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How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1?

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    #41
    Originally posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
    It had advantages and they were clear, in fact this is a result, a SOuth african Mirage F1 shot down by a MiG-23ML



    The MiG-23ML were shot down by SAMs but none was by a Mirage F1
    sourcehttp://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/...23/cuba23.html
    At least the battle damage did force a crash landing, when the aircraft was used to repair one from another accident.
    What was the exchange ratio in that war?

    Comment


      #42
      Originally posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
      It had advantages and they were clear, in fact this is a result, a SOuth african Mirage F1 shot down by a MiG-23ML

      It wasn't shot down and it was the missile and not the aircraft that had the advantage? Why are we digging up old threads?
      pb::

      Comment


        #43
        Originally posted by Mpacha View Post
        It wasn't shot down and it was the missile and not the aircraft that had the advantage? Why are we digging up old threads?
        It was shot down, of course it was because it was put out of action thanks to battle damage, but showed some main drawbacks of the R-60 as it was shown in the 1982 Bekka valley combats when an F-15 made it back to its base.

        The main drawback is the Russians sacrificed warhead size to make the R-60 small, would it had been bigger the F-15 would had been shot down and the Mirage F1 would had never made it to base after been hit by a R-60.

        If you want to praise the Mirage F1 characteristics well the aircraft was a bit lucky since it was not inmediately shot down, but at the end was a lost and it counts as shot down for many Historians specially those in Russia and Cuba.

        However your question can be answered like this: The MiG-23 was a good aircraft but the R-60 needed a more powerful warhead or a bigger warhead

        You are free to have a different opinion, but not everyone in this world agree with such historical position you hold.
        Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 30th September 2008, 03:05.

        Comment


          #44
          Originally posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
          It was shot down, of course it was because it was put out of action thanks to battle damage, but showed some main drawbacks of the R-60 as it was shown in the 1982 Bekka valley combats when an F-15 made it back to its base.

          The main drawback is the Russians sacrificed warhead size to make the R-60 small, would it had been bigger the F-15 would had been shot down and the Mirage F1 would had never made it to base after been hit by a R-60.

          If you want to praise the Mirage F1 characteristics well the aircraft was a bit lucky since it was not inmediately shot down, but at the end was a lost and it counts as shot down for many Historians specially those in Russia and Cuba.

          However your question can be answered like this: The MiG-23 was a good aircraft but the R-60 needed a more powerful warhead or a bigger warhead

          You are free to have a different opinion, but not everyone in this world agree with such historical position you hold.
          That is correct in both ways. But we still miss your details about the exchange ratio. A single incident can be seen as luck or unlucky, whatever whoms view you do share about that.

          Comment


            #45
            Originally posted by Mpacha View Post
            It wasn't shot down and it was the missile and not the aircraft that had the advantage? Why are we digging up old threads?
            Who cares? Brits over Falklands had all-aspect AIM-9Ls against Argentinian Bravo models, does it mean the kills *don't count*?

            Comment


              #46
              Originally posted by flex297 View Post
              Who cares? Brits over Falklands had all-aspect AIM-9Ls against Argentinian Bravo models, does it mean the kills *don't count*?
              A small misunderstanding here. It was not about the weapon-system like the AAM, but the flying performance of a fighter. One did claim it was the superior flying performance of the Flogger, when the other did claim it was the AAM at first. The result is the same, a F-1 forced down and out of service, when the conclusions from that are different.

              Comment


                #47
                From memory, I think 2 Mirage F-1s were shot down by Cuban flown Migs. The second F-1 was shot down by a Mig-21.
                Cannot find the source. Anybody has any details/corrections?

                Comment


                  #48
                  Originally posted by UAZ View Post
                  From memory, I think 2 Mirage F-1s were shot down by Cuban flown Migs. The second F-1 was shot down by a Mig-21.
                  Cannot find the source. Anybody has any details/corrections?
                  Incorrect.

                  Major Arthur Piercy's F-1 was the only casualty from air to air combat suffered by the SAAF. No Mig-21 scored any combat kills in the Southern African theatre. He flew his damaged Mirage all the way home, and landed it. Unfortunately, due to hydraulic damage, his damaged brakes could not prevent his aircraft from overshooting the runway. It hit a rock with it's undercarriage which activated his ejection seat, leading to his confinement to a wheelchair from there-on...

                  This is my recollection of the events leading up to the accident.

                  It was approximately 1500B (local) on 27th September 1987 when all hell broke loose. There had been numerous call-outs previously which proved to be nothing at all, so when the "hot-line" started ringing there was very little reaction from us. However this time the call wasn't to go on cockpit standby like before, but rather a call to scramble immediately.

                  The letter I was writing went flying as I scrambled to get into the cockpit. In a matter of minutes we were screaming down the runway. I was lucky I was number two in the formation as it was about 45 deg C outside and the take-off was hair-raising. How numbers three, four, five and six got airborne I don't know.

                  After take-off we remained low level and set heading for the combat zone. It was our intention to remain low level for as long as possible to avoid being detected by the Angolan radars.

                  The order came to pitch about 10 minutes after take-off and up we soared like homesick angels.
                  His story continues here....

                  http://www.piercy.co.za/accident2_details.htm

                  The shoot-down resulted from the all-aspect IR AAM.

                  Comment


                    #49
                    Originally posted by wilhelm View Post
                    Incorrect.

                    Major Arthur Piercy's F-1 was the only casualty from air to air combat suffered by the SAAF. No Mig-21 scored any combat kills in the Southern African theatre. He flew his damaged Mirage all the way home, and landed it. Unfortunately, due to hydraulic damage, his damaged brakes could not prevent his aircraft from overshooting the runway. It hit a rock with it's undercarriage which activated his ejection seat, leading to his confinement to a wheelchair from there-on...



