By: star49
- 24th September 2008 at 02:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
dude, it was delayed because the suppliers couldn't get the parts delivered on time. Can you read at all?
blame suppliers? It is the manufacture responsibility to built every thing on time. This planes does not include carbon fibre composites from Italy/Japan or new engine development. So the question of supplier simply cannot arise.
look at dates. http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90881/6496921.html
The first ARJ21-700 went off the general assembly in Shanghai Aircraft Manufacturing Factory in December 2007.
By: crobato
- 24th September 2008 at 03:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The delay is due to the avionics equipment coming from the US. As you know, these have to pass export restrictions and require approval. These equipment is needed for the plane to meet the standards used in international and US airports.
By: Hyperwarp
- 24th September 2008 at 03:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hui Tong has an update:
New
Posts: 3,396
By: star49
- 24th September 2008 at 04:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The delay is due to the avionics equipment coming from the US. As you know, these have to pass export restrictions and require approval. These equipment is needed for the plane to meet the standards used in international and US airports.
avionics is hardly reason for flight test delay. And first 200 to 300 are for Chinese market. So you wont this outside delivery in next 5 to 8 years atleast. and US government has open office right in China for its certification. It means there is alot of pressure on US government from US based suppliers to get it certified as soon possible to get more money by selling parts to this jet for Chinese market.
http://rc-europe.com/news/page8116.html
Rockwell Collins announces first delivery for ARJ21 regional jet
CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa (July 27, 2006) - Rockwell Collins announced Thursday that it will complete this summer the first delivery of avionics to AVIC I Commercial Aircraft Co. (ACAC) Ltd. of China for the new ARJ21 regional jet. Officials from both companies celebrated the milestone with a formal acceptance ceremony at Rockwell Collins headquarters in Cedar Rapids
By: tphuang
- 24th September 2008 at 04:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
avionics is hardly reason for flight test delay. And first 200 to 300 are for Chinese market. So you wont this outside delivery in next 5 to 8 years atleast. and US government has open office right in China for its certification. It means there is alot of pressure on US government from US based suppliers to get it certified as soon possible to get more money by selling parts to this jet for Chinese market.
that's not the only supplier they have. 40% of the suppliers for ARJ-21 are from outside of China. If the suppliers don't deliver, you can't assemble. It's that simple. As for why it got rolled out and still not have all the parts, do you think ships have all the electronics fitted when they first get moved into the water from dry dock? It simply did not have all the parts delivered.
And clearly, you don't read enough articles on airliner delays. Civilian airline projects continuously have delays due to supplier delivery issues.
New
Posts: 3,396
By: star49
- 24th September 2008 at 05:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
that's not the only supplier they have. 40% of the suppliers for ARJ-21 are from outside of China. If the suppliers don't deliver, you can't assemble. It's that simple. As for why it got rolled out and still not have all the parts, do you think ships have all the electronics fitted when they first get moved into the water from dry dock? It simply did not have all the parts delivered.
And clearly, you don't read enough articles on airliner delays. Civilian airline projects continuously have delays due to supplier delivery issues.
I read delays about various aircraft projects. Every aircraft is unique in some sense but there is nothing unique about ARJ-21 for causing it to delay. Who is biggest avionics supplier anyway?
This thing has practically nothing to do with avionics.
China Debuts ARJ-21
Dubbed Ziangfeng – Flying Phoenix – the ARJ 21 was rolled out last week in ceremonies at the Shanghai Aircraft Manufacturing Factory ushering in the first Chinese-built jet, an aircraft destined for the regional airline marketplace. Made by the China Aviation Industry Corp. I (AVIC I), the 90-seat regional jets's maiden flight ois scheduled for March. It has a range of 2,300 miles, according to one of two press services invited to the event – Xinhua News Agency. Deliveries are set to begin in the third quarter of 2009.
The Associated Press reported that the Federal Aviation Administration opened an office in Shanghai and is now working on safety standards with China’s General Administration on Civil Aviation. The aircraft was original scheduled to debut in 2005 but delays were caused by design problems, according to AP.
New
Posts: 3,010
By: MiG-23MLD
- 24th September 2008 at 05:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I read delays about various aircraft projects. Every aircraft is unique in some sense but there is nothing unique about ARJ-21 for causing it to delay. Who is biggest avionics supplier anyway?
This thing has practically nothing to do with avionics.
STAR49
Honestly why you want to underestimate the Chinese aviation industry? I am personally not against civil aviation and i think the dynamics of international globalization do not mean a single aircraft now is totally designed or built in a single country, much less a very advanced airliner or a civil aircraft that needs to meet very extrict safety parameters.
Even Boeing or Airbus can not do it in fact Airbus is an international program.
