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How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1?

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    #61
    Originally posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
    You are free to believe what you want, and i am not going to argue a topic already i have argued with you, if it suits you to think it was not a loss okay, for me it was and it is enough for me that.
    No point to convince you, you can live all your life thinking like that.
    If you can show me the manual of the Mirage F1 and we compare it to the MiG-23 then if you show me it was the better fighter i will change my opinion, but your position is not a technical one rather a political one and such argumenst do not work just repeat claims and counter claims, however i believe AIRWAR.ru about the superiority of the MiG-23ML over the Mirage F1
    You seem hooked on your manuals, one thing the French could never do is to produce a decent manual :diablo:

    My position is not political, I'm merely pointing out the facts which you seem to prefer to overlook. I would never be so childish as to claim one aircraft is better than another. A fighter is part of a system and that is what makes it work. Both fighters have there good and bad points. The system in place on the day is what will make one surperior to the other.
    pb::

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by Sens View Post
      I do see it similar. So there is no real difference in flying performance. It does depend on the tactical situation at a given moment and the pilots on the controls. Maybe you get an idea about the value of such data. A fighter without weapons and at minimum fuel is of little use in real combat.
      That is not necesarily true, since the MiG-23 has three wing sets it has three different rate of climbs, at 1km of altitude it has the same 220 m/s with both 45 deg and 72 deg wing sweep , but at 10km the 72 deg wing sweep allows it to double the 45 deg wing sweep`s rate of climb of 72 m/s.

      The Mirage F1 has no variable geometry wings, so it has not three rate of climbs and surely to have a higher rate of climb at 10km is better wing sweep of 72 deg.

      Same is with lower speeds and at 1km of altitude and at 45 deg sweep has a min turn radius of 800 meters at 500km/h an slightly bigger turn radius at 72 deg sweep and as speed increases so turn radius difference between both sweeps.


      But at 10000 meters of altitude is more convinient to have a 72 deg of wing sweep because the turn radius is smaller with that wing set.

      So they are not totally comparable.
      The airwar.ru is believeable because obviously each design has speeeds where each one is better respectively, the analysis made by them makes the MiG-23 better at speeds between 700km/h and 1100km/h.
      Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 30th September 2008, 15:31.

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by Mpacha View Post
        You seem hooked on your manuals, one thing the French could never do is to produce a decent manual :diablo:

        My position is not political, I'm merely pointing out the facts which you seem to prefer to overlook. I would never be so childish as to claim one aircraft is better than another. A fighter is part of a system and that is what makes it work. Both fighters have there good and bad points. The system in place on the day is what will make one surperior to the other.
        If you read this you will understand my position:

        That is not necesarily true, since the MiG-23 has three wing sets it has three different rate of climbs, at 1km of altitude it has the same 220 m/s with both 45 deg and 72 deg wing sweep , but at 10km the 72 deg wing sweep allows it to double the 45 deg wing sweep`s rate of climb of 72 m/s.

        The Mirage F1 has no variable geometry wings, so it has not three rate of climbs and surely to have a higher rate of climb at 10km is better wing sweep of 72 deg.

        Same is with lower speeds and at 1km of altitude and at 45 deg sweep has a min turn radius of 800 meters at 500km/h an slightly bigger turn radius at 72 deg sweep and as speed increases so turn radius difference between both sweeps

        .


        But at 10000 meters of altitude is more convinient to have a 72 deg of wing sweep because the turn radius is smaller with that wing set.

        So they are not totally comparable.
        The airwar.ru is believeable because obviously each design has speeeds where each one is better respectively, the analysis made by them makes the MiG-23 better at speeds between 700km/h and 1100km/h.


        i say that because you can not clearly prove what very likely the russian knew, the weaknesses and strengths of the MiG-23 design.

        For example when they tested the F-5 in Russia they concluded never to dogfight with an F-5 at low speeds of 700km/h since it will kill both the MiG-23M and MiG-21bis, both Cubans and Russians say the MiG-23 was more agile and they tell you what speeds and altitudes
        Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 30th September 2008, 15:33.

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
          That is not necesarily true, since the MiG-23 has three wing sets it has three different rate of climbs, at 1km of altitude it has the same 220 m/s with both 45 deg and 72 deg wing sweep , but at 10km the 72 deg wing sweep allows it to double the 45 deg wing sweep`s rate of climb of 72 m/s.

          The Mirage F1 has no variable geometry wings, so it has not three rate of climbs and surely to have a higher rate of climb at 10km is better wing sweep of 72 deg.

          Same is with lower speeds and at 1km of altitude and at 45 deg sweep has a min turn radius of 800 meters at 500km/h an slightly bigger turn radius at 72 deg sweep.


          But at 10000 meters of altitude is more convinient to have a 72 deg of wing sweep because the turn radius is smaller with that wing set.