                    His story continues here....

                    http://www.piercy.co.za/accident2_details.htm

                    The shoot-down resulted from the all-aspect IR AAM.
                    In war you can not trust completly both sides, usually both sides lose aircraft South Africa Mirage F1s and Cuba (Angola) MiG-23s, both sides will tell you their respective versions and justify their loses.

                    This is a Cuban version of the events

                    http://www.granma.cu/ESPANOL/2005/di.../49piloto.html
                    The whole point is both sides lost aircraft and both sides claim victories, however if you compare the MiG-23ML to the Mirage F-1 you can see the MiG-23 was the better fighter due to a better acceleration and agility.

                    And this is proven by the fact no MiG-23ML was lost to air to air combat, independently if it is only one Mirage F1 lost as some say or two or more as some cuban sources claim supported by Ukranian or Russian historians

                    If you think the Mirage F1 was the only fighter to shot down F-14s other sources claim the MiG-23ML shot down too F-14s
                    http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/C...Iran_F-14_.htm

                    11th August 1984
                    IRIAF F-14A Tomcat 81st TFW Shot down by MiG-23ML South of Mahshahr crashed into the sea to the outskirts of Bandar Khomeini
                    Colonel Mohammed-Hashem All-e-Agha
                    KIA ejected



                    17th January 1987
                    IRIAF F-14A Tomcat TFB. 7 Shot down by MiG-23ML
                    Capt. Bahram Ghaneii. OK Assl-e Davtalab KIA


                    19th July 1988
                    IRIAF F-14A Tomcat TFB. 8 Shot down by Mirage F.1EQ-6

                    19th July 1988
                    IRIAF F-14A Tomcat TFB. 8 Shot down by Mirage F.1EQ-6

                    Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 30th September 2008, 12:45.

                    Comment


                      #50
                      No offence, but in war there is two sides to every story, and then the truth. if the south african claims were based on data from before 1992, then there would be a element of doubt to them, but after the breakdown of apartheid any details like this would have surfaced and been used in propaganda for the cubans and the like
                      Last edited by F-111buff26; 30th September 2008, 12:57.
                      Freedom isn't FREE

                      Comment


                        #51
                        Originally posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
                        It was shot down, of course it was because it was put out of action thanks to battle damage, but showed some main drawbacks of the R-60 as it was shown in the 1982 Bekka valley combats when an F-15 made it back to its base.

                        The main drawback is the Russians sacrificed warhead size to make the R-60 small, would it had been bigger the F-15 would had been shot down and the Mirage F1 would had never made it to base after been hit by a R-60.

                        If you want to praise the Mirage F1 characteristics well the aircraft was a bit lucky since it was not inmediately shot down, but at the end was a lost and it counts as shot down for many Historians specially those in Russia and Cuba.

                        However your question can be answered like this: The MiG-23 was a good aircraft but the R-60 needed a more powerful warhead or a bigger warhead

                        You are free to have a different opinion, but not everyone in this world agree with such historical position you hold.
                        No it was not shot down(aircraft was not a "total loss"?), battle damaged yes, main damage was caused by the work being done on the runway at Rundu which entail removing the barrier nets etc. otherwise it would have been a different story. Had the SAAF Missiles worked then you would have seen different results. The Cubans had better missiles, all that the MiG-23 had in it's favour was speed which enable them to out run the Mirage cannon fire.

                        Not everyone agree's with your opinion either and that includes pilots that have flown both in combat.
                        pb::

                        Comment


                          #52
                          Originally posted by flex297 View Post
                          Who cares? Brits over Falklands had all-aspect AIM-9Ls against Argentinian Bravo models, does it mean the kills *don't count*?
                          Depends how you define a kill doesn't it? My point is that this is a poor example to use as proof of the better fighter. An all-aspect missile affords more chances of a kill to the side who has it, so how does that make it a better performing aircraft? This is a single example and I find it weak because it was not a clean kill and the pilot lacked the ability to carry his attack through.
                          pb::

                          Comment


                            #53
                            Originally posted by Mpacha View Post
                            No it was not shot down(aircraft was not a "total loss"?), battle damaged yes, main damage was caused by the work being done on the runway at Rundu which entail removing the barrier nets etc. otherwise it would have been a different story. Had the SAAF Missiles worked then you would have seen different results. The Cubans had better missiles, all that the MiG-23 had in it's favour was speed which enable them to out run the Mirage cannon fire.

                            Not everyone agree's with your opinion either and that includes pilots that have flown both in combat.
                            You are free to believe what you want, and i am not going to argue a topic already i have argued with you, if it suits you to think it was not a loss okay, for me it was and it is enough for me that.
                            No point to convince you, you can live all your life thinking like that.
                            If you can show me the manual of the Mirage F1 and we compare it to the MiG-23 then if you show me it was the better fighter i will change my opinion, but your position is not a technical one rather a political one and such argumenst do not work just repeat claims and counter claims, however i believe AIRWAR.ru about the superiority of the MiG-23ML over the Mirage F1
                            Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 30th September 2008, 13:10.

                            Comment


                              #54
                              Originally posted by Mpacha View Post
                              Depends how you define a kill doesn't it? My point is that this is a poor example to use as proof of the better fighter. An all-aspect missile affords more chances of a kill to the side who has it, so how does that make it a better performing aircraft? This is a single example and I find it weak because it was not a clean kill and the pilot lacked the ability to carry his attack through.
                              A kill does not need to be defined. Everything that puts the other aircraft out of combat is a kill. Whether this happens by a direct impact of an AIM-54 Phoenix or by making your opponent fart uncontollably and suffocate in the cockpit is of secondary importance. Whether the other aircraft crashes, burns, belly-lands or makes it back to base and whether it is later repaired, cut to parts, cannibalized, scrapped or left to burn is also unimportant.

                              If you fail to accept a kill because of uneven missiles used, then ok, let us also disregard kills against Serbian MiGs which had no radars working. Let us also disregard IDF/AF kills scored by highly experienced pilots against Arab rookies. Let us also disregard Henneman's (F-15C) kill of Iraqi PC-9 whose pilot surrendered and ejected without a single shot. And finally, let us also disregard other USAF kills over Iraq scored against unarmed aircraft that were disengaging to Iran and had absolutely no intentions to get involved in any combat, whatsoever.

