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Brazil Short-lists F-18E, Gripen and Rafale in F-X2 Fighter Competition

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  • signatory
    Rank 5 Registered User

    #41
    Originally posted by vajt View Post
    What ever came of the news that Brazil was showing interest in joining the PAK-FA program with Russia and India?

    If they dropped the Su-35, this probably puts a dent on the idea of purchasing the PAK-FA.

    -----JT-----
    They might want to participate in PAK-FA development and sub component manufacturing and still not buy the aircraft. It's no big deal.

    It's just business. Look at the NEURON UCAV... a number of countries doing R&D and assembly yet not one of them plan to buy the thing. It's just a way to advance the skills of participating members. Next time, maybe they will get a larger work share or build a UCAV themselves.

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    • A-29
      Rank 5 Registered User

      #42
      Brazilian government is under negotiations with France for Subs, Helicopters 9EC-725) and equipments for the Army. French President are coming here next December and probably the agreement will be signed. In this case the helicopters will be assembled locally at Helibras plant (Subsidiary of Eurocopter).

      Based on that, I think the chances for the Rafale are decreasing. Will be the Super Hornet (Legacy Hornets for the Navy) or Gripen NG......but I will not be surprised if the government gets those two, the first to replace the M2000s (first to be replaced) and the Gripen NG replaces both the F-5s and AMXs.

      Nae So Paulo is still at the dock and probably will be there for a long time. I hardly believe that the government will think in offer to buy Kitty Hawk, it is too expensive to maintain and operate and also we don't have an air wing. I have the opinion that the government must scrap the carrier and spread the naval aviations throughout the country (today 95% of the fleet are located in the state of Rio de Janeiro).

      Comment

      • swerve
        Rank 5 Registered User

        #43
        Originally posted by LoofahBoy View Post
        Like I said: French hookers and lotsa free booze.
        Sounds good to me.

        Originally posted by LoofahBoy View Post
        Dont mean to derail the thread, but aren't there future plans to put an AESA on the Rafale as well?
        Currently in production engineering development, I believe. Dassault first flew an AESA radar protoype on Rafale in 2003, having flown it in a testbed the year before. Thales have had plenty of time to get it right.
        Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
        Justinian

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        • swerve
          Rank 5 Registered User

          #44
          Originally posted by Distiller View Post
          On the other hand the APG-79, AIM-120C-7 and a wide selection of other cleared weapons is a word the Rafale can't match.
          Rafale should have Meteor by 2014. At the moment, the F-18E has nothing to match Mica IR. It's not one-way traffic.
          Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
          Justinian

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          • Loke
            Rank 5 Registered User

            #45
            Originally posted by LoofahBoy View Post
            Anyone know the range of the Gripen NG compared to the Rafale? Brazil is a big country, and I wonder if the Gripen could cut it?
            Gripen NG
            Ferry range: 4070 km
            Unrefuelled Maritime recon mission: 5 hours
            max range on internal fuel only: 2500 km

            With 6 a2a missiles Gripen NG will have a combat radius of 1300 km with 30 minutes on-station (Dutch presentation). Those 30 minutes could be converted to another 200 km or so, meaning that 1500 km missions should be possible. This is with two drop tanks; with more drop tanks even longer missions should be possible.

            According to the Dassault web page Rafale has a "radius of action" that is "more than 1000 nautical miles" (1850 km);


            L

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            • JackMS
              Rank 5 Registered User

              #46
              I've been accessing this first-class forum for years and this is my first post here.

              JackMS

              -----------------------------------------

              DEFESA@NET 01 Outubro 2008
              (http://www.defesanet.com.br/fx2/fab_01out08_e.htm)
              FAB 01 Outubro 2008
              Fora Area Brasileira
              Projeto F-X2

              Ministry of the Defense
              Command of the Brazilian Air Force

              CENTRO DE COMUNICAO SOICIAL DA AERONUTICA

              Brazilian Air Force Command Preselects
              candidates of Project F-X2

              The Command of the Brazilian Air Force informs that, in obedience to the cronogram of renewal of the fleet of the combat aircraft the Brazilian Air Force - FAB, completed plus a stage of the process of selection of the new multi-role fighter to be incorporated to the force.