          So they are not totally comparable.
          The airwar.ru is believeable because obviously each design has speeeds where each one is better respectively, the analysis made by them makes the MiG-23 better at speeds between 700km/h and 1100km.
          as speed increases so turn radius difference between both sweeps
          Stay serious. To manage such values at all -
          you have to be at the correct wing-setting, the correct speed, at a low fuel state and an experienced pilot on the controls to keep the optimum at that brief moment.
          There is nothing like a better speed, because 700 km/h is 700 km/h, when they ment the acceleration between 700 km/h to 1100 km/h. You are aware about some data of the Flogger, are you? That values given are in line with the 72 sweep. To get that acceleration performance, you have the correct wing-setting at all and in full burner already, which by the way is no good idea at such a low fuel load already. Normaly you are at 45 sweep at best around 700 km/h and in military. To change sweep and light-up the burner will take some seconds under such more typical conditions.
          To avoid misunderstandings, the Flogger is a high performance aircraft and none serious will underestimate that. It is no smart idea to take optimum values as granted in typical situations.
          In a "dragster race" the Flogger maybe the winner against the Mirage F1, but in a typical combat both are even and the outcome is related to the very situation at first. In my estimate the gains for the Flogger will rise at height, when as a Mirage F1 pilot I would try to stay low or medium at first.

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by Sens View Post
            Stay serious. To manage such values at all -
            you have to be at the correct wing-setting, the correct speed, at a low fuel state and an experienced pilot on the controls to keep the optimum at that brief moment.
            There is nothing like a better speed, because 700 km/h is 700 km/h, when they ment the acceleration between 700 km/h to 1100 km/h. You are aware about some data of the Flogger, are you? That values given are in line with the 72 sweep. To get that acceleration performance, you have the correct wing-setting at all and in full burner already, which by the way is no good idea at such a low fuel load already. Normaly you are at 45 sweep at best around 700 km/h and in military. To change sweep and light-up the burner will take some seconds under such more typical conditions.
            To avoid misunderstandings, the Flogger is a high performance aircraft and none serious will underestimate that. It is no smart idea to take optimum values as granted in typical situations.
            In a "dragster race" the Flogger maybe the winner against the Mirage F1, but in a typical combat both are even and the outcome is related to the very situation at first. In my estimate the gains for the Flogger will rise at height, when as a Mirage F1 pilot I would try to stay low or medium at first.
            Man you are free to speculate, but definitively without the Mirage F1 data for each specific speed and altitude all your speculation amounts to wishes at best.

            Airwar.ru gives values based probably upon studies done by the Russian military and the flight experience of Iraqi and Cuban pilots.
            The only thing i tried to let you know was the fact wing sweep has a direct impact in flight performance in the MiG-23 flight characteristics.

            If wing sweep has a direct impact is due to specific aerodynamic basics.
            small angles of wing sweep increase lift at high AoA, that is a basic since to land the MiG-23 or F-14 these fighters will use angles around 16 deg to 14 deg, however as drag increases, the lift drag ratio makes more agile the MiG-23 with a sweep angle of 72 deg at 10km of altitude.

            however since the MiG-23 is a very stable aircraft with its wing swept at an angle of 72 deg due to the aerodynamic center of lift shift, it is probable at higher speeds than 1100km when it starts using such angle the Mirage F-1 is more agile than the MiG-23

            The Mirage has a compromise, only one wing sweep, so it is possible the MiG-23ML having similar specification but a VG wing might have the edge at speeds from 700km/h to 1100km/h as claimed by Airwar.ru.
            Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 1st October 2008, 01:14.

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
              Man you are free to speculate, but definitively without the Mirage F1 data for each specific speed and altitude all your speculation amounts to wishes at best.

              Airwar.ru gives values based probably upon studies done by the Russian military and the flight experience of Iraqi and Cuban pilots.
              The only thing i tried to let you know was the fact wing sweep has a direct impact in flight performance in the MiG-23 flight characteristics.

              If wing sweep has a direct impact is due to specific aerodynamic basics.
              small angles of wing sweep increase lift at high AoA, that is a basic since to land the MiG-23 or F-14 these fighters will use angles around 16 deg to 14 deg, however as drag increases, the lift drag ratio makes more agile the MiG-23 with a sweep angle of 72 deg at 10km of altitude.

              however since the MiG-23 is a very stable aircraft with its wing swept at an angle of 72 deg due to the aerodynamic center of lift shift, it is probable at higher speeds than 1100km when it starts using such angle the Mirage F-1 is more agile than the MiG-23

              The Mirage has a compromise, only one wing sweep, so it is possible the MiG-23ML having similar specification but a VG wing might have the edge at speeds from 700km/h to 1100km/h as claimed by Airwar.ru.
              Here are the people to find for a first hand account about the weapons in question.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s_in_Angola

              http://www.geocities.com/sheepo74/angola.html
              Attached Files
              Last edited by Sens; 1st October 2008, 10:57.

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by Sens View Post
                Here are the people to find for a first hand account about the weapons in question.
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s_in_Angola

                http://www.geocities.com/sheepo74/angola.html
                I read long time ago a report by portuguese pilots i think is the same pilot you posted in front an angolan MiG-23, they said the MiG-23MLs were not inv ery good state and basicly were only good at flying fast, it is possible since many claimed the MiG-23s was basicly very complex to mantain.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Who is the hunter and whom is the hunted?