                              Sounds fair, doesn't it? I really wonder how many kills will be left in the end
                              Last edited by flex297; 30th September 2008, 13:39.

                              Comment


                                #55
                                Originally posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
                                In war you can not trust completly both sides, usually both sides lose aircraft South Africa Mirage F1s and Cuba (Angola) MiG-23s, both sides will tell you their respective versions and justify their loses.

                                This is a Cuban version of the events

                                http://www.granma.cu/ESPANOL/2005/di.../49piloto.html
                                The whole point is both sides lost aircraft and both sides claim victories, however if you compare the MiG-23ML to the Mirage F-1 you can see the MiG-23 was the better fighter due to a better acceleration and agility.

                                And this is proven by the fact no MiG-23ML was lost to air to air combat, independently if it is only one Mirage F1 lost as some say or two or more as some cuban sources claim supported by Ukranian or Russian historians

                                If you think the Mirage F1 was the only fighter to shot down F-14s other sources claim the MiG-23ML shot down too F-14s
                                http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/C...Iran_F-14_.htm

                                11th August 1984
                                IRIAF F-14A Tomcat 81st TFW Shot down by MiG-23ML South of Mahshahr crashed into the sea to the outskirts of Bandar Khomeini
                                Colonel Mohammed-Hashem All-e-Agha
                                KIA ejected



                                17th January 1987
                                IRIAF F-14A Tomcat TFB. 7 Shot down by MiG-23ML
                                Capt. Bahram Ghaneii. OK Assl-e Davtalab KIA


                                19th July 1988
                                IRIAF F-14A Tomcat TFB. 8 Shot down by Mirage F.1EQ-6

                                19th July 1988
                                IRIAF F-14A Tomcat TFB. 8 Shot down by Mirage F.1EQ-6

                                When you are shure about your source, there is no need to distract from that.
                                Acceleration capability of a fighter is linked to initial climb rate at low level.
                                The initial climb-rate of the F-1C is over 200 m/sec.
                                The initial climb-rate of the MiG-23ML is?
                                Just to start with.
                                Max speed low 1472 km/h or Mach 1,2 versus 1350 km/h or Mach 1,1.

                                Comment


                                  #56
                                  Here the computer-translation from that link to make up the own mind about that.
                                  The war was between 1975-1995.
                                  The last SA-forces left Angola in August 1988 in exchange the withdrawl of Cuban forces. History does have some surprises.
                                  See the EO advisers and were some did come from.

                                  N A C I O N A LN A C I O N A L

                                  Havana, On December 1, 2005 La Habana, 1 de Diciembre de 2005

                                  The unforgettable flight of Juan Francisco AlfonsoEl vuelo inolvidable de Juan Francisco Alfonso
                                  FOR IVAN TERRERO —de Gramna Internacional —POR IVAN TERRERO —de Gramna Internacional—

                                  THE losses of fuel were profuse. His possibilities of surviving were coming down to the minimum with every second of flight. To be catapulted or to realize a forced landing with the belly of the plane were the only exits. The events that they continued forced the pilot to choose for the last one.LAS prdidas de combustible eran profusas. Sus posibilidades de sobrevivir se reducan al mnimo con cada segundo de vuelo. Catapultarse o realizar un aterrizaje forzoso con la barriga del avin eran las nicas salidas. Los eventos que siguieron obligaron al piloto a optar por la ltima.

                                  Doval, today lieutenant colonel of the Cuban Air Force.Doval, hoy teniente coronel de la Fuerza Area cubana.

                                  In this extreme circumstance there was captain Juan Francisco Alfonso Doval (more known like Doval), today Lieutenant colonel of the department of Air Force of the Revolutionary Armed forces (FAR), that February 11, 1988 when in fulfillment of an action of bombing rasante, on the South of Cuito Cuanavale, it was impressed by the hostile ack-ack. En esta circunstancia extrema se encontraba el capitn Juan Francisco Alfonso Doval (ms conocido como Doval), hoy Teniente Coronel del departamento de Fuerza Area de las Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias (FAR), aquel 11 de febrero de 1988 cuando en cumplimiento de una accin de bombardeo rasante, al Sur de Cuito Cuanavale, fue impactado por la artillera antiarea enemiga.

                                  Alfonso Doval, Cuban pilot that like many others internationalist fulfilled mission in the people's republic of Angola, graduated on January 3, 1978 in Krasnodar, city of the Southwest of Russia on the banks of the river Kubn, in the North of the mountain range of the Caucasus. There type specialized in the piloting of airships of combat fighter - interceptor, like the MIG-23, named Flogger, according to the western press, for the office of design Mikoyan-Gurievich. Alfonso Doval, piloto cubano que como muchos otros cumpli misin internacionalista en la Repblica Popular de Angola, se gradu el 3 de enero de 1978 en Krasnodar, ciudad del Sudoeste de Rusia a orillas del ro Kubn, en el Norte de la cordillera del Cucaso. All se especializ en el pilotaje de aeronaves de combate tipo caza-interceptores, como el MIG-23, denominado Flogger, segn la prensa occidental, de la oficina de diseo Mikoyan-Gurievich.

                                  Exactly this year commemorates 30 anniversary of the Cuban Military Mission in Angola, and Alfonso agreed to narrate to us this passage, which could cost him the life, happened in his second mission in this African nation, to which Cuban - angolanas divided in November of the year 1987como part of the reinforcement sent to the troops with a view to pushing the eminent attack back for Cuito Cuanavale of the Forces of Defense of South Africa (SADF, initials in English). Justamente este ao se conmemora el 30 aniversario de la Misin Militar Cubana en Angola, y Alfonso accedi a narrarnos este pasaje, que pudo costarle la vida, acontecido en su segunda misin en esa nacin africana, a la cual parti en noviembre del ao 1987como parte del refuerzo enviado a las tropas cubano-angolanas con vistas a rechazar el eminente ataque por Cuito Cuanavale de las Fuerzas de Defensa de Sudfrica (SADF, siglas en ingls).

