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  • jackjack
    Senior Member

    nothing, a lot of fanboys are believers in pixie dust

    Comment

    • Taygibay
      Rank 5 Registered User

      And more than a lot of fangirls, LOL.
      sigpic

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      • jackjack
        Senior Member

        Originally posted by Prior Lancey View Post
        Thinking about it over lunch, I can understand your confusion over ‘active’ and ‘passive’. For example, a computer graphics card that cooled by a just a giant heatsink is termed passively cooled, while one with a smaller heatsink and a fan is not. But in the aerospace world ‘active’ means deliberately emitting RF or other energy, while ‘passive’ means not doing so.

        So the AIM-120 uses active guidance (at least in the end game), the AIM-9 uses passive guidance, while the AIM-7 (which needs its target to be illuminated) is considered semi-active.

        I hope you are not seriously suggesting that I phone some engineers I know at MBDA France and tell them that they have got their stealth terminology wrong? Were you to offer to buy them a two-hour lunch at Maxim’s in Paris, they might be prepared to hear you out, but I doubt that they’d agree with your claims.
        i could google and give examples of non emitting active signature management, but you could do the same

        yes, active can be used in lots of ways

        mbda engineers wouldnt use the term stealth with each other as its a nothing term, only PR guys to the public

        Comment

        • Prior Lancey
          Rank 4 Registered User

          Originally posted by jackjack View Post
          i could google and give examples of non emitting active signature management, but you could do the same

          You'd be better off spending the time reading a textbook on radar fundamentals, then another on RCS fundamentals, and learning the terminology and basics of both subjects.

          Since in engineering parlance, 'active' implies emitting, "non emitting active signature management" is a meaningless jumble of words.



          Originally posted by jackjack View Post
          mbda engineers wouldnt use the term stealth with each other as its a nothing term, only PR guys to the public
          Just how many MBDA France engineers have you discussed this with, in order to be so sure of what terminology they use? Or how many MBDA PR staff have you spoken to in order to know what terminology they use?

          As for the absurd concept that stealth is a 'nothing term' that engineers would not use, I have just pulled a technical book from my office shelf and within minutes found passages in which Paul Kaminski and Sherm Mullin both use the term 'stealth'. Kaminski ran the US low-observables programme, while Mullin was Senior Trend program manager.

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          • jackjack
            Senior Member

            you seem to think stealth means radar and low rcs, that is just one of many tech sets
            the term stealth is too generic to have specific meaning
            low obsevability, signature management, the subsets of have specific meaning

            a non emitting active signature management
            http://www.mse.ntu.edu.sg/research/?.../Soldier1.html
            DEFENCE MATERIALS:
            TYPICAL RESEARCH PROJECTS
            Thermoelectric materials for active signature management

            Principal Investigator: A/Prof. Ma Jan

            Thermoelectric materials convert heat to electricity, which provides two desirable outcomes, i.e., the removal of heat (and hence suppresses temperature signals) and the generation of electricity (fuel cell). Most importantly, these materials are highly reliable, silent and vibration free, which are essential features for military operations.

            [kind of like my example you objected to, that i let slip because it wasnt worth trying to convince you]
            Last edited by jackjack; 6th April 2010, 15:26.

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            • Prior Lancey
              Rank 4 Registered User

              Originally posted by jackjack View Post
              you seem to think stealth means radar and low rcs, that is just one of many tech sets
              Youre trying to move the goalposts!

              As an engineer, my professional work first involved target signatures some time in the mid-1970s, so Im perfectly aware that there are thermal, visual and even acoustic aspects to stealth.

              But the portion of this thread that Ive been participating in has been talking about RF stealth, specifically reports of the use of active cancellation on Rafale.

              There is no equivalent to active cancellation in the thermal field. The concept alluded to in the webpage you mention is active cooling.

