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RAF Eurofighter Typhoons and IAF Su-30 MKIs Match-Up to Their Potentials In Their Fir

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  • sferrin
    Rank 5 Registered User

    RAF Eurofighter Typhoons and IAF Su-30 MKIs Match-Up to Their Potentials In Their Fir

    RAF Eurofighter Typhoons and IAF Su-30 MKIs Match-Up to Their Potentials In Their First-Ever Aerial Combat


    (Source: Indian Ministry of Defence; issued July 7, 2007)



    Much was at stake of its reputation, when for the first-time-ever, the Royal Air Force's (RAF) Eurofighter Typhoon, developed by a consortium of European manufacturers and recently inducted into the RAF, was to engage in any kind of an aerial combat with any non-RAF/NATO fighter.

    The Indian Air Force's (IAF) Sukhoi-30 MKI air superiority fighters, which are at Waddington, UK for the bilateral air 'Exercise Indradhanush-2007', had an opponent for the befitting duel.

    The operational part of the 'Exercise Indradhanush-2007' began with a series of 1 vs 1 air combat sorties. Both variants landed with their much-touted reputations intact as each side tested their potentials with their adversary in the air to their limits. These sorties were premised not entirely on having winners or losers but more for their evaluator and training values as encapsulated in the objectives. Both sides ended-up sharing an enhanced respect for each other's capabilities both in terms of training values, and combat potentials of the diverse aerial platforms.

    While the RAF fielded some of their most-experienced and highly-qualified pilots, some of them being very senior performance evaluators in active service, the IAF pilots were a mix of 'young to middle-level pilots' from the 'Rhinos' squadron. The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKI's observed superior manouevring in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated. The IAF pilots on their part were also visibly impressed by the Typhoon's agility in the air.

    While it does not imply to say that the 1 vs 1 air combat sorties were meant for backslapping each other, it may be understood that in today's aerial combat scenarios of 'beyond visual range' (BVR) capabilities of air platforms, it is highly unlikely that any of the modern-day fighters will ever get into a situation that warrants extreme close air combat, as in the situation simulated in the 1 vs 1 sorties. With a 'kill' criterion of front-gun ranges being mostly under 1,000 metres and a visual tracking envelope behind the target for only up to a 60-degree cone mostly for most fighter aircraft of the world, the unlikely scenario gets more exemplified.

    But the irony also lies in the fact that while there is a number of counter and counter-counter measures to make the modern missiles with claims of inescapable parameters redundant by using 'chaff' and other active/passive measures, a 'gun kill' is invariably a most certain kill. The pilots invariably begin honing their tracking and combat skills under such close combat situations.

    The exercise that nearly runs into midway by the weekend constitutes mostly mixed missions where RAF F3 Tornados, Hawks and Typhoons are packed together with IAF Su-30 MKIs. The sorties include combat situations of 2 vs 1, 2 vs 2 and upward combinations. The raiders are tasked 'High Value Asset' (HVA) busting on the ground and 'High Value Airborne Asset' (HVAA) busting in the air with the defensive elements designated to counter their ambitions.





    Must have been fairly even as nobody is bragging.
    A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. - George Bernard Shaw

    flag@whitehouse.gov
  • flex297
    Senior Member

    #2
    Originally posted by sferrin View Post
    Must have been fairly even as nobody is bragging.
    Well, if it really was even then it is fairly a disappointment for the Typhoon. For the '2nd most advanced A-A performer in the world' I would expect Flankers being a relatively easy prey.

    Comment

    • sferrin
      Rank 5 Registered User

      #3
      Originally posted by flex297 View Post
      Well, if it really was even then it is fairly a disappointment for the Typhoon. For the '2nd most advanced A-A performer in the world' I would expect Flankers being a relatively easy prey.
      It'll be interesting to hear the results and the scenarios they flew.
      A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. - George Bernard Shaw

      flag@whitehouse.gov

      Comment

      • MadRat
        Rank 5 Registered User

        #4
        Typhoon as the aggressor should of ate up the Flanker.
        Go Huskers!