I suggest you instead of underestimating a civil program you should leave that attitude even despite other forum members also overestimate and even distort historical facts, you should simply not over critize what it seems to be an effort by the chinese to develop their country, and from my opinion the ARJ-21 is a good program and has nothing different from other civil aircraft programs
By: SOC
- 24th September 2008 at 05:39Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How long did the MiG MFI wait to fly because of a lack of actuators for the canards? It could be a simple component like that keeping the ARJ-21 out of the air.
New
Posts: 3,396
By: star49
- 24th September 2008 at 05:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Very good point. trying to compare component supplies in 90s Russia when every shop was closed with those who supply daily to Boeing/Airbus.
By: SOC
- 24th September 2008 at 07:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The point was not to make a Russia-China comparison, but to show that even a simple component can keep an aircraft on the ground. In the MFI's case it was the situation in the former USSR that kept the components from MiG. In China it could be a manufacturing issue of a small component, a shortage of materials to produce the relevant component, or some other minor situation which has nothing to do with the aircraft itself.
By: crobato
- 24th September 2008 at 07:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
avionics is hardly reason for flight test delay. And first 200 to 300 are for Chinese market. So you wont this outside delivery in next 5 to 8 years atleast.
GE Commercial Aviation orders five China-made ARJ 21 regional jets news
29 March 2008
Shanghai: General Electric's aircraft leasing arm has signed a preliminary agreement to buy five ARJ 21 regional jets, developed locally by Chinese aerospace major AVIC I. This is the first order for the aircraft from a major foreign customer.
Under a memorandum of understanding signed on Friday, GE Commercial Aviation Services agreed to buy five ARJ 21-700 planes, with an option for 20 more, said officials at AVICI Commercial Aircraft, the commercial jet division of AVIC I.
AVIC I unveiled the locally designed and produced ARJ 21or the "Flying Phoenix," last December and commercial deliveries have been promised from the third quarter of 2009.
However, AVICI has now announced that the ARJ 21's test flight has been postponed until after September, from its original test date this spring. It blamed delays in parts supplies as the reason for the postponement. It said that it was making efforts to ensure that the delay did not affect its delivery target.
Parts suppliers for the ARJ 21 include General Electric and Parker Hannifin.
ARJ-21 Program Announces First Flight Delay
ACAC announced today the delay of the planned first flight of ARJ21-700, due to the fact that supplier/suppliers of key systems were not able to provide necessary test conditions on time. Currently ACAC is making efforts to ensure on schedule delivery of key systems, including advanced flight system, so as to be able to deliver the ARJ21-700 to airline customers in 2009.
ARJ-21 Program Announces First Flight Delay
ACAC announced today the delay of the planned first flight of ARJ21-700, due to the fact that supplier/suppliers of key systems were not able to provide necessary test conditions on time. Currently ACAC is making efforts to ensure on schedule delivery of key systems, including advanced flight system, so as to be able to deliver the ARJ21-700 to airline customers in 2009.
Your link is from March. And this thing has been postponed so many times that u can blame almost anything for its delay. Prelimary agreement is not firm commitment. Firm commitments are still below 100. and they said themselves that it will take two years to reach production rate of 30 per year. And that under assumption that certification is achieved by 2009.
Your looking atleast 2015 before this gets any thing outside China.
New
Posts: 3,396
By: star49
- 24th September 2008 at 14:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
By: crobato
- 25th September 2008 at 02:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Your link is from March. And this thing has been postponed so many times that u can blame almost anything for its delay. Prelimary agreement is not firm commitment. Firm commitments are still below 100. and they said themselves that it will take two years to reach production rate of 30 per year. And that under assumption that certification is achieved by 2009.
Your looking atleast 2015 before this gets any thing outside China.
LOL. Aircraft orders are made in years in advance and so are ship orders. The fact is simply GE made an order. Orders for the ARJ-21 has already exceeded 170 on local orders alone.
ACAC signed LOI of 10 (ten) aircrafts with Joy Airlines on the ceremony of Joy Airlines¡¯ foundation held in people¡¯s hall, Beijing, on March 28, 2008. Until now, ARJ21-700 have got 181 domestic orders.
By: Hyperwarp
- 25th September 2008 at 02:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
why do you folks bother replying to 'you know who'? Next we will be seeing pages and pages of off-topic copy paste (including economics) from 'you know whos' wonderful sources...
By: tphuang
- 25th September 2008 at 03:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I read delays about various aircraft projects. Every aircraft is unique in some sense but there is nothing unique about ARJ-21 for causing it to delay. Who is biggest avionics supplier anyway?
This thing has practically nothing to do with avionics.
Crobato posted the link, that was the reason why it got the long delay from March.
We don't care that Russian technicians are helping China's spacewalk. This is not your promote Russian thread, if you haven't noticed.