              Comment

              • Sintra
                Rank 5 Registered User

                Originally posted by jackjack View Post
                bills funny isnt he, first he said it had AC, now he said it didnt work and they are onto mk 2 AC
                and his sourse ?
                us dumb asses here on key, does he have any credability left ?
                Jack

                To be honest i dont think that most of us would agree with that "dumb ass" coment.
                Second, if Bill is using official French budgetary documentation backed up by Tmors comments, his credibility is not affected one inch, quite the oposite, that only proves that hes using some of the best available public sources...
                sigpic

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                • arthuro
                  Rank 5 Registered User

                  Jackjack arguments are so pathetic...He is just ruining this thread with his stupids comments. That's arguing for the sake of arguing.

                  As sintra said the original source is the most reliable you can have : an official government document : the french defense budget of year 2010 from the national assembly or the senate. You cannot find better.

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                  • MigL
                    Rank 5 Registered User

                    I do hope the Rafale gets 'active" cancellation as, in my opinion it is the best way to go, and US stealth is going more in that direction already. It does not impose any constraints on the design of the aircraft like 'traditional' stealth does. The plane can be designed for agility, ordinance delivery or even transport for that matter, and stealth qualities added on.
                    This does not involve masking all the radar reflections from all angles of the plane, just the one reflected in the general direction of the emitting aircraft. It involves considerable amounts of signal processing as the incoming signal has to be analised and the reflection has to be modified/attenuated all in real time, but all it really is , is vastly expanded electronic warfare.
                    I can see stealth upgrades being offered for all current combat aircraft in 15-20 yrs time, much like current radar/avionics upgrades. If France gets in on the ground floor of this emerging technology, its industry stands to make a lot of profit.

                    Comment

                    • arthuro
                      Rank 5 Registered User

                      Successes in Rafale would be "imminent"

                      Philippe Cohen-Grillet 08/04/10 at 06h23

                      Brazil is expected to announce early May the purchase of fighter aircraft products by France. A multi-billion contract that could prefigure other. The contract would cover 36 aircraft

                      Dassault Aviation leaders are preparing to fly in air ... corks of champagne bottles. Reason for euphoria, their technological flagship, the dashing fighter Rafale could finally and for the first time, be exported abroad, a quarter century after conception. Yesterday, a source very familiar with the matter to the Ministry of Defence we stated that Brazil could confirm the purchase of Rafale "early May . "We remain extremely cautious, but all indicators are positive, "added the speaker. Eminently political decision, the Chairman of the South American giant, Lula da Silva would definitely ruled in favor of the hunter tricolor compete with the Gripen Swedish and American F-18. The contract, which would total 36 equipment, will amount to several billion euros.

                      Switzerland and future customers UAE

                      The Brazilian political calendar has a significant bearing on the announcement of the decision. The country has entered into pre-campaign for the presidential election be held in October. After two consecutive terms, Lula can not recur. But the outgoing president, who has always supported Rafale option against a large part of his staff, not should not let this highly strategic choice for his successor. And even! In Paris, some observers are betting on the election Dilma Rousseff to a close that Lula himself has placed in orbit. Not likely that its judge his mentor.

                      An happiness never comes alone, the sale of Rafale in Brazil could prefigure other export successes. "The discussions with the UAE Arab Emirates are more discreet, but they go well. We can conquer this market, "says a reasonably optimistic Minister Defense. To get the lucrative contract, the manufacturer Dassault currently developing a new engine. Objective: to allow the aircraft Combat maximum thrust for takeoff airspace reduced. Same constraints (and the same proposals) for Switzerland, which must also renew its fleet of fighter jets. To take Decision, the Defence Minister, Herve Morin, the army offered Swiss possible to use air bases for French little she opts for the Rafale.
                      http://www.francesoir.fr/argent-arme...ient-imminents

                      Comment

                      • arthuro
                        Rank 5 Registered User

                        Some news from the weekly A&C this friday which is a spacial edition about french EW.

                        Spectra as accounted for about 3 billions Euros in its development and it is not over as it is constantly upgraded. The reason for such an investment is that the rafale is responsible for the nuclear deterrence giving it a strategic role in rafale survivability.