                  Go Huskers!

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
                    I read long time ago a report by portuguese pilots i think is the same pilot you posted in front an angolan MiG-23, they said the MiG-23MLs were not inv ery good state and basicly were only good at flying fast, it is possible since many claimed the MiG-23s was basicly very complex to mantain.
                    The one in front of Flogger C454 with flight helmet is col. 'P', a former SAAF instructor including combat time over Angola.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Angolan Mig-23ML

                      Hi Sens,

                      Do you have any other pictures of Angolan Mig-23's?

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by MadRat View Post
                        Who is the hunter and whom is the hunted?

                        As lions and cheetahs fail when they hunt sometimes more than ten times for one succesful hunt that Mirage F1 failed no kill that day

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by Sens View Post
                          The one in front of Flogger C454 with flight helmet is col. 'P', a former SAAF instructor including combat time over Angola.
                          Thanks, for the information

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by LoofahBoy View Post
                            Stemming from the perfect fighter discussion but not wanting to derail that thread...

                            I've always been under the impression that the Mirage F1 was comparable to the F-5 in performance, but lately I've been hearing it was much better; possibly even better than the Phantom, Viggen, or Mig-23 in some respects.

                            Just how good of a fighter was the Mirage F1?
                            an excellent fighter way above the F-5 and cetrainly f-4 it served us well in war

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by IRAF_PILOT View Post
                              an excellent fighter way above the F-5 and cetrainly f-4 it served us well in war
                              Completely forgotten you, how were Mirages rated compared to MiG-23s? I know you dislike the 23 (same as I do) but there surely were some positive sides of it. Thanks

                              Comment


                                #75
                                thanks flex,,to be honest due to superior radar and AIR-AIR capability the swing in air superiority to iraq happned after the arrival of the F-1EQ,,EVEN the iranians recognized that and all the successful tanker war,/ exocet via super frelon helicopters were top side cover with 2 F1EQ......
                                I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE FLOWN IT BUT I STICK TO MY RB!

                                Comment


                                  #76
                                  considering the F1 was pretty good in arid climates, ie africa and middle east, were sales never promoted in asia/australia?
                                  Freedom isn't FREE

                                  Comment


                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by F-111buff26 View Post
                                    considering the F1 was pretty good in arid climates, ie africa and middle east, were sales never promoted in asia/australia?
                                    When Australia was looking to replace their Mirage 3 I bet Dassault thought a F1 sale was a dead cert.
                                    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

                                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

                                    Comment


                                      #78
                                      Originally posted by Fedaykin View Post
                                      When Australia was looking to replace their Mirage 3 I bet Dassault thought a F1 sale was a dead cert.
                                      In the 80s the F1 were surpassed by the F-18, when France introduced the Mirage 2000 already.

                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        Hello all.

                                        on the "Old Iraqi Air Force" facebook group, there's a group of veterans putting up articles about the old air force.

                                        A recent post has the following:

                                        Colonel pilot Nafie Najim Al-Jubouri.
                                        From The former Iraqi Air Force
                                        Born 1964 – KIA 2003
                                        He graduated from the Greek Air Academy in 1986, he was one of the best pilot student at that time, he achieved golden sword award for high skilled performance, he had more than 1300 Flight hours until 2003.
                                        Colonel pilot Nafie Al-Jubouri was just first lieutenant pilot in the Gulf War "Desert storm" who managed to attain one of the aerial victories by the Iraqi Air Force in his Mirage F-1 No 4021 from 79th squadron of IrAF, after midnight of January 17-1991 exactly at 0306 AM, Colonel Nafie scrambled and took off from Al-Qadisiyah air base better to know H 2 west of Iraq, flying his Mirage F-1 on the first night of the war in order to root out and shoot-down Coalition aircraft bombing Iraq, when he received target info about U.S EF-111A northwest H 2, the sky of Iraq was totally covered by white lines of fired missiles due to the air combat, And coalition F-15s formations just in every five miles around, but the Eagles was exhausted in that moment because the Iraqi FoxBat was chasing them, however Colonel pilot Nafie across the darkness of that night with flashing explosions on the ground as well as in the sky and headed directly to intercept the target, and just a few minutes later the U.S EF-111A appeared on his radar screen, after identified the target he confirmed to the Ground Control it's enemy aircraft and request permission to open fire, seconds later he got the permission and simultaneously locked the target and fired single missile type Matra 530 directly toward to the U.S EF-111A, s/n 66-0023, the F-111 tried to Jamming and avoid the missile, but the Matra 530 hit the F-111 in the cockpit sent it to the ground.
                                        Click image for larger version

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                                        Interesting claim. However the US state that the EF111 with that number was lost in February not January, and on 17th Jan 3x F111s were damaged. Here's the US list http://www.rjlee.org/air/ds-aaloss/
                                        Last edited by sheytanelkebir; 30th October 2013, 23:07.

                                        Comment


                                          #80
                                          Some interesting chart here
                                          http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories...q-gulf.war.pdf

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