pakistan had a vested interest to add on to their lies on Kargil about denying Stinger involvement because it would bring more pressure from the US about using their weapons in a reckless provocation of India.

                  Another summary by the US Naval Postgraduate School's Center for Contemporary Conflict also confirms the use of Stingers. The NPS' book of essays of military and strategic analyses of Kargil by US,Indian and Pak experts is due in a month or so. I believe Col. Jack Gill of the US National Defense University is writing the military/tactical analysis of the fighting. We should get more details from him.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Golden_Arrow
                    In Kargil, Indian forces lost 3 aircrafts in total. A Mig 27M that crashed because of Engine flameout, a MiG 21 that was shot down (both on May 27) and a Mi-17 Helicopter which was also shot down (on May 28). An IAF Canberra recce plane was also damaged by ground fire.

                    See: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../kargil-99.htm for an authoritative independent summary.

                    All the shoot downs and damage was done by Stingers and not Anzas. Pakistan had a vested interest to add on to their lies on Kargil about denying Stinger involvement because it would bring more pressure from the US about using their weapons in a reckless provocation of India.

                    Another summary by the US Naval Postgraduate School's Center for Contemporary Conflict also confirms the use of Stingers. The NPS' book of essays of military and strategic analyses of Kargil by US,Indian and Pak experts is due in a month or so. I believe Col. Jack Gill of the US National Defense University is writing the military/tactical analysis of the fighting. We should get more details from him.

                    The person who shot down the IAF aircraft says he used an Anza.

                    Even Nachiketa knows.




                    (btw I didn't know IAF crashed a plane during the Kargil conflict due to technical problems.)



                    Back to the topic now.
                    Last edited by Mirko_Filipovic; 6th March 2005, 17:04.

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                    • Golden_Arrow
                      Senior Member

                      #30
                      Flt. Lt. K.Nachiketa's MiG-27 was not shot down but crashed due to engine flameout.

                      Get your facts right.
                      Last edited by Golden_Arrow; 6th March 2005, 17:41.

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Golden_Arrow

                        Flt. Lt. K.Nachiketa's MiG-21 was not shot down but crashed due to engine flameout.

                        Get your facts right.


                        Quoting Golden Arrow : "A Mig 27M that crashed because of Engine flameout, a MiG 21 that was shot down (both on May 27)"



                        Make up your mind.

                        Back to topic now.
                        Last edited by Mirko_Filipovic; 6th March 2005, 17:30.

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                        • George J
                          Oracleologist

                          #32
                          Mirko....I think you ve taken one too many hits on your noggin. Nachi had a flameout and them ***** shot down Ahuja and then some. I know counting may be difficult but its always been one -27 flameout and a one -21 shot down with some impressive torture of downed pilots, there was no second -27 shot down.

                          Now if you like to believe that there was one based on your sources....be my guest. Its gonna be like this pic you posted in the PA thread. Looks impressive and yet does NOT explain the context of the pic....



                          You do know this pic was taken right?
                          ________
                          Mercedes-Benz L-series truck
                          ________
                          BUY VAPORGENIE
                          Last edited by George J; 12th March 2011, 20:47.

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                          • Golden_Arrow
                            Senior Member

                            #33
                            Originally posted by Mirko_Filipovic
                            Quoting Golden Arrow : "A Mig 27M that crashed because of Engine flameout, a MiG 21 that was shot down (both on May 27)"



                            Make up your mind.

                            Back to topic now.
                            I meant to say Nachiketa's MiG-27. Everyone knows he flew a MiG-27.

                            PAF Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail has a website dedicated to PAF/IAF losses.

                            http://www.pafcombat.com/combat-loss...hen-kargil.htm

                            He says clearly that Flt.Lt. Nachiketa's MiG-27 was not shot down but flamed out. A PAF senior officer has no reason to not award a kill to Pakistan if it were true.

                            That settles the story. No Anza, no janaza. End of discussion.

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                            • #34
                              Ghauri






                              Shaheen I




                              Hatf I

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                              • #35
                                Anza I and II SAM






                                The Anza MK-1, Anza MK-2, and Anza MK-3 surface to air anti-aircraft missiles have ranges of 4, 6 and 15 km, respectively. The missiles are manufactured by the laboratory named after Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan, the father of Pakistan's nuclear program.

                                The Anza MK-II is a portable shoulder-fired, IR homing air defence weapon system similar to the US Stinger missiles. It has a maximum slant range of 5 kilometers, though in the future the maximum range will be increased to almost double. The Anza MK-II is an improved version of Anza MK-II, which was handed over to Pakistan Armed Forces in January 1990. The Anza MK-II was inducted in Pakistan Army in September 1994, and has been locally produced in Pakistan since October 1994. The improved version is a lightweight portable system incorporating a contact-fuse warhead. The main differences from the earlier version are in its high speed (600 M/Sec), accuracy and sustained velocity, high maneuverability and all aspect engagement capability. It can be used to target both fixed and rotary targets and the missile can be fired by a soldier either on his feet or knees. It can be launched in automatic mode as well as in manual mode. The maximum altitude gained by Anza is 4000 meters, and it can carry 550 grams of warhead explosive. Its reaction time is less than 3.5 seconds, while transition time from movement to ready for operation is less than 10 seconds. Its self-destruction time is between 14 to 18 seconds. The launch motor to have a safe distance between the gunner and the missile after it is released has a jettison/separation characteristics. The total length of the missile with launch motor is 147-7 mm and its weighs 10.68 kg. The operating time of ground battery is more than 50 seconds, and the operating temperature range is between minus 40 centigrade to plus 55 centigrade.