                        Next planned big upgrade which starts its developments now and which is independent from some other developments is due to enter into service with the Batch 5. Spectra will have a new GaN AESA antenna to replace the current GaS AESA one to increase its jamming abilities as well as bandwith.

                        The Batch 5 will also likely get a RBE2 with a GaN antenna an possibly GaN conformal arrays to increase side lobe detection. This "new" radar will likely get jamming capabilities complementary to the Spectra.

                        Comment

                        • arthuro
                          Rank 5 Registered User

                          I also forgot to report from A&C that the DDM-NG which is to be fielded in 2012 has a built in DIRCM capability (as already stated) but also a passive all around IR surveillance function similar to F35 EO-DAS.

                          Comment

                          • Scorpion82
                            Rank 5 Registered User

                            Originally posted by arthuro View Post
                            I also forgot to report from A&C that the DDM-NG which is to be fielded in 2012 has a built in DIRCM capability (as already stated) but also a passive all around IR surveillance function similar to F35 EO-DAS.
                            Thanks for the news Arthuro, but "built in DIRCM capability" is a confusing statement. The DDM NG designed to support DIRCM operations, but it doesn't feature the DIRCM capability itself as this requires new "sensors" or should we call them weapons?

                            Comment

                            • arthuro
                              Rank 5 Registered User

                              sorry scorpion, english is not my native language and your right to say I was confusing in the way I explained it. I meant compatible with futur useof DIRCM
                              Last edited by arthuro; 9th April 2010, 16:02.

                              Comment

                              • obligatory
                                Senior Member

                                Originally posted by arthuro View Post
                                The Batch 5 will also likely get a RBE2 with a GaN antenna an possibly GaN conformal arrays to increase side lobe detection.
                                Interesting stuff arthuro, is it written in english somewhere ?

                                Comment

                                • Taygibay
                                  Rank 5 Registered User

                                  @ Arthuro,
                                  more grammar buddy, YOU were confused;
                                  it's the statement that was confusing.

                                  @ obligatory
                                  It is serious as the change was deemed necessary
                                  while developing the RBE2 AESA version
                                  in view of the clear superiority of the new substrate
                                  over the former one.
                                  I'll try to locate those infos in english for you later
                                  if nobody else has by then.

                                  Good day all.
                                  sigpic

                                  Comment

                                  • arthuro
                                    Rank 5 Registered User

                                    It's in french in A&C but I will certainly scan the page and post it here in the next days.

                                    The report alo talks about the Falcon 20 who was used for the Carbone AESA offensive jamming pod demonstrator (same tech as spectra) and which manage to remain undetected against modern NATO SAM radars at MACE XX exercise ealier this decade. Although the idea of an offenisive jamming pod was abandonned for the moment, the falcon 20 demonstrator was deemed to have far better jamming capability than a prowler.

                                    Basically if such effort is done to developp spectra it is intimetely linked to rafale nuclear detterent role. Spectra is updated cotinuously to ensure an assymetrical edge if needed.

                                    The GAN version of spectra will have better jamming capabilities, better bandwith and will be better when coping with several simultaneous threats.

                                    It may include Active canelation also

                                    Comment

                                    • Taygibay
                                      Rank 5 Registered User

                                      @ obligatory

                                      Best i found, mate.
                                      They're the ones making the components :
                                      http://www.ums-gaas.com/

                                      Good day all.
                                      sigpic

                                      Comment

                                      • c-seven
                                        Rank 5 Registered User

                                        Originally posted by Taygibay View Post
                                        @ obligatory

                                        Best i found, mate.
                                        They're the ones making the components :
                                        http://www.ums-gaas.com/

                                        Good day all.
                                        Try googleing "korrigan gan"

                                        Comment

                                        • Erkokite
                                          Rank 5 Registered User

                                          Originally posted by Taygibay View Post
                                          @ obligatory

                                          Best i found, mate.
                                          They're the ones making the components :
                                          http://www.ums-gaas.com/

                                          Good day all.
                                          From what I heard (over at microwaves101.com) UMS has GaN mmics on their roadmap. So this is good for independent European production of the technology.

                                          Comment

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