                                  After receiving a rapid flight update, Alfonso, along with other pilots, it set off towards the South, first in the Lubango airport and then more to the east, in the Menongue airfield. For that one then the control had turned to this base in the point where from the principal combative actions would begin for air towards the south and Southeast of the geography angolana. In fact, the biggest number of air incursions related to the defense of Cuito Cuanavale, it went out of this airport.Tras recibir una actualizacin rpida de vuelo, Alfonso, junto a otros pilotos, parti hacia el Sur, primero en el aeropuerto de Lubango y luego ms al Este, en el aerdromo de Menongue. Para ese entonces el mando haba convertido a esa base en el punto desde donde se iniciaran las principales acciones combativas por aire hacia el sur y sudeste de la geografa angolana. De hecho, el mayor nmero de incursiones areas relacionadas con la defensa de Cuito Cuanavale, sali de este aeropuerto.

                                  “Aquel day I detached at the dawn in a device MIG-23ML like pilot number (denomination of the second member) in a couple of flight that was agreeing with Lieutenant colonel Armando Gonzlez, who was flying in leader's condition ”, Doval comments.“Aquel da despegu al amanecer en un aparato MIG-23ML como piloto nmero (denominacin del segundo integrante) en una pareja de vuelo que conformaba con el Teniente Coronel Armando Gonzlez, quien volaba en condicin de lder”, comenta Doval.

                                  “La mission was consisting basically of a bombing rasante to 50 meters high against groups of the South African Forces of Defense (SADF) that were besieging Cuito Cuanavale and had in a slightly complex situation to the troops Cuban - angolanas , tells the pilot while it places the cap of the uniform on the table to liberate his hands and to support this way his story.“La misin consista bsicamente en un bombardeo rasante a 50 metros de altura contra agrupaciones de las Fuerzas de Defensa Sudafricanas (SADF) que asediaban a Cuito Cuanavale y tenan en una situacin algo compleja a las tropas cubano-angolanas”, explica el piloto mientras coloca la gorra del uniforme sobre la mesa para liberar sus manos y apoyar as su narracin.

                                  That morning the cloudiness was quite low, to approximately 300 meters, therefore both airships had to realize the flight over the clouds and carry the passage out doing the navigation calculations for instruments, considering the inability to observe the area. Aquella maana la nubosidad estaba bastante baja, a unos 300 metros, por lo que ambas aeronaves tuvieron que realizar el vuelo por encima de las nubes y efectuar la travesa haciendo los clculos de navegacin por instrumentos, dada la imposibilidad de observar el terreno.

                                  “Tras to conquer the space of timed flight we go out justly on the target and we did, as it was foreseen, the throwing of the bombs and returned to the base without mishaps ”, he continues.“Tras vencer el lapso de vuelo cronometrado salimos justo encima del objetivo e hicimos, como estaba previsto, el lanzamiento de las bombas y regresamos a la base sin contratiempos”, prosigue.

                                  “No it spent a lot of time of ours arrived at the airfield and the control raised to us to repeat the action, but in this occasion he arranged that the shot was realized in an individual way, with difference of a minute between one and other and not as it had been executed earlier. Scarcely there were artilladas the ships —continu — we detach, and during the passage, the same way for on the clouds, we take distance to support the time of prearranged flight ”, Alfonso specifies while it had a short rest in the chair resembling his position in the cabin. “No pas mucho tiempo de nuestro arribo al aerdromo y el mando nos plante repetir la accin, pero en esta ocasin dispuso que el tiro se realizara de manera individual, con diferencia de un minuto entre uno y otro y no como se haba ejecutado antes. Apenas fueron artilladas las naves —continu— despegamos, y durante la travesa, igualmente por sobre las nubes, tomamos distancia para mantener el tiempo de vuelo prefijado”, puntualiza Alfonso mientras se recostaba en la silla semejando su postura en la cabina.

                                  Again the navigation calculations were indicating to the pilot leader his position on the target. Without hesitating it was thrown towards the enemy in a violent sting of 60 grades and it carries the shot out to enter later the long one climbed, supporting nearly 7 gravities on his body; 60 seconds later Alfonso realizes a similar maneuver to execute the throwing, but on having left the cloudy formations and having gone out flying over the area, he notices that was a little turned away from the target. Nuevamente los clculos de navegacin le indicaban al piloto lder su posicin sobre el objetivo. Sin vacilar se lanz hacia el enemigo en una violenta picada de 60 grados y efecta el tiro para entrar posteriormente en una prolongada trepada, soportando cerca de 7 gravedades sobre su cuerpo; 60 segundos despus Alfonso realiza una maniobra similar para ejecutar el lanzamiento, pero al abandonar las formaciones nubosas y salir sobrevolando el terreno se percata de que estaba algo desviado del objetivo.

                                  Before the above mentioned situation the navigator according to prompter does the indications to him so that it begins again a draft of agreement that takes it up to the target now removed to one kilometer of his position. Ante dicha situacin el navegante en funcin de apuntador le hace las indicaciones para que reinicie un giro de acomodamiento que lo lleve hasta el objetivo, ahora alejado a un kilmetro de su posicin.

                                  Exactly when this draft realized the South African troops they sight it and, shortly after liberating the deadly load on the target, the airship is reached, apparently, by some barrier of shot of ack-ack that perforated the tanks of fuel of the wing and a bullet had been united in the stabilizer (rudder to change the height). Justamente cuando realizaba este giro las tropas sudafricanas lo avistan y, poco despus de liberar la carga mortfera sobre el blanco, la aeronave es alcanzada, al parecer, por alguna barrera de tiro de artillera antiarea que perfor los tanques de combustible del ala y un proyectil se haba trabado en el estabilizador (timn para cambiar la altura).

