Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

F-35 price tag holding steady..........

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Z1pp0
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Oct 2005
    • 206

    #61
    unit LIFE TIME cost

    Originally posted by swerve View Post
    ...
    December 2007 SAR - 2456 aircraft
    Then-year 298,842.8
    2002 210,014.5
    Unit - then$ 121.7
    Unit - 2002$ 85.5
    ...

    Not necisarily directed to swerve's comment but why does evryone talk almost exclusivly about the initial unit (flyaway) costs. Isn't the real objective of the commonality unit LIFE TIME cost? It's hard if not impossibel to predict the future but does someone have the numbers for the projected F-35 unit lifetime costs? Numbers for things like yearly maintenace costs, MTBF, personel education, infrastructure investsments or anything that is required for F-35 operations. And if possibel the same numbers for another aircraft like the F-16 for comparison.

    \\Dan
    Latencia Profecionalis

    Comment

    • swerve
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jun 2005
      • 13610

      #62
      Originally posted by Z1pp0 View Post
      Not necisarily directed to swerve's comment but why does evryone talk almost exclusivly about the initial unit (flyaway) costs. Isn't the real objective of the commonality unit LIFE TIME cost? It's hard if not impossibel to predict the future but does someone have the numbers for the projected F-35 unit lifetime costs? Numbers for things like yearly maintenace costs, MTBF, personel education, infrastructure investsments or anything that is required for F-35 operations. And if possibel the same numbers for another aircraft like the F-16 for comparison.

      \\Dan
      It's certainly interesting, but also much harder to get reliable information on than acquisition costs - and they're not easy to pin down.
      Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
      Justinian

      Comment

      • bring_it_on
        2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
        • Jun 2004
        • 12480

        #63
        Originally posted by Z1pp0 View Post
        Not necisarily directed to swerve's comment but why does evryone talk almost exclusivly about the initial unit (flyaway) costs. Isn't the real objective of the commonality unit LIFE TIME cost? It's hard if not impossibel to predict the future but does someone have the numbers for the projected F-35 unit lifetime costs? Numbers for things like yearly maintenace costs, MTBF, personel education, infrastructure investsments or anything that is required for F-35 operations. And if possibel the same numbers for another aircraft like the F-16 for comparison.

        \\Dan
        You must remember that right now a lot of things are ANALYSIS and TALK and talk is cheap , and everyone has a different opinion

        One can try and understand some of the requirments for AFFORDABILITY (throughout the aquisition and operational program) of the JSF , by reading some of the requirments that were set (benchmarked mainly too the F-16 ) .


        A good start may be -

        THE NEXT GENERATION ATTACK AIRCRAFT - AFFORDABILITY AND MISSION NEEDS

        It is a RAND publication and is available for less then 14$
        Old radar types never die; they just phased array

        Comment

        • bring_it_on
          2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
          • Jun 2004
          • 12480

          #64
          Pentagon gives conditional OK for F-35 production


          http://www.star-telegram.com/business/story/587673.html
          Old radar types never die; they just phased array

          Comment

          • Otaku
            Senior Member
            • Jun 2007
            • 1410

            #65
            "Get the pigeon, get the pigeon..."

            F-35B inventor talks on YouTube:

            http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...n-youtube.html

            Comment

            • bring_it_on
              2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
              • Jun 2004
              • 12480

              #66
              Originally posted by Otaku View Post
              "Get the pigeon, get the pigeon..."

              F-35B inventor talks on YouTube:

              http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...n-youtube.html
              Pretty good english for a russian
              Old radar types never die; they just phased array

              Comment

              • Otaku
                Senior Member
                • Jun 2007
                • 1410

                #67
                Originally posted by bring_it_on View Post
                Pretty good english for a russian
                I think his toupee's russian

                Comment

                • Z1pp0
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 206

                  #68
                  Originally posted by bring_it_on View Post
                  ...
                  A good start may be -

                  THE NEXT GENERATION ATTACK AIRCRAFT - AFFORDABILITY AND MISSION NEEDS

                  It is a RAND publication and is available for less then 14$
                  ty bringit. I will look in to it.

                  \\Dan
                  Latencia Profecionalis

                  Comment

                  • Guest's Avatar
                    Guest

                    #69
                    Originally posted by bring_it_on View Post
                    Pretty good english for a russian

                    The aft nozzle clearly has influence from the Russian Yak-41. That said, I don't remember it having a lift-fan like the F-35???? Which, is really what makes the Lightning superior to previous STOVL Types..........along with internal Fuel, Weapons, and Stealth!

                    Comment

                    • Z1pp0
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Oct 2005
                      • 206

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Scooter View Post
                      The aft nozzle clearly has influence from the Russian Yak-41. That said, I don't remember it having a lift-fan like the F-35???? Which, is really what makes the Lightning superior to previous STOVL Types..........along with internal Fuel, Weapons, and Stealth!
                      Actuallt the Yak-141 have 2 lift fans. Just like the the Yak-38. But they don't have a shaft connecting them to the main engine. They are independent and this has been quoted as the main reason for the claimed poor safty record for both types. Well see if and how the F-35B's shaft driven lift-fan will be better or not.

                      Also AFAIK LM and Yakolev did some 'reasearch' together in the 90's. Probably more of a deal for LM to get some (theoretical) experience with this configuration. The shaft-driven lift-fan configuration sertanly looks better on paper than the individual pairs. But is it? Time will tell! :diablo:

                      \\Dan
                      Latencia Profecionalis

                      Comment

                      • Guest's Avatar
                        Guest

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Z1pp0 View Post
                        Actuallt the Yak-141 have 2 lift fans. Just like the the Yak-38. But they don't have a shaft connecting them to the main engine. They are independent and this has been quoted as the main reason for the claimed poor safty record for both types. Well see if and how the F-35B's shaft driven lift-fan will be better or not.