Your link is from March. And this thing has been postponed so many times that u can blame almost anything for its delay. Prelimary agreement is not firm commitment. Firm commitments are still below 100. and they said themselves that it will take two years to reach production rate of 30 per year. And that under assumption that certification is achieved by 2009.
Your looking atleast 2015 before this gets any thing outside China.
If the suppliers still had not done all the deliveries by March, how would they have been able to deliver before hand?
Do you think GE or Nepal would put in those orders if they don't think they will get it until 2015? Don't make stuff up all the time.
New
Posts: 3,396
By: star49
- 25th September 2008 at 05:38Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
LOL. Aircraft orders are made in years in advance and so are ship orders. The fact is simply GE made an order. Orders for the ARJ-21 has already exceeded 170 on local orders alone.
ACAC signed LOI of 10 (ten) aircrafts with Joy Airlines on the ceremony of Joy Airlines¡¯ foundation held in people¡¯s hall, Beijing, on March 28, 2008. Until now, ARJ21-700 have got 181 domestic orders.
Letter of intent does not mean firm commitment. why ur misrepresenting reality just like on so many other issues in the past?
87 LOI converts into 14 aircraft at the most (read options) over 8 years period. very simple example.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/850320.stm
The US leasing corporation ILFC has signed a letter of intent to buy 87 Airbus aircraft, including five of the planned A3XX super jumbo airliners, Airbus Industrie announced at the Farnborough air show
http://utc.com/press/highlights/2003-09-05_gp7000.htm
East Hartford, CT and Evendale, OH –- International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC) has selected engines from the GE-P&W Engine Alliance for up to 14 new Airbus A380 aircraft.
The agreement, covering four firm and ten option A380s, is valued at $200 million for the firm aircraft and a total of $800 million if all options are exercised. This is the first firm engine order ILFC has placed for its A380 fleet.
Posts: 3,396
By: star49 - 24th September 2008 at 02:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
blame suppliers? It is the manufacture responsibility to built every thing on time. This planes does not include carbon fibre composites from Italy/Japan or new engine development. So the question of supplier simply cannot arise.
look at dates.
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90881/6496921.html
The first ARJ21-700 went off the general assembly in Shanghai Aircraft Manufacturing Factory in December 2007.
Posts: 6,409
By: crobato - 24th September 2008 at 03:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The delay is due to the avionics equipment coming from the US. As you know, these have to pass export restrictions and require approval. These equipment is needed for the plane to meet the standards used in international and US airports.
Posts: 3,187
By: Hyperwarp - 24th September 2008 at 03:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hui Tong has an update:
Posts: 3,396
By: star49 - 24th September 2008 at 04:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
avionics is hardly reason for flight test delay. And first 200 to 300 are for Chinese market. So you wont this outside delivery in next 5 to 8 years atleast. and US government has open office right in China for its certification. It means there is alot of pressure on US government from US based suppliers to get it certified as soon possible to get more money by selling parts to this jet for Chinese market.
Posts: 1,082
By: tphuang - 24th September 2008 at 04:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
that's not the only supplier they have. 40% of the suppliers for ARJ-21 are from outside of China. If the suppliers don't deliver, you can't assemble. It's that simple. As for why it got rolled out and still not have all the parts, do you think ships have all the electronics fitted when they first get moved into the water from dry dock? It simply did not have all the parts delivered.
And clearly, you don't read enough articles on airliner delays. Civilian airline projects continuously have delays due to supplier delivery issues.
Posts: 3,396
By: star49 - 24th September 2008 at 05:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I read delays about various aircraft projects. Every aircraft is unique in some sense but there is nothing unique about ARJ-21 for causing it to delay. Who is biggest avionics supplier anyway?
This thing has practically nothing to do with avionics.
Posts: 3,010
By: MiG-23MLD - 24th September 2008 at 05:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
STAR49
Honestly why you want to underestimate the Chinese aviation industry? I am personally not against civil aviation and i think the dynamics of international globalization do not mean a single aircraft now is totally designed or built in a single country, much less a very advanced airliner or a civil aircraft that needs to meet very extrict safety parameters.
Even Boeing or Airbus can not do it in fact Airbus is an international program.
I suggest you instead of underestimating a civil program you should leave that attitude even despite other forum members also overestimate and even distort historical facts, you should simply not over critize what it seems to be an effort by the chinese to develop their country, and from my opinion the ARJ-21 is a good program and has nothing different from other civil aircraft programs
Posts: 12,009
By: SOC - 24th September 2008 at 05:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How long did the MiG MFI wait to fly because of a lack of actuators for the canards? It could be a simple component like that keeping the ARJ-21 out of the air.