        Comment

        • Adrian_44
          Rank 5 Registered User

          #5
          RE: RAF Eurofighter Typhoons and IAF Su-30 MKIs Match-Up to Their Potentials In Thei

          Even in the 1V1 exercises smart money says neither aircraft came close to the extents of their envelope. Things like pulling a maximum of "7G", etc during ACM.

          Adrian
          Adrian_44

          Comment

          • 21Ankush
            Senior Member

            #6
            this is'nt just your regular Flanker..its a Bars N011M and 3D TVC equipped fighter that has an equipment fit better than any other Flanker..I can hardly see how a Typhoon would 'eat' an MKI without taking a mauling itself..

            Comment

            • vikasrehman
              Rank 5 Registered User

              #7
              this is'nt just your regular Flanker..its a Bars N011M and 3D TVC equipped fighter that has an equipment fit better than any other Flanker..I can hardly see how a Typhoon would 'eat' an MKI without taking a mauling itself..
              Very true. But Typhoon also has an excellent set of avionics, and probably does enjoy a great advantage over MKI in terms of its smaller RCS (probably closest to F-22 of operationally deployed fighters). Having said this, years ago people talked a great deal about typhoon's ability to win over SU-35 in BAE run simulations (i think ratio was 9:1 or something like that). Now both sides have a better chance of testing each other's capabilities.
              Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true. Demosthenes

              Comment

              • joey
                Rank 5 Registered User

                #8
                Originally posted by vikasrehman View Post
                Very true. But Typhoon also has an excellent set of avionics, and probably does enjoy a great advantage over MKI in terms of its smaller RCS (probably closest to F-22 of operationally deployed fighters). Having said this, years ago people talked a great deal about typhoon's ability to win over SU-35 in BAE run simulations (i think ratio was 9:1 or something like that). Now both sides have a better chance of testing each other's capabilities.
                RCS difference like that does not matters 'too-too' much and it depends on platform versus platform, the difference in RCS and the detection range of both radars w.r.t that difference, MKI has gone through RCS reduction compared to the base fulcrum design. (there was a pic posted here long ago by sumeet on this issue)

                And when external-loadout comes into scenario the difference in RCS if is not too much, having a powerful radar negates that.(RCS versus Range-Detection)

                One can never compare a fighter with external loadout with that of internal loadout RCS.

                However Typhoon is definitely a great and better placed bird with Tranche 3 coming up it'll definitely be a superior bird, however a MLU to MKI with AESA and higher thrust engine will be helpful against Tranche 3 as well.

                Typhoons power is awesome, That Euro Jet engine is impressive!
                Last edited by joey; 10th July 2007, 20:18.

                Comment

                • vikasrehman
                  Rank 5 Registered User

                  #9
                  And when external-loadout comes into scenario the difference in RCS if is not too much, having a powerful radar negates that.(RCS versus Range-Detection)
                  Joey, while i agree with ur statement regarding external loads and their effects on overall RCS, having a powerful radar and its frequent use also denies the platform the opportunity of surprise which is of utmost importance in BVR engagements.
                  Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true. Demosthenes

                  Comment

                  • matt
                    Satyameva jayate

                    #10
                    for WVR wouldnt the Su-30MKI's IRST give it an advantage over the Eurofighter?
                    Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle

                    Comment

                    • J Boyle
                      With malice towards none

                      #11
                      I think that if the RAF does (did) well, we'll read a lot less about it than if the IAF did well...:diablo:
                      There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

                      Comment

                      • joey
                        Rank 5 Registered User

                        #12
                        Originally posted by J Boyle View Post
                        I think that if the RAF does (did) well, we'll read a lot less about it than if the IAF did well...:diablo:
                        You will hear that when normally any exercise happens in India .

                        Comment

                        • matt
                          Satyameva jayate

                          #13
                          These are fighter jocks were talking about!

                          do you think if either side had creamed the other side we would not hear about some time in the future? how many of us have head Red Flag stories of the USAF being defeated by tornados etc etc etc etc blah blah blah bye RAF guys?


                          They are fighter jocks and by nature and competitive so things will be blabed some place.

                          The way BAe has billed the Typhoon as being a cheaper alternative to the F-22 the Su-30 is going in as an underdog and has not a lot to loose
                          Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle

                          Comment

                          • 21Ankush
                            Senior Member

                            #14
                            right said Vikas, considering that the reputation of the Typhoon was given a big shot in the arm based on simulations that gave it an overwhelming advantage over the Su-35, it has more to lose than does the MKI..