                        Also AFAIK LM and Yakolev did some 'reasearch' together in the 90's. Probably more of a deal for LM to get some (theoretical) experience with this configuration. The shaft-driven lift-fan configuration sertanly looks better on paper than the individual pairs. But is it? Time will tell! :diablo:

                        \\Dan

                        Like the Yak-38 the Yak-141 had lift engines not a lift fan...........

                        Comment

                        • MisterQ
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2008
                          • 475

                          #72
                          The F-35B is a terrible way to go STOVL/VTOL, it's actually a step back from the true vectored thrust of the harrier, and adding all that weight and complexity isn't exactly bright either

                          Comment

                          • Guest's Avatar
                            Guest

                            #73
                            Originally posted by MisterQ View Post
                            The F-35B is a terrible way to go STOVL/VTOL, it's actually a step back from the true vectored thrust of the harrier, and adding all that weight and complexity isn't exactly bright either

                            Let's see supersonic performance and cooler thrust in the vertical......Sorry, but the numbers alone would disagree with your accessment.

                            Comment

                            • swerve
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jun 2005
                              • 13610

                              #74
                              Originally posted by Z1pp0 View Post
                              Actuallt the Yak-141 have 2 lift fans. Just like the the Yak-38. But they don't have a shaft connecting them to the main engine. They are independent and this has been quoted as the main reason for the claimed poor safty record for both types. Well see if and how the F-35B's shaft driven lift-fan will be better or not.

                              Also AFAIK LM and Yakolev did some 'reasearch' together in the 90's. Probably more of a deal for LM to get some (theoretical) experience with this configuration. The shaft-driven lift-fan configuration sertanly looks better on paper than the individual pairs. But is it? Time will tell! :diablo:

                              \\Dan
                              IIRC the main idea LM got from Yakovlev was the swivelling main nozzle. The F-35B has a Rolls-Royce equivalent. As far as the lift-engine arrangement goes, I suspect the Yak-141 showed LM its drawbacks, & prompted them to look for a better system.
                              Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                              Justinian

                              Comment

                              • Distiller
                                Talent on Loan from God
                                • Oct 2003
                                • 4760

                                #75
                                The swivel-nozzle is not a Yakovlev invention. It was first (?) used on the German-U.S. VJ-101E, aka Advanced VSTOL Tactical Fighter Weapon System (AVS) from the mid-1960's.

                                The big idea of the F-35 blower is cold air. It eliminates the hot-gas reingestion problem.
                                Only possible with advanced materials. It was done before by Focke-Wulf, on a much smaller scale, though - was a project that looked like a Ryan XV-5, but used shafts instead of bleed-air to power the fans.

                                Evolution of actually built auxiliary lift engines:
                                Type -- Thrust -- Weight -- Length -- Diameter
                                RB.162 -- 4400lbs -- 275lb -- 52in -- 26in
                                XJ99 -- 8800lbs -- 500lb -- 60in -- 25in
                                RD-41 -- 9000lbs -- 650lb -- 63in -- 25in
                                F-35 SDLF -- ~20000lbs -- ~1900lb -- ~60in -- 50in

                                Shows the blower-gearbox-clutch-shaft complex is not light (even though I have to say my SDLF weight is an estimation only), and the volumetric weight also not stellar. It's just cold, and that solves a lot of problems for VTOL ops.

                                The SDLF assembly of the F-35B must make for some interesting CoG problems. Any idea how they solve that?
                                "Distiller ... arrogant, ruthless, and by all reports (including his own) utterly charming"

                                Comment

                                • swerve
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jun 2005
                                  • 13610

                                  #76
                                  Originally posted by Distiller View Post
                                  The swivel-nozzle is not a Yakovlev invention. It was first (?) used on the German-U.S. VJ-101E, aka Advanced VSTOL Tactical Fighter Weapon System (AVS) from the mid-1960's....
                                  Ah yes - the Rolls-Royce RB.153.
                                  Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                                  Justinian

                                  Comment

                                  • Guest's Avatar
                                    Guest

                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by swerve View Post
                                    IIRC the main idea LM got from Yakovlev was the swivelling main nozzle. The F-35B has a Rolls-Royce equivalent. As far as the lift-engine arrangement goes, I suspect the Yak-141 showed LM its drawbacks, & prompted them to look for a better system.


                                    Good point.......

                                    Comment

                                    • Otaku
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Jun 2007
                                      • 1410

                                      #78
                                      Back on topic, though not mentioned specifically, the weak $ may have dire long-term consequences for BAE Systems' UK production of F-35 components & maybe even the Italian assembly line:

                                      http://www.janes.com/news/defence/bu...0422_1_n.shtml

                                      Comment

                                      • Z1pp0
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Oct 2005
                                        • 206

                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by Scooter View Post
                                        Like the Yak-38 the Yak-141 had lift engines not a lift fan...........
                                        So true! soz

                                        \\Dan
                                        Latencia Profecionalis

                                        Comment

                                        • Z1pp0
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Oct 2005
                                          • 206

                                          #80
                                          Originally posted by swerve View Post
                                          ...As far as the lift-engine arrangement goes, I suspect the Yak-141 showed LM its drawbacks, & prompted them to look for a better system.
                                          Thank you swerve this was realy what I wanted to say.

                                          Now I am gonna go curse on some bean conters that are closing yet another airbase here in sweden. F21 Lule is getting axed. It has nothing to do with the F-35 price tag other than even more 2nd hand Gripens compeating for orders. sigh..

                                          \\Dan
                                          Latencia Profecionalis

                                          Comment

                                          Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                          Collapse

                                           

                                          Working...
                                          X