              The Managemental Commission of Project F-X2 (CGPF-X2), instituted in 15th of May of 2008, lead the evaluation studies of the preselected aircraft (Super Boeing F-18E/F Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 Adv, Saab Gripen NG and Sukhoi SU-35), of form to elaborate a reduced list (shorts list) in this stage of the process.

              The concretion of this shorts list aimed to guarantee to meet the operational requirements for fighter aircraft multi-role established by the High Command of Brazilian Air Force and to allow to the deepening of the evaluations of the systems of weapons candidates who had been selected in this phase.

              The studies had had for base the information supplied for the companies in reply to the Request For Information - RFI, emitted in June of 2008. The data supplied by the participant companies had been evaluated in a systemic process, considering the following aspects: operational, logistic, technical, Commercial Compensation (offset) and technology transfer for the National Industry of Defense.

              From now, in the new stage of the selection process, the evaluations will go to concentrate in the following aircrafts of the shorts list (listed here in sequence alphabetical of the respective manufacturers):

              1 - BOEING (SUPER F-18 E/F HORNET),
              2 - DASSAULT (RAFALE) and
              3 - SAAB (GRIPEN NG).

              The 36 aircraft, that will integrate 1st lot, will have to be delivered from 2014, with useful life expectancy of, at least, 30 years. Thus, throughout the next years, it will have the substitution, gradual, of the current fighers Mirage 2000, F-5M and A-1M. The set of acquired knowledge and technological qualification in this acquisition will go to contribute so that Brazil will have conditions to produce or to participate in the production of a fighter of Fifth Generation in a medium and long run future.

              Finally, the Command of Brazilian Air Force states that this process represents an important advance for its Industry of Defense with lasting consequences, making possible strategic partnerships of long duration. In running of the next year, the vector will be selected and announced, so soon the subsequent phases are concluded.


              CENTRO DE COMUNICAO SOICIAL DA AERONUTICA
              Source: CECOMSAER
              Translation: DEFESA@NET

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              • signatory
                Rank 5 Registered User

                #47
                From the above text,

                this shorts list aimed to guarantee to meet the operational requirements for fighter aircraft multi-role established by the High Command of Brazilian Air Force
                Could this statement mean something in regards to the 3 rejected jets?

                The remaining ones is probably the most prepared of the 6 for the multirole requirement. With not just the basic stuff but also electronic attack, naval strike, recon pods and full LGB support. Generally speaking.

                Comment

                • GlobalPress
                  Senior Member

                  #48
                  Originally posted by Sintra View Post
                  A mix between price range and lack of political ties, something that the Dassault Rafale has a lot in Lulas entourage.



                  It was a derivation of the F-16 Block 60, almost identical to the "Indian" Viper.

                  A mix between capabilities and talent, something that the Dassault Rafale has a lot in aeronautic's entourage.

                  Comment

                  • F-111buff26
                    Rank 5 Registered User

                    #49
                    Rafale opens many options for brazil............ the air force model and the naval version for the navy and the possible purchase of CVFs.... would bring the cost of the units down(savings to be spent on CTOL equipment)????
                    Freedom isn't FREE

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                    • Loke
                      Rank 5 Registered User

                      #50
                      Originally posted by MadRat View Post
                      The three established swing role fighters have made the first cut. Since Brazil has neighbors with Flankers there is little doubt in my mind they will also reject Gripen NG simply because its unable to match the bigger foe.
                      The Gripen was developed by Sweden during the cold war; although it is a multirole plane, no doubt one of the primary objectives was that it should be able to match the soviet planes.

                      If it is not able to "match" the flankers you are implying that Gripen is a failure since it was specifically developed to match those aircrafts. I have never seen any indications that Gripen was considered a failure in Sweden, on the contrary. Sweden as a neutral country during the cold war was very serious about their defence; failure was not considered acceptable in those days. They did not develop the Gripen just to support domestic industry but because Gripen was considered to be a good defence solution, fully capable of matching the soviet/russian air craft.


