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Hypothetical Dogfight EE Lightning v Mig21

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  • Sens
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2000
    • 12296

    #21
    Originally posted by Schorsch View Post
    The energy bleed for continuous turns of the Lightning should be in the same ballpark region.
    Two fighters at 900 km/h. One turning lift, the other right. In a few seconds both are out of reach from each other as long as none of both try to reengage and cut distance by that. Other options are, one goes vertical and the other did not follow. In a head-on engagement both have to turn in the same direction to stay close by at least. Most pilots are unable to keep sight of each other for more than a minute. In the jet-age most combats are over than at all. Just the misleading exercise behavior does give the wrong impression about jet-fighter combat.

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    • MadRat
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Aug 2006
      • 5033

      #22
      The lightning missiles had to be cooled unlike the Atoll. You only carry so much coolant and because of the impracticalities of recycling it, it's a very finite supply. Perhaps two minutes worth per misslie.

      I think guns decides it.
      Go Huskers!

      Comment

      • Sens
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2000
        • 12296

        #23
        Originally posted by MadRat View Post
        The lightning missiles had to be cooled unlike the Atoll. You only carry so much coolant and because of the impracticalities of recycling it, it's a very finite supply. Perhaps two minutes worth per misslie.

        I think guns decides it.
        Jet-fighter air combats do hardly last more than two minutes at all. A lost fire opportunity or a tactical surprise can not be regained most of the time.
        To get sight of each other the ground-control has to alert you and vector you to the opponent detected on the radar. The highest air-aces in the IDF-AF are not pilots but ground controller. Often pilots noch longer fit to fly a fighter.

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        • noble
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Mar 2006
          • 103

          #24
          I alway hear mig-21 had bad rear visibility. not just here in this form, but a lot of the sources. Mirage, Phantom, f-5E, f-8.....and many others upon F-14 had bad rear views, but that rarely mentioned in articles or literatures.

          At least mig-21 has perscope mirrior. If approach from the rear and below, even an F-16 pilot can't see an enemy coming.
          anyway, how importance was rear visibility in air combat during the 60s and 70s?

          Comment

          • lothar
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Aug 2007
            • 59

            #25
            Rear visibility

            Code:
            anyway, how importance was rear visibility in air combat during the 60s and 70s?
            VERY!!

            Comment

            • F/A-18RN
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • May 2005
              • 256

              #26
              Is there a website out there already that lets you compare how a particular dogfight might turn out based on an analysis of statistics and performance figures for various aircraft?

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              • Sens
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2000
                • 12296

                #27
                Originally posted by F/A-18RN View Post
                Is there a website out there already that lets you compare how a particular dogfight might turn out based on an analysis of statistics and performance figures for various aircraft?
                No, and for good reasons.
                Just a single example about that. Create an artificial dogfight in horizontal turning between a Zero-fighter against every available mono-plane fighter during WW2 and the winner is the Zero-fighter. All that based on the related performance figure.
                A more realistic example will be a dogfight between a Zero-fighter and a Wildcat.
                The Zero-fighter will win in 1 versus 1 engagements, when both pilots will stick to the same rules. In multiple engagements the results will differ, because the Wildcat pilots can compensate some performance shortages by a tactical behavior related to mutual support. Under such circumstances a Zero-fighter has still some performance advantages, when the few ones on the Wildcat-side did prevent the Wildcat to be outclassed in such a fight.
                Still better chances for the Zero-fighter pilots in general, when the related tactical advantages could be utilized.
                If a fighter can make use of some advantages does depent on the circumstances at first. At the easter front during WW2 all the IL-2 or Stuka f.e. did operate at lower heighst as the related fighters were forced to do.
                At the western front the bombers did operate as high-up as possible and so were the fighters forced to do. Every fighter is a compromise and does have the most gains, when the real combat will take place the way that fighters were designed for. As long as a fighter is not outclassed the pilots do have the chance to be successful with it.

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                • F/A-18RN
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • May 2005
                  • 256

                  #28
                  I suppose there's always top trumps. Seriously though I suppose the only way we would ever know definitively is if Harold Wilson and Edward Heath hadn't been quite so successful at refusing Overt British military involvement in Vietnam to Presidents Johnson and Nixon we would have got an answer in the skies of South-East Asia.
                  Last edited by F/A-18RN; 21st October 2009, 20:43.

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                  • obligatory
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2008
                    • 7043

                    #29
                    I think the prize with todays missiles goes to the fastest a/c, but the prize with those missiles goes to the guy that could turn and turn until the gun did it or fuel lasted longer.

                    Comment

                    • F/A-18RN
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • May 2005
                      • 256

                      #30
                      In my previous post I mentioned that the only way we might have found out the answer as to which fighter would have come out on top was if Britain had become embroiled in Vietnam. At the risk of taking the discussion off on a tangent, had Britain become directly involved, what would we have sent to the conflict? Lightnings routinely operated in the far east, if I remember rightly 74 Squadron's last deployment as a Lightning unit in the late 60s/early 70s was to Singapore, so I don't think it would be a stretch to assume that they might have flown from South Vietnam.
                      Maybe HMS' Eagle, Ark Royal and Victorious would have deployed to Yankee and Dixie Stations, their Buccaneers flying low level attacks against the North or the Ho Chi Min trail. How would F4K Phantoms with their Spey engines and flown by pilots who were still taught ACM have fared against the MiGs, come to think of it how would FAA Sea Vixens FAw 1 or 2 have fared against the Mig 21 or would they have been tasked with flying cap over the naval task force? Would Vulcans and Victors have participated in Rolling Thunder and the other bombing campaigns of Hanoi and the north?