                                  “Nunca had been impressed by it —afirma —, I felt that the plane began to vibrate. With a movement of the cane of control that terrible sensation disappeared, I took again the control to the breast and accelerated the engine to look for potency. ”“Nunca haba sido impactado —afirma—, sent que el avin comenzaba a vibrar. Con un movimiento del bastn de mando aquella terrible sensacin desapareci, llev nuevamente el mando al pecho y aceler el motor para buscar potencia.”

                                  “Sobrevol the clouds and during this ascent maneuver I notice that the plane was losing combustible enough, on having observed how there were illuminated in a consecutive way all the lamps of signaling that in the cabin indicate the levels in the tanks ”, and it does a movement with the right hand as if it was throwing towards itself the device of control of the ship.“Sobrevol las nubes y durante esa maniobra de ascenso me percato de que el avin perda bastante combustible, al observar cmo se iluminaban de manera consecutiva todas las lmparas de sealizacin que en la cabina indican los niveles en los tanques”, y hace un movimiento con la mano derecha como si tirara hacia s el dispositivo de control de la nave.

                                  The lamps in the panels of the cabin were warning insistently on the serious breakdown in the deposits. On having raised the head and having observed for the rear-view mirror, he could verify the abundant escapes of the fuel that by both semiwings was pulverized towards the ambience across the breaks caused by the impacts.Las lmparas en los paneles de la cabina advertan insistentemente sobre la seria avera en los depsitos. Al levantar la cabeza y observar por el retrovisor, pudo comprobar las abundantes fugas del carburante que por ambas semialas se pulverizaba hacia la atmsfera a travs de las fracturas ocasionadas por los impactos.

                                  A multitude of emotions was waving him. Nevertheless, the equanimity reigned on the fear, and there could inform for radio the events before enfilar the course of return, conscious that the losses would not allow to the engine to be supported working in a lot of time. The distance that had to cover even the track was about 180 kilometers.Una multitud de emociones le agitaban. Sin embargo, la ecuanimidad rein sobre el temor, y pudo informar por radio lo sucedido antes de enfilar el rumbo de regreso, consciente de que las prdidas no le permitiran al motor mantenerse funcionando por mucho tiempo. La distancia que deba cubrir hasta la pista rondaba los 180 kilmetros.

                                  During the preparation of this type of air operation, the control it always reckons for a landing area for emergency cases, which in general is near to the average point of the passage and where there remains in the state of ready a group of search and rescue provided with a helicopter. Considering his place the ready area relapsed into a track of ground located in the town of Longa, and although it was not assembling very good conditions it was guaranteeing, at least ultimately, a catapultaje or a forced landing. Durante la preparacin de este tipo de operacin area, el mando siempre tiene prevista una zona de aterrizaje para casos de emergencia, que por lo general est cercano al punto medio de la travesa y donde permanece en estado de listo un grupo de bsqueda y salvamento dotado de un helicptero. Dada su ubicacin la zona dispuesta recay en una pista de tierra ubicada en el poblado de Longa, y aunque no reuna muy buenas condiciones garantizaba, al menos en ltima instancia, un catapultaje o un aterrizaje forzoso.

                                  “Al to appreciate the serious of the situation and because it kept on flying on the clouds, I requested authorization to go to this place. On having come, I began a soft descent and after emerging of the cloudy veils the track appeared, I joust at the head of the nose of the plane ”, he says simultaneously that his small pupils seem to smooth a face visibly tensed on having recalled that event. “Al apreciar lo grave de la situacin y debido a que continuaba volando sobre las nubes, solicit autorizacin para dirigirme a ese lugar. Al llegar comenc un descenso suave y luego de emerger de los velos nubosos apareci la pista, justo al frente de la nariz del avin”, dice a la vez que sus pequeas pupilas parecen suavizar un rostro visiblemente tensionado al rememorar aquel suceso.

                                  “Bast to realize only one I turn of job and practically without reservations in the deposits I drove the lever of deployment of the undercarriage. ”“Bast realizar un solo giro de acomodo y prcticamente sin reservas en los depsitos accion la palanca de despliegue del tren de aterrizaje.”

                                  Apparently the ravages caused on the glider spread in some measurement towards part of the hydraulic system, since it noticed a certain delay in the exit of the amounts of the train, and after considering the fuel lack to be the closeness of the track more to repeat traffic and to do a new attempt, the operation lever decided to return to his initial position and realize a forced landing with the belly of the plane.Al parecer los estragos ocasionados sobre el planeador se extendieron en alguna medida hacia parte del sistema hidrulico, puesto que not un cierto retardo en la salida de los montantes del tren, y tras considerar la cercana de la pista ms la carencia de combustible para repetir trfico y hacer un nuevo intento, decidi volver la palanca de accionamiento a su posicin inicial y realizar un aterrizaje forzoso con la barriga del avin.

                                  “Cuando the altimeter revealed to me that 10 was between 12 meters I extinguished the engine to face the track and the silence he took possession of the brief moments that were separating me from that undeferrable collision ”, Alfonso describes while the air seems to be cut in the enclosure. “Cuando el altmetro me revel que estaba entre los 10 12 metros apagu el motor para enfrentar la pista y el silencio se apoder de los breves instantes que me separaban de aquella inaplazable colisin”, describe Alfonso mientras el aire parece cortarse en el recinto.

