Brazil Short-lists F-18E, Gripen and Rafale in F-X2 Fighter Competition

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20 years 11 months

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... In the coming phase of the selection process, evaluations will concentrate on the following aircraft that have been short-listed (in alphabetical order): Boeing (F-18E/F Super Hornet), Dassault Aviation (Rafale) and Saab (Gripen NG).

The 36 aircraft that make up the first batch must be delivered from 2014, and must have a useful operational life of at least 30 years. Thus, over the coming years, the air force will gradually replace the fighter aircraft currently in service: Mirage 2000, F-5M and A-1M. ...

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.41907438.1222952823.5JiUKn8AAAEAAH7uOscAAAAc&prod=98406&modele=release

I'm surprised about SU-35 being out. For a country of that size, shouldn't be a good solution?

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18 years 4 months

Posts: 227

I'm surprised about SU-35 being out. For a country of that size, shouldn't be a good solution?

Probably failed at some parameters.. more like weapons.. too much of a hassle to switch to russian weapons when your industry produce NATO equivalent weapons.

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15 years 6 months

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Another play in the new Cold War? Venezuela sucks up to Russia, Brazil snubs it in hope of closer ties with the US and NATO?

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24 years 2 months

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Also interesting is the fact that the EF-2000 is not being considered. Anyone know why? Was it not offered, or was it outside the price range?

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15 years 6 months

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Another thing, is it just me or are they going for aircraft with a carrier heritage, or in the case of Gripen NG, lends itself to conversion?

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17 years 8 months

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Another thing, is it just me or are they going for aircraft with a carrier heritage, or in the case of Gripen NG, lends itself to conversion?

Maybe, but the Su-35 has more of a "carrier heritage" (Su-33) than the Gripen.

Anyone know whether it was the F-16 or the F-35 that LM put forward? I've seen both, but would imagine it was the F-16. If the F-16, anyone have any idea on Block?

Logan Hartke

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15 years 6 months

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unless as i said Brazil is playing the NATO vs Russia game and lookingh for points with NATO

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18 years 4 months

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unless as i said Brazil is playing the NATO vs Russia game and lookingh for points with NATO

I think is about commonality of weapons available already in their arsenals. Also they operated Western Based planes , maintenance procedures are known (albeit different).. It would be too costly to go Russian on it.

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18 years 6 months

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The Rafale is French, like the current main fighter. I guess some ties exist.
The Gripen convinces by its small size, overall low costs and its obvious suitability for small air forces (many AFs operate less than 20 Gripen).
The F-18E convinces by price per capability I think, and I guess Boeing can make very competitve offerings.

And the Eurofighter probably does not offer enough to justify the price. Performance-wise it is ahead of the Gripen and at least head-on to the Rafale.

The Suchoi 35, it is still a paper aircraft without any air force really committing to it in numbers. I doubt Brazil wants to be "launch customer" but rather purchase a mature product.

BTW: same carrier heritage isn't that bad, Brazil still operates a carrier (which is to small for either aircraft, but who knows).

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24 years 2 months

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Can be the first export of the Rafale, the French ties in mind. The F-18E seems to be kept to avoid the anger of the USA at first. The USA is an important market for the products of Embraer, when the Gripen does present the political will to look into the most economic solution at least. ;)

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19 years 1 month

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During the last two years this has been widely seen as an exclusive face-off between the Rafale and the Su-35. Brazil signed industrial/defense cooperation agreements with both France and Russia, further highlighting these two planes.

The RFI was sent to Saab, Rosoboronexport, Dassault, Boeing Lockheed Martin and Aeritalia (Eurofighter). Apparently some major and still unclear political switch put the F-18 in the Super Flakers seat. US fighters have long been seen here as a no-run contenders because they were severely limited in terms of technology transfer, a until-now key basic requirement from Brasil.

Also the initial request excluded planes that were still not operational from consideration, this making the Gripen NG acceptance as some hard to understand puzzle.

Let's wait for more news

Regards,

Hammer

Also the initial request excluded planes that were still not operational from consideration, this making the Gripen NG acceptance as some hard to understand puzzle.

Let's wait for more news

Not really. The Su-35 isn't any more 'operational' than the Gripen NG and chances are that even the Rafale and Typhoon configurations on offer to Brazil include(d) a substantial amount of unproven systems too (AESA radars etc.).

I'm also a bit surprised the Super Hornet made it through rather than the Su-35 or the Typhoon, if nothing else because it is American which - as you say - was considered a liability in this competition up to now.