                      Could you substantiate your claim that Gripen NG would fail to match the flankers?


                      L

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                      • ST-21
                        Rank 5 Registered User

                        #51
                        It's interesting to note that this is the first competition where the Super Hornet has made it to the finals (remember, Australia didn't consider any plane but the SH). Expect intense pressure from Boeing and very "sweet" deals to be offered to get an export order for the SH. Looks interesting.

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                        • JackMS
                          Rank 5 Registered User

                          #52
                          Originally posted by ST-21 View Post
                          It's interesting to note that this is the first competition where the Super Hornet has made it to the finals (remember, Australia didn't consider any plane but the SH). Expect intense pressure from Boeing and very "sweet" deals to be offered to get an export order for the SH. Looks interesting.
                          Recently Bob Gower (Vice President F/A-18 Programs) gave an interesting interview about Boeing proposal to a Brazilian military web magazine (http://www.alide.com.br/joomla/index...b-gower-boeing). Here same parts:

                          ()

                          BG: Within the "Request for Information" was an item that stated approximately 10 key technologies that Brazil wants to obtain. Some of these would have to be absorbed by R&D institutions, like CTA or ITA. Others, of course, would be more suitable for Embraer, and others would be useful for any of several local defense / aerospace suppliers.

                          ()

                          Alide: American fighters have repeatedly been perceived in Brazil as "not feasible", particularly because of restrictions in ToT. This proposal of the Super Hornet for the FAB could meet the demands related with source code access?

                          BG: Yes, it can. The political relationship between the U.S. and Brazil, two powers of great economic importance in the world, follow a trend of continuous improvement. Boeing is presenting the product here and clarifying doubts and if SH were selected, this business will be conducted through FMS program. Without the full and absolute support of the U.S. government, we have nothing to do here now.

                          ()

                          Alide: The U.S. Congress has authorized the sale of F-18E / F and its arms to Brazil?
                          BG: As we talk before, as this will be a sale via the FMS program, the fact that the U.S. government has authorized us to sell the Super Hornet Block 2 to Brazil is a clear evidence of comfort with this U.S. government business and the Brazil as a partner in the military sphere.

                          (...)

                          Comment

                          • signatory
                            Rank 5 Registered User

                            #53
                            Originally posted by Loke View Post
                            The Gripen was developed by Sweden during the cold war; although it is a multirole plane, no doubt one of the primary objectives was that it should be able to match the soviet planes.
                            That's true and when Sweden decided to go with the Gripen program we had 3% unemployment. The conservative government who passed the program with only 5 votes majority (out of 349) had also unlike the socialist govs little interest in supporting private industry with tax money.

                            This was done from military recommendations after evaluating the possible options and the Americans had submitted their binding offers in 1982. The evaluated US jets was considered unsuitable and would need major modifications to include better avionics and with hindsight it was a correct calculation to go with Gripen. Had they still said no to Gripen the US jets would still have been license built in the country by Saab. Just like HAL is building SU-30MKIs or Japan the F-15J.

                            The F-16 and F-18 would not have been convinsingly good enough against the best Russian aircraft coming online. At the time no one thought the Soviet union would even collapse so of course they also took into account post-SU27, MIG-29, MIG-31 aircraft. The Gripen avionics suite do some things most countries can still only dream about while also offering a jet that has very good maneuverability, speed and operational reliability.

                            That's probably why despite lacking the political weight the jet is actually exportable and on several shortlists today.

                            Comment

                            • Schorsch
                              Severely Transonic

                              #54
                              Originally posted by LoofahBoy View Post
                              Anyone know the range of the Gripen NG compared to the Rafale? Brazil is a big country, and I wonder if the Gripen could cut it?
                              I doubt the Rafale has any real range advantage over the Gripen. We have to accept that the Gripen will only carry 4 AAMs in long range config, but that is sufficient most of the time.
                              Publicly, we say one thing... Actually, we do another.