                                  The time began to become exhausted. The ground was feigning to accelerate his approach movement towards the ship. The first blow turned out to be chilling. The slide of the fuselage on the irregular and soft surface of the track of ground, joined at the high speed with which the gliding was developing they provoked the appearance of successive jumps and shakes that were making be in danger the integrity of the airship and his crew member, on having brought them near, with every erratic movement, I (overturn) a catastrophic capotaje.El tiempo comenzaba a agotarse. La tierra aparentaba acelerar su movimiento de aproximacin hacia la nave. El primer golpe result escalofriante. El deslizamiento del fuselaje sobre la superficie irregular y blanda de la pista de tierra, unido a la alta velocidad con que se desarrollaba el planeo provocaron la aparicin de sucesivos saltos y sacudidas que hacan peligrar la integridad de la aeronave y su tripulante, al aproximarlos, con cada movimiento errtico, a un catastrfico capotaje (vuelco).

                                  Everything was happening extremely rapidly. In an attempt for diminishing the speed and shortening the career, the pilot inclines towards the front to drive the mechanism of exit of the parachute of braking, any more on not having remained firmly submitted with the harnesses to the chair of ejection (catapult), it received a strong blow in the face with the cane of control that it caused you would be breaks in the nasal dividing wall and the lips.Todo aconteca extremadamente rpido. En un intento por disminuir la velocidad y acortar la carrera, el piloto se inclina hacia el frente para accionar el mecanismo de salida del paracadas de frenado, mas al no quedar firmemente sujetado con los arneses a la silla de eyeccin (catapulta), recibi un fuerte golpe en el rostro con el bastn de mando que le ocasion serias fracturas en el tabique nasal y los labios.

                                  Finally, the robust one MIG-23ML stopped. With the gory face it could be dismantled of him and to go to the rescue helicopter while he was observing the deep rut in the ground that was revealing that risky maneuver that could cost him the life. The doctor of on board of the group of rescue assisted it immediately and they evacuated it promptly towards the Menongue hospital.Por fin, el robusto MIG-23ML se detuvo. Con el rostro ensangrentado pudo desmontarse de l y dirigirse al helicptero de rescate mientras observaba el profundo surco en la tierra que revelaba aquella arriesgada maniobra que pudo costarle la vida. El mdico de a bordo del grupo de salvamento lo asisti de inmediato y lo evacuaron con urgencia hacia el hospital de Menongue.

                                  Days later, in Cuba, it was taken control surgically by specialists maxilofaciales. An incredibly rapid recovery allowed him to return to conclude his mission, now like flight instructor in Luanda.Das ms tarde, en Cuba, fue intervenido quirrgicamente por especialistas maxilofaciales. Una recuperacin increblemente rpida le permiti regresar a concluir su misin, ahora como instructor de vuelo en Luanda.

                                  Doval realized nearly 67 combative actions during the fulfillment of his two missions internationalists in Angola, and he was, along with the rest of the personnel of flight, a technician and engineer, a bastion decisive to reach the air supremacy so needed in that theater of military operations in order to assure the advance of the troops and the success in the following combative actions that they led to the final victory on the National Union for the Entire Independence of Angola (UNITA) and the South African Forces of Defense (SADF).Doval realiz cerca de 67 acciones combativas durante el cumplimiento de sus dos misiones internacionalistas en Angola, y fue, junto al resto del personal de vuelo, tcnico e ingeniero, un baluarte decisivo para alcanzar la supremaca area tan necesitada en aquel teatro de operaciones militares con el fin de asegurar el avance de las tropas y el xito en las acciones combativas siguientes que condujeron a la victoria final sobre la Unin Nacional para la Independencia Total de Angola (UNITA) y las Fuerzas de Defensa Sudafricanas (SADF).

                                  In his first mission (1985-1986) it fulfilled services of exploration and night interception of Hrcules C-130, of North American construction, which were supplying the UNITA in the Huambo region, in the north of Cuito.En su primera misin (1985-1986) cumpli servicios de exploracin e intercepcin nocturna de los Hrcules C-130, de construccin norteamericana, que abastecan a la UNITA en la regin de Huambo, por el Norte de Cuito.

                                  The Cuban pilots never hesitated before the fulfillment of a mission in any circumstance. The disposition with which they were setting off to fight, and hour did not matter for them or place, was impressive. Los pilotos cubanos jams vacilaron ante el cumplimiento de una misin en cualquier circunstancia. La disposicin con que partan a combatir, sin importarles hora o lugar, era impresionante.

                                  The MIG-23ML conquered, undoubtedly, in the South of Angola, the superiority and the mastery of the air space over the South African Air Force (SAAF, initials in English). On September 27, 1987 the SAAF lost his first Mirage F1 knocked down by a MIG-23ML and from this moment the hostile fighters avoided the direct contact with the MIG. Of November from the same year to January of the following one these formidable fighters carried out more than 1 000 combat missions in support to the Popular Armed forces of Liberation of Angola (FAPLA) and braked the advance of the SADF and the UNITA towards Cuito Cuanavale, forcing them to move only at night, and to put on a mask very well during the day. Los MIG-23ML conquistaron, indudablemente, en el Sur de Angola, la superioridad y el dominio del espacio areo sobre la Fuerza Area Sudafricana (SAAF, siglas en ingls). El 27 de septiembre de 1987 la SAAF perdi su primer Mirage F1 derribado por un MIG-23ML y desde ese instante los cazas enemigos evitaron el contacto directo con los MIG. De noviembre de ese mismo ao a enero del siguiente estos formidables cazas llevaron a cabo ms de 1 000 misiones de combate en apoyo a las Fuerzas Armadas Populares de Liberacin de Angola (FAPLA) y frenaron el avance del SADF y la UNITA hacia Cuito Cuanavale, obligndolos a moverse slo de noche, y a enmascararse muy bien durante el da.



                                  THE MIG-23 IN THE DEFENSE OF CUITO CUANAVALELOS MIG-23 EN LA DEFENSA DE CUITO CUANAVALE



                                  The defense of Cuito Cuanavale was the biggest battle in the history of the Black Africa, and she had consequences that decided the war in favor of angolanos and Cuban.La defensa de Cuito Cuanavale fue la batalla ms grande en la historia del Africa negra, y tuvo consecuencias que decidieron la guerra a favor de angolanos y cubanos.