                            but only very substantial RCS reductions on the Typhoon can give it a reduction worthwhile for it to have a decisive advantage in BVR..the ranges at which the MKI will detect even a clean Typhoon would be outside any AMRAAM variant range, so there is no first shot advantage here..and then again, if one is to consider the E-3D providing coverage to both, then there is no real advantage to either.

                            as for WVR maneuverability, the MKI is a 3D TVC equipped fighter that will be far more capable in its instantaneous nose pointing ability as compared to the Typhoon..it carries more than adequate internal fuel so losing energy in turning fights is not that big a deal and there are no drop-tank hassles..add to that the HMS+R-73 combo, a dedicated WSO and you have tremendous off-bore sight ability apart from general WVR.

                            so really, I fail to see how the Typhoon would 'eat' an MKI in either BVR or WVR unless its RCS is really as low as the F-22..which it obviously is'nt. looks more like it'll come down to pilot skills and situational awareness.
                            Last edited by 21Ankush; 11th July 2007, 04:43.

                            Comment

                            • Adrian_44
                              Rank 5 Registered User

                              #15
                              RE: RAF Eurofighter Typhoons and IAF Su-30 MKIs Match-Up to Their Potentials In Thei

                              Originally posted by 21Ankush View Post
                              I can hardly see how a Typhoon would 'eat' an MKI without taking a mauling itself.
                              If you are talking about WVR, you see the problems of having a good kill ratio.
                              In a recent test a single F-22 went head to head with three F-16C's. The F-16's simulated having a HMDS with a "high off boresight" (HOB) missile. The F-22 killed two F-16's and the last F-16 fired a missile simultaneously as the F-22 did. A mutual kill. Great kill ratios come if you are able to use BVR.
                              In one of the first test of the F-22's combat ability, four F-16C went against one F-22. The F-16's died and never saw the F-22. Days later, five F-15C's went against one F-22. All five died and they never saw the F-22, either. The F-22 stood off at a distance and killed the opponents.


                              Originally posted by matt View Post
                              for WVR wouldnt the Su-30MKI's IRST give it an advantage over the Eurofighter?
                              I came across the following URL on stealth;
                              http://www.f22totalairwar.de/F-22_To...ection_RCS.htm

                              Originally posted by matt View Post
                              These are fighter jocks were talking about!

                              do you think if either side had creamed the other side we would not hear about some time in the future? how many of us have head Red Flag stories of the USAF being defeated by tornados etc etc etc etc blah blah blah bye RAF guys?
                              I first heard of the Tornado killing a F-15 during a Red Flag type exercise (the one the RAF uses over the North Sea) in AW&ST. I had an old friend "Art", a former F-14A pilot and he told things he had seen concerning the Tornado. He said the Tornado's greatest strength was it had a great set of tacticians to deal with all sorts of aircraft. So, information does get out and not just from the USA.
                              As for the the capabilities of the Su-35, back at the beginning of the ATF(F-22) program, the CIA, DARPA, USAF Air Intelligence worked together to calculate what the technical capabilities of manufacturing the USSR would be in the 1990 to 2010 time period. With that knowledge the specs on the F-22 were set. (This was based upon the Cold War continuing.) It was designed to be better than anything the Soviets could build in this time period. What are the chances the USA did not share some of this information. After the Cold War ended the USA purchased first line equipment and were able to determine how accurate that study back in 1970 was and update it. In fact, it would be the height of irresponsibility to not keep this technical information edge. So, knowing the capabilities of the next MiG's or Su-X could be determined. Then the west set their sights on being better.