                      Comment

                      • Sens
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jan 2000
                        • 12296

                        #31
                        In the Jemen of the 60s the Saudi Lightnings with British pilots did force the withdraw of Egyptian MiGs.

                        Comment

                        • F/A-18RN
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • May 2005
                          • 256

                          #32
                          Originally posted by Sens View Post
                          In the Jemen of the 60s the Saudi Lightnings with British pilots did force the withdraw of Egyptian MiGs.
                          What models of MiGs and were their any aerial confrontations/engagements?

                          Comment

                          • alfakilo
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jul 2009
                            • 522

                            #33
                            Originally posted by Sens View Post
                            The Zero-fighter will win in 1 versus 1 engagements, when both pilots will stick to the same rules.
                            Saying this is saying nothing.

                            If your intent is to describe turn radii, thrust-to-weight values, etc...then you have a point. But it is only a point in math.

                            And so, in the context of this topic, someone needs to post EM data for specific models of the MiG-21 and Lightning so that we can focus only on the math. For example, EM difference diagrams are based on a certain aircraft weight and configuration, power setting, and altitude. These charts usually assume level turning and then calculate differences in performance from these parameters.

                            Outside that, nobody stuck to the rules. The Wildcat was inferior to the Zero in certain respects, primarily in turn performance at slow speeds and climb rate. When Wild cat pilots played to their strengths, those deficits went away.

                            Comment

                            • alfakilo
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jul 2009
                              • 522

                              #34
                              Originally posted by F/A-18RN View Post
                              In my previous post I mentioned that the only way we might have found out the answer as to which fighter would have come out on top was if Britain had become embroiled in Vietnam. At the risk of taking the discussion off on a tangent, had Britain become directly involved, what would we have sent to the conflict? Lightnings routinely operated in the far east, if I remember rightly 74 Squadron's last deployment as a Lightning unit in the late 60s/early 70s was to Singapore, so I don't think it would be a stretch to assume that they might have flown from South Vietnam.
                              Maybe HMS' Eagle, Ark Royal and Victorious would have deployed to Yankee and Dixie Stations, their Buccaneers flying low level attacks against the North or the Ho Chi Min trail. How would F4K Phantoms with their Spey engines and flown by pilots who were still taught ACM have fared against the MiGs, come to think of it how would FAA Sea Vixens FAw 1 or 2 have fared against the Mig 21 or would they have been tasked with flying cap over the naval task force? Would Vulcans and Victors have participated in Rolling Thunder and the other bombing campaigns of Hanoi and the north?
                              Interesting "what if".

                              From my experiences with RAF personnel, my belief is that they would have done quite well once familiar with the tactical constraints of the air battle over NVN.

                              One note about the outcome of engagements over NVN...the outcomes seldom had anything to do with relative aircraft performance. Yes, there were times when USAF pilots tried to "turn and burn" with MiGs...and didn't like the result...but most USAF losses to MiGs came from unobserved attacks where relative performance had little to do with the engagement.

                              USAF pilots were at a disadvantage for most of the war. Outmoded formations, little GCI coverage, poor missile performance, overly restrictive ROE, low fuel reserves, etc.

                              My intent is not to belittle the NVN pilots...only to point out that the classic view of "the dogfight" was something seldom seen in that war...and when it was, the outcome usually rested on pilot ability, not aircraft performance.

                              Comment

                              • Sens
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jan 2000
                                • 12296

                                #35
                                Originally posted by alfakilo View Post
                                Interesting "what if".

                                From my experiences with RAF personnel, my belief is that they would have done quite well once familiar with the tactical constraints of the air battle over NVN.

                                One note about the outcome of engagements over NVN...the outcomes seldom had anything to do with relative aircraft performance. Yes, there were times when USAF pilots tried to "turn and burn" with MiGs...and didn't like the result...but most USAF losses to MiGs came from unobserved attacks where relative performance had little to do with the engagement.

                                USAF pilots were at a disadvantage for most of the war. Outmoded formations, little GCI coverage, poor missile performance, overly restrictive ROE, low fuel reserves, etc.

                                My intent is not to belittle the NVN pilots...only to point out that the classic view of "the dogfight" was something seldom seen in that war...and when it was, the outcome usually rested on pilot ability, not aircraft performance.
                                As long as the related aircraft is not outclassed. Like the Boeing P-26 against a Zero f.e. In that case even the best pilot is reduced to a victim at first.

                                Comment

                                • J-20
                                  Rank 4 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2018
                                  • 189

                                  #36
                                  the lightning duh

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                                  • xena
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Nov 2012
                                    • 141

                                    #37
                                    Where are the charts?

                                    Comment

                                    • Levsha
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jan 2006
                                      • 2838

                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by xena View Post
                                      Where are the charts?
                                      Plenty of flight performance charts for the Lightning in this thread from f-16.net.

                                      http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=54267

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