                                  On December 15, 1987 the SADF began the "Operation Hooper", for the purpose of, along with the UNITA, destroying to the group of the FAPLA located in the surroundings of Cuito Cuanavale. For it they initiated the harassment of the local airfield using shells type G5 and G6, perfectly masked and with a 42 km scope, which forced his defenders to limit the employment of the airfield for the MIG, although not this way with the helicopters Mi-8 and Mi-24, which kept on operating from there.El 15 de diciembre de 1987 las SADF comenzaron la "Operacin Hooper", con la finalidad de, junto a la UNITA, destruir a la agrupacin de las FAPLA ubicada en los alrededores de Cuito Cuanavale. Para ello iniciaron el hostigamiento del aerdromo del lugar empleando obuses tipo G5 y G6, perfectamente enmascarados y con un alcance de 42 km, que oblig a sus defensores a limitar el empleo del aerdromo por los MIG, aunque no as con los helicpteros Mi-8 y Mi-24, los cuales continuaron operando desde all.

                                  Contrary to the principal target, which derived in his design and construction like Fighter - interceptor, the thickness of the missions of the MIG-23ML and MIG-23UB went from attack to ground, that is to say, like fighter bombers, although also they fulfilled missions of exploration, interception and air coverage. Contrariamente al objetivo principal, que deriv en su diseo y construccin como Caza-Interceptor, el grueso de las misiones de los MIG-23ML y MIG-23UB fue de ataque a tierra, es decir, como cazabombarderos, aunque tambin cumplieron misiones de exploracin, intercepcin y cobertura area.

                                  The Cuban pilots could extract perfectly, of the magnificent technical characteristics of these fighters for Russian manufacture, the maximum of profit and effectiveness. Los pilotos cubanos saban sacar perfectamente, de las magnficas caractersticas tcnicas de estos cazas de fabricacin rusa, el mximo de provecho y efectividad.

                                  This way, his radio of action and capacity of combative load (that was turning to that of the devices MIG-21), in addition to his possibilities of (versatility) being unfolded to execute another type of operations from the air, they turned in the most important factor for the victory.As, su radio de accin y capacidad de carga combativa (que doblaba al de los aparatos MIG-21), adems de sus posibilidades de desdoblarse (versatilidad) para ejecutar otro tipo de operaciones desde el aire, se convirtieron en un importantsimo factor para el triunfo.

                                  In the morning of January 13, 1988 the first big attack happened to Cuito, but the aggressors met an unexpected defense, and only they managed to advance 3 km in some points of the front.En la maana del 13 de enero de 1988 se produjo el primer gran ataque a Cuito, pero los agresores se encontraron con una defensa inesperada, y slo lograron avanzar 3 km en algunos puntos del frente.

                                  For the bad state of the time, the South African control thought that the MIG would not detach and they gathered together openly to carry the second attack out in the evening, without masking conditions and in narrow armoured vehicles formations. The enemy was not late in paying similar tactical error. Por el mal estado del tiempo, el mando sudafricano pens que los MIG no despegaran y se agruparon abiertamente para efectuar un segundo ataque por la tarde, sin condiciones de enmascaramiento y en estrechas formaciones de blindados. El enemigo no tard en pagar semejante error tctico.

                                  For surprise of the attackers, the time improved lightly, and immediately the MIG-21Bis and MIG-23ML detached of the Menongue artillados airfield with one ton of bombs each one. The South African group is surprised, and large falls were caused to him, simultaneously that numerous teams are destroyed. Without losing time the Cuban control appreciates the situation and the blow repeats another two times, but duplicating the tonnage of combative load for airship and establishing an escort constituted by 4 MIG-23ML, which were carrying in his throwing beams air-to-air missiles type R-24 and R-60 if there appear the Mirage F1 of the South African Air Force. Para sorpresa de los atacantes, el tiempo mejor ligeramente, y de inmediato los MIG-21Bis y MIG-23ML despegaron del aerdromo de Menongue artillados con una tonelada de bombas cada uno. La agrupacin sudafricana es sorprendida, y le fueron ocasionadas cuantiosas bajas, a la vez que son destruidos numerosos equipos. Sin perder tiempo el mando cubano aprecia la situacin y repite el golpe otras dos veces, pero duplicando el tonelaje de carga combativa por aeronave y estableciendo una escolta constituida por 4 MIG-23ML, que portaban en sus vigas de lanzamiento misiles aire-aire tipo R-24 y R-60 por si aparecen los Mirage F1 de la Fuerza Area Sudafricana.

                                  This evening, the MIG realize 22 missions, beating in, with nearly 32 tons of bombs, more the fire of the artillery and the Cuban T-55, to the enemy, who after the loss of numerous teams weighed like tanks Olifants, armored means and other vehicles, desists from the attack and moves back. Esa tarde, los MIG realizan 22 misiones, demoliendo, con cerca de 32 toneladas de bombas, ms el fuego de la artillera y los T-55 cubanos, al enemigo, que tras la prdida de numerosos equipos pesados como tanques Olifants, medios blindados y otros vehculos, desiste del ataque y se retira.

                                  The SADF and the UNITA initiate another strong offensive, on February 25 in the dawn, being illuminated by flares, but it is pushed back again. In this opportunity the aviation realizes 52 missions and throws 26 tons of bombs and rockets.El SADF y la UNITA inician otra fuerte ofensiva, el 25 de febrero por la madrugada, iluminndose con bengalas, pero es nuevamente rechazado. En esta oportunidad la aviacin realiza 52 misiones y arroja 26 toneladas de bombas y cohetes.

                                  During this month the MIG-23ML begin the hunting for the shells G5 and G6, which were whipping all the time to the troops.Durante este mes los MIG-23ML comienzan la caza de los obuses G5 y G6, que hostigaban todo el tiempo a las tropas.