                              Originally posted by matt View Post
                              for WVR wouldnt the Su-30MKI's IRST give it an advantage over the Eurofighter?
                              This where the European state of the art avionics comes into play, its IRST 'should' have greater range than the Indian system.
                              One other problem the MKI's have is the lack of EW equipment! -URL:
                              http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/n...hp?newsid=8660


                              Originally posted by J Boyle View Post
                              I think that if the RAF does (did) well, we'll read a lot less about it than if the IAF did well...:diablo:
                              Yeah, I noticed that. The exercise the Indian AF Su-30's exercised with the Israeli F-15C's. It is almost like a non-event! I guess the Israelis did a lot better than the USAF, no rediculous ROEs. Israel is real good in WVR aerial combat.
                              On websites which favor Russian aircraft, no sign of gloating (as what happen after Cope India), and you know the results of any of these exercises are known by air intelligence.

                              Adrian
                              Adrian_44

                              Comment

                              • flex297
                                Senior Member

                                #16
                                Originally posted by 21Ankush View Post
                                this is'nt just your regular Flanker..its a Bars N011M and 3D TVC equipped fighter that has an equipment fit better than any other Flanker..I can hardly see how a Typhoon would 'eat' an MKI without taking a mauling itself..
                                The sensor suite could be at least roughly comparable. The difference is that the RCS of Su-30MKI is 7-8 times larger than th eone of EF.. BVR is where Typhoon should still enjoy a great advantage..

                                Comment

                                • Himanshu
                                  Rank 5 Registered User

                                  #17
                                  Better to get surprises during peacetime encounters then in actual wars...

                                  All these exposures would help IAF in the planning of the upgrade path of the MKI.. and would also help in the in-house R&D efforts and their directions by orgs like DRDO/ADA/HAL etc..

                                  Comment

                                  • uss novice
                                    Rank 5 Registered User

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by vikasrehman View Post
                                    Very true. But Typhoon also has an excellent set of avionics, and probably does enjoy a great advantage over MKI in terms of its smaller RCS (probably closest to F-22 of operationally deployed fighters). Having said this, years ago people talked a great deal about typhoon's ability to win over SU-35 in BAE run simulations (i think ratio was 9:1 or something like that). Now both sides have a better chance of testing each other's capabilities.
                                    Those ridiculous values for the Ef2000's RCS come from 1998 (where they put their fut in the mouth by making tall claims such as 1/3rd of Rafale, 1/7th of Su 27, "next after the F22" ) If you notice, they are quite bizarre. If the Ef2000 as per this claim is 1/3rd of the Rafale (which is supposedly 1/10th of the Mirage 2000 and therefore has an RCS of 0.3sqm), then its RCS comes in at 0.1msq, however, they point out that the flanker is 7X greater than this - so the flanker is a mere 0.7msq Unbelievable - even the Russkies don't claim that after plasma stealth type treatment. The best they claim for the flanker is about 3sqm after extensive RAM treatment.

                                    As recently as 2006, Mr. David Hamilton, the Marketing Director of the EF2000 program made a statement that the EF2000 has an RCS that is 1/10th of the F15, which would put it at around 1sqm in a clean config. Other claims said the design goal was to have an RCS 1/4th of the Tornado (8sqm), thus firmly putting the EF2000 in the 1msq-2msq bracket. This is much more believable.
                                    I'd say the JSF has the lowest RCS after the F22 period, followed by the Rafale with the Ef2000 coming in a poor 4th.

                                    http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/05/01/464965.html
                                    Mr. Hamilton:
                                    STEALTH is a complex subject and is not like the mvthical ring of invisibility in the Lord of the Rings. STEALTH is a combination of measures taken to reduce radar, visual, IR and noise signatures. There are therefore different levels of STEALTH. Eurofighter has stealth features to reduce its signature (it is 10% of the F-15 radar signature for example) but it is NOT in the same league as JSF which is classified as LO (Low Observable). F-22 and the B-2 are VLO (Very Low Observable) but cost $ hundreds of millions.However, when it comes to radar-stealth, yes, JSF is in a later generation, if you would use such terms. But as to visual stealth, IR stealth, acoustic stealth and network-centric capability, we are in the same generation.

                                    Because we know we are not LO and therefore will be detected earlier than JSF we carry the most advanced Defensive Aid Subsystem (DASS)which includes active and passive countermeasures to jam enemy detection systems. Through the use of the data link we can also go "passive" and get targetting information from a third party (AWACS for example). This is part of our Network Centric capability which all combat air systems must have to operate in the 21st Century. Eurofighter was designed from the outset to be network centric. The British Air Force for example would not buy half of it's future combat force which was not network centric or not interoperable with the US and our other NATO allies!.
                                    David Hamilton
                                    Remember, the networking ability that he talks about is no different for any other similar a/c (read Shornet, Rafale, Su 30MKI, Gripen, MiG35), similar when it comes to active/passive countermeasures. IOW, the EF2000's claims to stealth are a bunch of hype.