Posts: 3,396
By: star49 - 24th September 2008 at 05:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Very good point. trying to compare component supplies in 90s Russia when every shop was closed with those who supply daily to Boeing/Airbus.
Posts: 12,009
By: SOC - 24th September 2008 at 07:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The point was not to make a Russia-China comparison, but to show that even a simple component can keep an aircraft on the ground. In the MFI's case it was the situation in the former USSR that kept the components from MiG. In China it could be a manufacturing issue of a small component, a shortage of materials to produce the relevant component, or some other minor situation which has nothing to do with the aircraft itself.
Posts: 6,409
By: crobato - 24th September 2008 at 07:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not true.
Already a US customer.
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/avicgroup/20080329_ge.html
GE Commercial Aviation orders five China-made ARJ 21 regional jets news
29 March 2008
Shanghai: General Electric's aircraft leasing arm has signed a preliminary agreement to buy five ARJ 21 regional jets, developed locally by Chinese aerospace major AVIC I. This is the first order for the aircraft from a major foreign customer.
Under a memorandum of understanding signed on Friday, GE Commercial Aviation Services agreed to buy five ARJ 21-700 planes, with an option for 20 more, said officials at AVICI Commercial Aircraft, the commercial jet division of AVIC I.
AVIC I unveiled the locally designed and produced ARJ 21or the "Flying Phoenix," last December and commercial deliveries have been promised from the third quarter of 2009.
However, AVICI has now announced that the ARJ 21's test flight has been postponed until after September, from its original test date this spring. It blamed delays in parts supplies as the reason for the postponement. It said that it was making efforts to ensure that the delay did not affect its delivery target.
Parts suppliers for the ARJ 21 include General Electric and Parker Hannifin.
Posts: 6,409
By: crobato - 24th September 2008 at 07:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Oh it does.
http://www.acac.com.cn/enhtm/News/Message/20080328C101948.html
ARJ-21 Program Announces First Flight Delay
ACAC announced today the delay of the planned first flight of ARJ21-700, due to the fact that supplier/suppliers of key systems were not able to provide necessary test conditions on time. Currently ACAC is making efforts to ensure on schedule delivery of key systems, including advanced flight system, so as to be able to deliver the ARJ21-700 to airline customers in 2009.
Posts: 4,082
By: Deino - 24th September 2008 at 09:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Very nice picture ... sadly the number on the tail is too small to identify the unit.
Besides that there seems to be a different antenna-fit on the back-spine (I think I remember this one on an earlier bird at the CFTE) !
Cheers, Deino
Posts: 3,187
By: Hyperwarp - 24th September 2008 at 09:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Bingo....
that caught my eye too...
Posts: 3,396
By: star49 - 24th September 2008 at 13:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Your link is from March. And this thing has been postponed so many times that u can blame almost anything for its delay. Prelimary agreement is not firm commitment. Firm commitments are still below 100. and they said themselves that it will take two years to reach production rate of 30 per year. And that under assumption that certification is achieved by 2009.
Your looking atleast 2015 before this gets any thing outside China.
Posts: 3,396
By: star49 - 24th September 2008 at 14:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jszhZZpw8KvbElApGPkWEikezcBAD93D0JT00
Russian technicians to aid China's spacewalk
Posts: 6,409
By: crobato - 25th September 2008 at 02:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
LOL. Aircraft orders are made in years in advance and so are ship orders. The fact is simply GE made an order. Orders for the ARJ-21 has already exceeded 170 on local orders alone.
http://www.acac.com.cn/enhtm/News/Message/20080328C165044.html
ACAC signed LOI of 10 (ten) aircrafts with Joy Airlines on the ceremony of Joy Airlines¡¯ foundation held in people¡¯s hall, Beijing, on March 28, 2008. Until now, ARJ21-700 have got 181 domestic orders.
Posts: 3,187
By: Hyperwarp - 25th September 2008 at 02:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
why do you folks bother replying to 'you know who'? Next we will be seeing pages and pages of off-topic copy paste (including economics) from 'you know whos' wonderful sources...
back on topic...
Ahh... she is beauty
Posts: 1,082
By: tphuang - 25th September 2008 at 03:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Crobato posted the link, that was the reason why it got the long delay from March.
We don't care that Russian technicians are helping China's spacewalk. This is not your promote Russian thread, if you haven't noticed.
If the suppliers still had not done all the deliveries by March, how would they have been able to deliver before hand?
Do you think GE or Nepal would put in those orders if they don't think they will get it until 2015? Don't make stuff up all the time.
Posts: 3,396
By: star49 - 25th September 2008 at 05:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Letter of intent does not mean firm commitment. why ur misrepresenting reality just like on so many other issues in the past?
87 LOI converts into 14 aircraft at the most (read options) over 8 years period. very simple example.