                              Comment

                              • vajt
                                Rank 5 Registered User

                                #55
                                Originally posted by Schorsch View Post
                                I doubt the Rafale has any real range advantage over the Gripen. We have to accept that the Gripen will only carry 4 AAMs in long range config, but that is sufficient most of the time.
                                Which goes back to the argument, how much more are people willing to pay for a small percentage improvement or even an enhanced option (such as carrying more AAMs) when they will rarely be used to their full potential. If the Gripen can offer 80% of what the F18 and Rafale can offer but at 70% of the purchase and operational cost, which option becomes more tempting for Brazil. Although obviosuly there is always the politcal game at play where the most obvious choice is not always made....

                                -----JT-----

                                Comment

                                • Sens
                                  Rank 5 Registered User

                                  #56
                                  Originally posted by signatory View Post
                                  Based on the official presentations from Saab this is some of the max useful loads on the new Gripen.

                                  ---------
                                  Gripen NG to carry 12 AAMs with 10 of them being BVR.

                                  Gripen NG to carry 8 GBU-12 together with 2 fuel drop tanks.

                                  Gripen NG to carry 7 x 1000 lbs PGM bombs

                                  Gripen NG to carry 4 x 2000 lbs PGM bombs (with 2 empty wing pylons and 2 wingtip missiles)

                                  Gripen NG to carry 5 x 1000 lbs PGM bombs together with 2 fuel drop tanks.

                                  Gripen NG to carry 8 x Naval Strike Missile + wingtips missiles.

                                  Gripen NG to carry 6 x Naval Strike Missile with 1 fuel drop tank + wingtip missiles.

                                  + LDP and Gun.

                                  The drop tanks is either 1175L or 1700L.

                                  ---

                                  In some regards opportunities with more loadout than the competition with the inherent flexibility in range/payload and low acquisition and low operating costs. The major negative factor IMO is that it's only a airframe in prototype status at the moment. But by the time the FAB is to decide there should be several hundreds of logged testflights on the new F414 based Demo.
                                  How about some practical claims, the FAB is in need of endurance at first.

                                  Comment

                                  • Schorsch
                                    Severely Transonic

                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by vajt View Post
                                    Which goes back to the argument, how much more are people willing to pay for a small percentage improvement or even an enhanced option (such as carrying more AAMs) when they will rarely be used to their full potential. If the Gripen can offer 80% of what the F18 and Rafale can offer but at 70% of the purchase and operational cost, which option becomes more tempting for Brazil. Although obviosuly there is always the politcal game at play where the most obvious choice is not always made....

                                    -----JT-----
                                    I doubt there is any true disadvantage. But it depends. If the Brazilian AF considers extra missiles in the air as advantage it may pick the Rafale. Fact is that Brazil does not await the onslaught of hundreds of fighters and any war versus an enemy in the north would not require total air domination (rather constant attrition).

                                    I think it would be a very interesting guessing game on how many occasions an aircraft have used more than 6 AAM in one engagement (duds don't count).
                                    Publicly, we say one thing... Actually, we do another.

                                    Comment

                                    • Schorsch
                                      Severely Transonic

                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by Sens View Post
                                      How about some practical claims, the FAB is in need of endurance at first.
                                      With 4-6 AAM and 3 drop tanks time on station shouldn't be any worse than that of a Rafale or a Typhoon. The Rafale or Typhoon offer better performance with 4-6 AAM I think, but I doubt supercruise is truly demanded by the FAB. If so they would be stupid to put the only aircraft truly capable of it from the list.
                                      Publicly, we say one thing... Actually, we do another.

                                      Comment

                                      • arthuro
                                        Rank 5 Registered User

                                        #59
                                        Most of you are focusing on Air to Air issue, but why overlooking AtG ?

                                        It's funny to see that people when comparing aircrafts speak 90% of the time of ATA capabilities!

                                        A purely masculine issue ?

                                        Comment

                                        • Speedy
                                          Rank 5 Registered User

                                          #60
                                          Dunno what happened here..... I was postin in another thread !
                                          Last edited by Speedy; 7th October 2008, 08:16. Reason: wrong thread

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