                                    As far as going toe to toe vs the MKI, its going to have its hands full and will likely come out second best, today or in the foreseeable future. Furthermore, even if there is the unlikely "considerable" difference in RCS vs the MKI, it'll be brought down considerably with EFTs and external payloads that the Typhoon has to carry. JMT

                                    Regards,
                                    USS.
                                    Last edited by uss novice; 11th July 2007, 15:29.

                                    Comment

                                    • uss novice
                                      Rank 5 Registered User

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Adrian_44 View Post
                                      If you are talking about WVR, you see the problems of having a good kill ratio.In a recent test a single F-22 went head to head with three F-16C's. The F-16's simulated having a HMDS with a "high off boresight" (HOB) missile. The F-22 killed two F-16's and the last F-16 fired a missile simultaneously as the F-22 did. A mutual kill. Great kill ratios come if you are able to use BVR.In one of the first test of the F-22's combat ability, four F-16C went against one F-22. The F-16's died and never saw the F-22. Days later, five F-15C's went against one F-22. All five died and they never saw the F-22, either. The F-22 stood off at a distance and killed the opponents.I came across the following URL on stealth;
                                      http://www.f22totalairwar.de/F-22_To...ection_RCS.htm
                                      Thats great for the F22, but the Typhoon is nowhere close to the Raptor and would probly have fared just like the F16s in BVR against it.

                                      In fact, it would be the height of irresponsibility to not keep this technical information edge. So, knowing the capabilities of the next MiG's or Su-X could be determined. Then the west set their sights on being better.
                                      Lets not forget that it would be the height of irresponsibility on part of the Russians to allow the U.S to get any sort of technological edge that couldn't be countered. I seriously doubt the "west", least of all the europeans got any secrets/edge outa/over the Russians.

                                      This where the European state of the art avionics comes into play, its IRST 'should' have greater range than the Indian system.
                                      Right and Israeli/Indian (french, european too ain't they) avionics on the MKI should automatically be behind "state of the art" european ones.

                                      One other problem the MKI's have is the lack of EW equipment! -URL:
                                      http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/n...hp?newsid=8660
                                      No kidding, so they carry the EL 8222, Tarang etc just for fun is it? Egads thats a piece of news! Adrian, man you should not believe Indian media that easily, they'll mislead you so you won't know your head from your feet.

                                      Yeah, I noticed that. The exercise the Indian AF Su-30's exercised with the Israeli F-15C's. It is almost like a non-event! I guess the Israelis did a lot better than the USAF, no rediculous ROEs. Israel is real good in WVR aerial combat.
                                      It couldn't have possibly been that the Israelis and indians prefer to do things a little secretively could it? I mean not a thing on India/ISrael exercises in 2006. OTOH, it has to of course be those loud mouthed Indians who love to pat each others' butt.

                                      On websites which favor Russian aircraft, no sign of gloating (as what happen after Cope India), and you know the results of any of these exercises are known by air intelligence.
                                      BTW, the gloating in the indian newsmedia was often a response to the cribbing in US media.

                                      Regards,
                                      USS
                                      Last edited by uss novice; 11th July 2007, 15:50.

                                      Comment

                                      • uss novice
                                        Rank 5 Registered User

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by flex297 View Post
                                        The difference is that the RCS of Su-30MKI is 7-8 times larger than th eone of EF.. BVR is where Typhoon should still enjoy a great advantage..
                                        The RCS difference might be relative to a baseline SU 27. I seriously doubt the Typhoon has 1/7th RCS of the Su 30MKI esp. considering it'd have to carry 2000 liter drop tanks externally, while the MKI doesn't require EFTs. I'd guess the difference in RCS would be marginal at best, nothing that would not be negated by the massive power of the Bar NO11M.

                                        Regards,
                                        USS.

                                        Comment

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