                                  To raise the effectiveness of his blows, the Cuban artillery throws bullets fumgenos in the middle of the hostile lines, and manages to mark with accuracy the target to the MIG-21 and MIG-23, which they were attacking from the flight rasante. This day the combat was so intense that only the South Africans shot 700 bullets of 155 mm of G5, 36 rockets of Walkirie and 66 mortar grenades.Para elevar la efectividad de sus golpes, la artillera cubana lanza proyectiles fumgenos en medio de las lneas enemigas, y consigue marcar con exactitud el objetivo a los MIG-21 y MIG-23, que atacaban desde el vuelo rasante. Ese da el combate fue tan intenso que slo los sudafricanos dispararon 700 proyectiles de 155 mm de G5, 36 cohetes de Walkirie y 66 granadas de mortero.

                                  On March 1 a fifth attack takes place and 23 initiate the last attempt of advance which colophon would be the hecatomb for the aggressor. Again Cuban - angolanas supports the aviation intensely the troops in the defense.
                                  Attached Files
                                  Last edited by Sens; 30th September 2008, 14:06.

                                  Comment


                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by Sens View Post
                                    When you are shure about your source, there is no need to distract from that.
                                    Acceleration capability of a fighter is linked to initial climb rate at low level.
                                    The initial climb-rate of the F-1C is over 200 m/sec.
                                    The initial climb-rate of the MiG-23ML is?
                                    Just to start with.
                                    Max speed low 1472 km/h or Mach 1,2 versus 1350 km/h or Mach 1,1.
                                    Armed with weapons the MiG-23ML will do its best at Mach 0.9, this is 220M/s but this is at 1km of altitude and armed with two R-23s, unarmed will do better as some sources say, however at lower or higher speeds it will increase or decrease
                                    Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 30th September 2008, 14:19.

                                    Comment


                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by flex297 View Post
                                      A kill does not need to be defined. Everything that puts the other aircraft out of combat is a kill. Whether this happens by a direct impact of an AIM-54 Phoenix or by making your opponent fart uncontollably and suffocate in the cockpit is of secondary importance. Whether the other aircraft crashes, burns, belly-lands or makes it back to base and whether it is later repaired, cut to parts, cannibalized, scrapped or left to burn is also unimportant.

                                      If you fail to accept a kill because of uneven missiles used, then ok, let us also disregard kills against Serbian MiGs which had no radars working. Let us also disregard IDF/AF kills scored by highly experienced pilots against Arab rookies. Let us also disregard Henneman's (F-15C) kill of Iraqi PC-9 whose pilot surrendered and ejected without a single shot. And finally, let us also disregard other USAF kills over Iraq scored against unarmed aircraft that were disengaging to Iran and had absolutely no intentions to get involved in any combat, whatsoever.

                                      Sounds fair, doesn't it? I really wonder how many kills will be left in the end
                                      Correct and wrong in the same way. All are aware, that we have soft and hard kills. Even, when we do leave aside the very important soft-kills, we do have still problems with the judgement of hard kills.
                                      The Russians f.e. do claim, that some battle damage does justify a kill, because, that has to be repaired at least and keep that very fighter out of battle for some time. When they do not stick to that counting the other way around. Just an example about that. During WW2 several thousand IL-2 Stormovik were forced down, but a lot of that were recovered and repaired to enter battle again. The first loss of that was denied for pschological or political reasons, whatever you will choose.
                                      The USA had ample of resupplies and did claim wo that much easier.
                                      The Israelis did not enjoy that and did rebuilt even heavy damaged examples.
                                      All that examples do show, there is no international consent about losses, when the Eastern way is the least reliable, because they have double standards about that.
                                      Common standard is, that every aircraft, which does suffer some battle damage and will not be rebuilt can be claimed a kill. Even that is not fault prove, because it is difficult to distinguish between other causes and battle damage sometimes.
                                      An Israeli F-4 did return from a mission with some damage to be repaired. A few days later the F-4 did crash after a mission without hazards. Nominal it was a technical failure, when the Israeli did judge that as a w/o, related to the former battle damage.
                                      So such "body-counts" are done at first to claim some kind of success for all to see. After the ceasefire all parties did find out if they achieved their political goal or not. :diablo:

                                      Comment


                                        #59
                                        Originally posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
                                        Armed with weapons the MiG-23ML will do its best at Mach 0.9, this is 220M/s but this is at 1km of altitude and armed with two R-23s, unarmed will do better as some sources say, however at lower or higher speeds it will increase or decrease
                                        I do see it similar. So there is no real difference in flying performance. It does depend on the tactical situation at a given moment and the pilots on the controls. Maybe you get an idea about the value of such data. A fighter without weapons and at minimum fuel is of little use in real combat.

                                        Comment


                                          #60
                                          Originally posted by flex297 View Post
                                          A kill does not need to be defined. Everything that puts the other aircraft out of combat is a kill. Whether this happens by a direct impact of an AIM-54 Phoenix or by making your opponent fart uncontollably and suffocate in the cockpit is of secondary importance. Whether the other aircraft crashes, burns, belly-lands or makes it back to base and whether it is later repaired, cut to parts, cannibalized, scrapped or left to burn is also unimportant.

                                          If you fail to accept a kill because of uneven missiles used, then ok, let us also disregard kills against Serbian MiGs which had no radars working. Let us also disregard IDF/AF kills scored by highly experienced pilots against Arab rookies. Let us also disregard Henneman's (F-15C) kill of Iraqi PC-9 whose pilot surrendered and ejected without a single shot. And finally, let us also disregard other USAF kills over Iraq scored against unarmed aircraft that were disengaging to Iran and had absolutely no intentions to get involved in any combat, whatsoever.

                                          Sounds fair, doesn't it? I really wonder how many kills will be left in the end
                                          What on earth are you babbling about? We are not discussing kills but rather an example put forward as to what supposibly makes a better fighter. So rather prove to me how this "kill" mentioned proves that the MiG-23 is a better fighter?? My view is that taken into proper context, it does not!
                                          pb::

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