                                During the Kargil war Anza got the world's attention by downing an Indian MiG. Has been exported to Malaysia after the Kargil conflict.
                                Last edited by Mirko_Filipovic; 6th March 2005, 18:14.

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                                • Guest's Avatar
                                  NetCentric

                                  #36
                                  Most Pakistani missiles are of Chinese or North Korean origin. This table below provides an overview of the Pakistan vs the source country designation.

                                  Code:
                                  Pak Designation (s)	  |	Foreign Designation
                                  		
                                  ----------------------         ----------------------
                                  
                                  Shaheen,Ghaznavi, Hatf-3    |	PRC M-11 
                                  Shaheen-I 	Hatf-4      |	PRC M-9 
                                  Shaheen-II 	Hatf-6 	    |     PRC M-18 
                                  Ghauri 	Hatf-5 	            |     DPRK ND-1, Iran Shehab-3
                                  Ghauri-III 	Abdali 	    |     DPRK TD-1  
                                  Tipu 		            |     DPRK TD-2
                                  Here is an example, of the Shaheen, which is essentially the PRC M-11 with a different paint job.

                                  The Pakistani Shaheen


                                  The Chinese M-11
                                  Last edited by NetCentric; 8th March 2005, 16:41.

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                                  • Guest's Avatar
                                    NetCentric

                                    #37
                                    The Ghauri is based on the DPRK Nodong missile, good writeups below for those interested:

                                    First from the highly reputable Carnegie Endowment for International Peace:

                                    Secretary of State Albright Visits North Korea
                                    North Korea has exported Scud missiles to such states of concern as Iran, Syria, and also Egypt, Pakistan, and possibly Libya. More disturbingly, it has sold medium-range Nodong missiles to Iran and Pakistan.
                                    [snip...]
                                    Those last three are all tied together. Pakistans Ghauri missile, a medium-range missile over 1,000 kmvarious versions are estimated to have gone from 1,300 to over 2,000 kmis a Nodong missile, is a North Korean missile shipped to Pakistan.
                                    A writeup on the Nodong missile
                                    http://www.princeton.edu/~globsec/pu.../4_2wright.pdf

                                    also this one on the Pakistan - North Korea cooperation:
                                    DPRK - Pakistan Ghauri missile cooperation

                                    and finally this one on the recent induction of the Gauri-Nodong into the Pak Army:
                                    Notes on the Nodong-Ghauri Missile Handover Ceremony at Khan Research Labs Complex

                                    Based on the above, the Iranian Shahab and Pakistan Ghauri are both the North Korean Nodong missile. Some interesting pics for comparison:

                                    A schematic of the North Korean Nodong:


                                    The Iranian Shahab & The Pakistan Ghauri, guess which one is which (the only hint is the different paint, otherwise they are identical down to the launcher):
                                    Attached Files
                                    Last edited by NetCentric; 6th March 2005, 23:28.

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                                    • Arshad
                                      Senior Member

                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by vksac
                                      From the shape in particular....these dont appear to have much of tactical capability...as compard to prithvi in particular.....there are certainly more 'fins' in prithvi. Agni's first stage and the warhead has 'fins'...which give it some critical manuvering towards the terminal and initial phases.

                                      Wonder how effective will they be in dodging interceptor missiles..like arrow-2, akash. Even the test that those guys did in isreal for arrow-2 to id the warhead and head towards it.....I think it will be easy targets for ABMs.
                                      I may be wrong....but certainly high G turns have to be aided with these 'fins'
                                      These "kind" of ballestic missiles are steared by engines and not vins, the vins are static and more meant for stabiliazation, even for the indian missiles. At the final "correction" stage there is certainly no need for "high g turns"
                                      Last edited by Arshad; 6th March 2005, 21:45.

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                                      • Guest's Avatar
                                        NetCentric

                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by Arshad
                                        These "kind" of ballestic missiles are steared by engines and not vins, the vins are static and more meant for stabiliazation, even for the indian missiles. At the final "correction" stage there is certainly no need for "high g turns"
                                        No the Indian Agni fins in the re-entry vehicle does manuver. Also the Indian Prithvi missile does not have a ballistic profile as its fins are designed for a loft trajectory, see below:

                                        http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSIL...s/Prithvi9.jpg
                                        Last edited by NetCentric; 6th March 2005, 23:42.

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                                        • Indian1973
                                          Senior Member

                                          #40
                                          there are certain external diffs between the Shaheen and M-11 TEL. the PRC version has those two vents and no visible storage lockers on the side. the PA version has no vents but three lockers probably for tools and such.
                                          then again, maybe the PRC has moved on to the new type of TEL or the photo is older than PA photo.

                                          the rest look quite identical.

                                          Shaheen is a lot better than Ghauri because
                                          * solid fuel , can be fired off in 10-15 mins after reaching a site
                                          * comes with PRC guidance tech which ought to be decades better than NKorea
                                          tech on Ghauri series.

                                          I believe PA has also decided that Shaheen is the best path forward and Ghauri
                                          series is closed.

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