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19 years 6 months

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Can be the first export of the Rafale, the French ties in mind. The F-18E seems to be kept to avoid the anger of the USA at first. The USA is an important market for the products of Embraer, when the Gripen does present the political will to look into the most economic solution at least. ;)

True, Embraer does sell many jets to the US, but entirely(?) to the civilian market, or at the very least the majority of its sales go to civilian firms, who are unlikely to be influenced in their purchase decision by Brazil's choice of warplanes.


BTW: same carrier heritage isn't that bad, Brazil still operates a carrier (which is to small for either aircraft, but who knows).

Ironically, it is the aircraft with NO carrier heritage (although many sources credit it with a high degree of suitability for navalisation) which is almost ideal for Brazil's carrier in terms of size - the Gripen ;)

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18 years 8 months

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With the Rafale, the Brazilians might be hoping to strike a deal for more ex-AdlA Mirage 2000s as well. For example, purchase twenty Rafales, and get enough for twenty to forty Mirage 2000s, i.e. enough to replace pretty much everything in service. It is one thing the French really have in their favour in the contest. With upgrades, a mix of Mirage 2000s (2000-9 upgrade perhaps?) and Rafales would be a pretty good match for the Venezuelan Flankers.

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15 years 8 months

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What are the common points among the three winners of the stage I competition of FX-2 project???

1. Relatively rich experience of proving themselves in the real battlespace and / or high gratitude exercises like red-flag.

2. Shall be able to get the main and basic NG equipments for NG fighter such as AESA radar conformatively before 2014.

3. Having the most complete and well-proved equipment and weapon packages for A2A, A2S, and A2G missions.

Simply speaking, it seems that Brazil AF wants a well-proved omnirole fighter more than an air-superiority fighter with very limited A2G capability, or a prototype fighter with nothing more than lots of promise/anticipation right now.

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16 years 5 months

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If the French were smart, they'd start throwing in everything they can with the Rafale deal, like full ToT, support, training, an unlimited supply of prostitutes, and lots of free alcohol for the Brazilians. They desperately need this sale.

Anyone know the range of the Gripen NG compared to the Rafale? Brazil is a big country, and I wonder if the Gripen could cut it?

But Trident makes a very good point about the carriers...

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24 years 2 months

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True, Embraer does sell many jets to the US, but entirely(?) to the civilian market, or at the very least the majority of its sales go to civilian firms, who are unlikely to be influenced in their purchase decision by Brazil's choice of warplanes.

It is little bit more complicated. Embraer products do have an US-content, just to start with the engines only. The big players in the US-aviation industry have their ways to push their intrests. If it will be enough to "win" is another question, but still important enough not to be ignored from the start. ;)

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17 years

Posts: 457

I think there might be a clue to the selection from one paragraph in the article:

"The know-how and technological qualification acquired through this acquisition program will contribute to Brazil’s capability to produce, or to participate in the production, of 5th generation fighter aircraft in the medium and long term."

Both SAAB and Boeing has proposed concept stealth fighters to South Korea and even if the Koreans seems unlikely to really go through with it, Brazil might be more interested. Dassault on the other hand has long ties with the Brazilian aerospace industry.

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18 years 10 months

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With the Rafale, the Brazilians might be hoping to strike a deal for more ex-AdlA Mirage 2000s as well. For example, purchase twenty Rafales, and get enough for twenty to forty Mirage 2000s, i.e. enough to replace pretty much everything in service. It is one thing the French really have in their favour in the contest. With upgrades, a mix of Mirage 2000s (2000-9 upgrade perhaps?) and Rafales would be a pretty good match for the Venezuelan Flankers.

The stated initial requirement is for 36 aircraft, with the potential for up to 120 aircraft.

I really doubt they would go for more M-2000s, even upgraded ones, when they are looking at replacein them as well over time.

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18 years 7 months

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With the Rafale, the Brazilians might be hoping to strike a deal for more ex-AdlA Mirage 2000s as well.

OK, so the tactics would be to buy brand new Rafales in order to get some second hand Mirage 2K´s? :confused: For some reason the Brazilians and the Indians are obesessed with the M2K -we all just know it ;)

During the last two years this has been widely seen as an exclusive face-off between the Rafale and the Su-35.

Exactly and when the real selection began the Su-35 got the boot in the first round! So much for the word of self-proclaimed experts. :diablo: