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F/A-18 E/F FOR GREECE?

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  • HJP
    HJP
    Rank 5 Registered User

    F/A-18 E/F FOR GREECE?

    According to Press sources, Boeing representatives are going to give detailed briefings for the F/A-18 E/F batch II aircraft capabilities etc. to the Hellenic Air Force, as HAF's superior officers plan its new military procurement programme that may well exceed the number of 40 aircrafts. For those familiar with HAF history, F/A-18L was offered to Greece back in the eighties, yet the Greek governemt of that era, has opted for LM's F16 (block 30) and Dassault's Mirage 2000 EGM/BGM (even though, F/A-18L was the airforce's choice...) Taking into account, the fact that EADS with EF TYPHOON and Dassault with RAFALE F3 (perhaps F4 edition) are preparing for the official announcement of the HAF's new procurement programme, please share your views with the pros & the cons of a possible choice of F/A-18 E/F.

    Note: Pics were taken from the internet.[B[/B]
    Attached Files
    Last edited by HJP; 24th February 2007, 01:55.
  • djcross
    Rank 5 Registered User

    #2
    The Turks will be safe enough as the E/F still doesn't have enough range to fly across the Agean and back again.

    Comment

    • HJP
      HJP
      Rank 5 Registered User

      #3
      [FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]How about playing mostly the role of an interceptor? To the best of my knowledge, HAF's superior officers are looking for an aircraft in order to support the fleet of the 22 Mirage 2000 (the 25 MK2's have not yet been received) that in most occasions is the one who intercepts the Turkish F16 over the Aegean. As far as strike capabilities are in concern, I think that HAF appears well beyond pleased with the capabilities of the latest editions of the F16 it has. If you ask me, I would opt for either EF TYPHOON or RAFALE (if F3 with AESA would be available) for the role of air superiority or interception. Yet, the price tag of aprx. 57$ mil/unit and the advanced technologies that F/A-18 E/F incorporates (similar to the ones of the European aircrafts mentioned) might well attract a contract. [/FONT]

      Comment

      • HJP
        HJP
        Rank 5 Registered User

        #4
        By the way, I think that the small (not detailed) comparison between the existeed F16 Block52+ of HAF and that of a potential F/A-18 E/F aircraft purchase that comes below, prooves that the range gap between those two fighter jets is not that much great in favour of the F16... Actually, people who prefer the F18 as a choice, have confronted me in the past days with the argument that the US NAVY would not have opted once more for the E/F, if its range wasn't already satisfactory enough. Taking for granted the high standards of US militants and the fact that 460 units of these aircrafts are scheduled for delivery prior the year 2012, I must say I am a bit sceptic.


        Specifications (standard Block 50/52)

        Engine: One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 turbofan, rated at 17,000 lb.s.t. dry and 28,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning or one General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan, rated at 17,155 lb.s.t. dry and 28,984 lb.s.t. with afterburning.

        Performance: Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.05 (1353 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet. Tactical radius (hi-lo-hi interdiction on internal fuel with six 500-lb bombs) 360 miles. Maximum ferry range 2450 miles with maximum external fuel (excluding 600gal. tanks or CFT's) .

        Dimensions: wingspan 31 feet 0 inches, length 49 feet 4 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.

        Weights: 18,238 pounds empty, 26,463 pounds normal loaded (air-to-air mission), 42,300 pounds maximum takeoff.


        (Specifications Standard F/A-18 E/F)
        Type
        F/A-18E (single seat)
        F/A-18F (two seat multirole, tactical carrier, strike fighter aircraft

        Power Plant
        Two General Electric F414-GE-400 derivative turbofan engines rated in the 44,000-pounds of thrust

        Top Speed
        Mach 1.8+

        Crew
        F/A-18E: One
        F/A-18F: Two

        Range
        F/A-18E: 1,930 nautical miles
        F/A-18F: 1,866 nautical miles

        Combat Ceiling
        50,000+ feet

        Takeoff Gross Weight
        66,000 pounds

        Armament
        One 20mm MK-61A1 Vulcan cannon, AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-7 Sparrow, AIM-120 AMRAAM, Harpoon, HARM, Strike, SLAM, SLAM-ER, Walleye, Maverick missiles, Joint Stand-Off Weapon (JSOW), Joint Direct Attack/Munition (JDAM), and various general purpose bombs, mines, and rockets




        Note: Pics from the internet of F16Block 52+ with CFT and F/A-18F breaking the sound barrier
        Attached Files
        Last edited by HJP; 24th February 2007, 03:10.

        Comment

        • broncho
          Senior Member

          #5
          Wouldn't it make sense to go for something newer like Ef-2000 or Rafale.

          Comment

          • HJP
            HJP
            Rank 5 Registered User

            #6

            If this is a choice unrelated to politics and if the Greek Economy has more resources for expenditure, I think one of the European contestants would be the way to go. Nevertheless, many things depend upon the role which these new jets will have to fullfill (i.e. air superiority? etc.). If you ask me, both the two European jets aren't yet ready for multirole operations. On the other hand, F/A-18 E/F is a tested and mature platform with many of the technologies of tomorrow incorporated. I must note here, that Boeing officials keep referring to it as Fifth generation aircraft! Perhaps this is a marketing tric. Perhaps it is just a truthful fact. Nonetheless,till now, USN appears pleased with this aircraft.

            Comment

            • djcross
              Rank 5 Registered User

              #7
              Originally posted by HJP View Post
              I must note here, that Boeing officials keep referring to it as Fifth generation aircraft! Perhaps this is a marketing tric. Perhaps it is just a truthful fact. Nonetheless,till now, USN appears pleased with this aircraft.
              Boeing doesn't have any product to compare with Lockheed or Northrop, but claiming 5th generation is wishful thinking on the part of Boeing marketeers.

              If it was not for E/F, the sailors standing on deck would be traumatized watching F-22s flying overhead to protect their fleet.

              Comment

              • eagle
                Rank 5 Registered User

                #8
                If Greece is looking mainly for an interceptor, this more or less rules out one jet.
                The EF would be the way to go then.
                If they want multirole, why not just buy more F-16s. Or Rafale it they want more than 40 and retire some older jets.
                How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
                Yngwie Malmsteen

                Comment

                • Shadow1
                  Rank 5 Registered User

                  #9
                  What ever happened to the Eurofighter deal that was suspended prior to the summer Olympics of 2004? Is it still being considered or will has it been officially cancelled?
                  In the end, I don't think the Super Hornet would fit the Greek Air Force as it stands today. I think they have a better chance with the Eurofighter, maybe a smaller deal than what had originally been contracted for. But two other jets that should be considered are the Gripen and the Rafale.

                  Comment

                  • Scorpion82
                    Rank 5 Registered User

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Shadow1 View Post
                    What ever happened to the Eurofighter deal that was suspended prior to the summer Olympics of 2004? Is it still being considered or will has it been officially cancelled?
                    In the end, I don't think the Super Hornet would fit the Greek Air Force as it stands today. I think they have a better chance with the Eurofighter, maybe a smaller deal than what had originally been contracted for. But two other jets that should be considered are the Gripen and the Rafale.
                    Greece selected the Eurofighter Typhoon in 1999 as the winner of its fighter competition. The plan was to order 60 aircraft plus 30 options in 2001 with deliveries beginning in 2005. When the deal was ready and only the contract signature standing out the greek government refused to sign and delayed the procurement after the times of the Olympic games in 2004 due to financial reasons. Meanwhile a new government is in duty and this has decided to reopen the contest. 30 F-16 were purchased as a stop gap and greece reduced the numbers for a new generation type to 30 aircraft plus 10 options. AFAIK a final decision has now been postponed to 2009 again because of financial reasons. The greek are now open for all bids be it F/A-18E/F blk.2, Rafale or Eurofighter. We will have to wait.

                    Comment

                    • antoine
                      Junior Member

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Scorpion82 View Post
                      Greece selected the Eurofighter Typhoon in 1999 as the winner of its fighter competition. The plan was to order 60 aircraft plus 30 options in 2001 with deliveries beginning in 2005. When the deal was ready and only the contract signature standing out the greek government refused to sign and delayed the procurement after the times of the Olympic games in 2004 due to financial reasons. Meanwhile a new government is in duty and this has decided to reopen the contest. 30 F-16 were purchased as a stop gap and greece reduced the numbers for a new generation type to 30 aircraft plus 10 options. AFAIK a final decision has now been postponed to 2009 again because of financial reasons. The greek are now open for all bids be it F/A-18E/F blk.2, Rafale or Eurofighter. We will have to wait.
                      AFAIK, there was no competition in 1999. The EF has been choosen without open competition with other fighters. Did i miss something ?
                      I read too that LM proposes the JSF for the new competition.

                      Comment

                      • ELP
                        ELP
                        Rank 5 Registered User

                        #12
                        Well... the HAF is all about having different kinds of aircraft.

                        It would be a good strike aircraft. Block II AESA is pretty amazing. And an insane amount of A2G weapons.

                        Being briefed on a weapon systems ability might also be something just to say they did it in case anyone asks. With Turkey lining up for JSF, one might consider HAF will go that way too. The F-18E/F airframe is completely uninspiring. It's only good thing is that it is easy to maintain and can land on an aircraft carrier. If the decison maker likes brute performance airframes, they are in for a shocking disappointment. Hang stores on the Super Hornet and there is no world beating air frame performance by a long shot. The spec sheet is ok, but the spec sheet has nothing to do with how the aircraft would perform configured for war.

                        Comment

                        • ELP
                          ELP
                          Rank 5 Registered User

                          #13
                          Originally posted by HJP View Post

                          Armament
                          One 20mm MK-61A1 Vulcan cannon, AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-7 Sparrow, AIM-120 AMRAAM, Harpoon, HARM, Strike, SLAM, SLAM-ER, Walleye, Maverick missiles, Joint Stand-Off Weapon (JSOW), Joint Direct Attack/Munition (JDAM), and various general purpose bombs, mines, and rockets
                          Sparrow isn't even being made anymore and isn't considered a serious A2A weapon. "Strike" I assume that means "Shrike"? Same. No longer made or a relevant weapon., Walleye is long gone too.

                          Combat range. Varies but just a little more than a C Hornet. While it carries close to 4,000lb more gas, it is also taking along more drag and weight and like the legacy Hornet, two mouths to feed.
                          Last edited by ELP; 24th February 2007, 22:54.

                          Comment

                          • HJP
                            HJP
                            Rank 5 Registered User

                            #14
                            Back in the 1999, the PASOK Government and Prime Minister Kostas Simitis, CONDUCTED in association with HAF an open international contest for the Hellenic Air Force's new jet fighter procurement programme. Participants, were the LM's F16 block50/52+, Dassault's Mirage 2000-5mk2, Boeing's F15H (where H stands for HELLAS) STRIKE EAGLE and Russia's Sukhois (don't recall the version)... HAF superior officers have opted for the F15 but the money available allowed the purchase of only 36 units. Acting wisely (if you ask me), the Greek Governement decided to purchase 50 F16block 52+ (plus an option of 10) & 15 Mirage 2000-5mk2 (plus an option of 3). EF TYPHOON, was about that time just a developing programme with an imminent degree of uncertainty (not to mention the extravagant cost that it would incure). Furthermore, the immediate needs for new aircrafts, pushed the Greek Government for the F16 and Mirage's, jets for which there was already some short of infrastracture, while their delivery times were short termed. In order, to give the "right" impressions to its European allies, the Simitis Government made the notorious announcement of the decision to purchase within the years to follow the EF TYPHOON... My guess, as the guess of any reasonable Greek, is that he just intended to gain some major political benefits... Who doesn't, anyway... To make the long story short, THERE WAS AN INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION and EF made its first attempt to become a part of HAF while still under development...

                            Comment

                            • HJP
                              HJP
                              Rank 5 Registered User

                              #15
                              Sparrow isn't even being made anymore and isn't considered a serious A2A weapon. "Strike" I assume that means "Shrike"? Same. No longer made or a relevant weapon., Walleye is long gone too.

                              Combat range. Varieys but just a little more than a C Hornet. While it carries close to 4,000lb more gas, it is also taking along more drag and weight and like the legacy Hornet, two mouths to feed.
                              ____________
                              I agree with all this info ELP. I have just written down (copy paste style...) some info from the official sites of Northrop Grumman and Boeing. It is really wishful for those Marketeers who want to suggest that F/A-18 E/F is a Fifth generation aircraft. That is exactly why I haven't ommit those weapons from their armament list!!! I was pretty sure, that this could not pass unnoticed... Nevertheless, as an aircraft F18 remains advanced, but I guess I have to suggest that a choice of a Rafale or EF would be wiser at the time being.
                              Last edited by HJP; 25th February 2007, 01:29.

                              Comment

                              • HJP
                                HJP
                                Rank 5 Registered User

                                #16
                                WHAT IS YOUR OPINION IN THE CASE WE PUT AN F/A-18 E AGAINST AN F-16 C BLOCK 50+ (LIKE THE ONES THK IS ABOUT TO RECEIVE AROUND 2011-12) BOTH IN A SITUATION WHEN WE HAVE A "DOGFIGHT", AS WELL AS, UNDER THE OCCASSION OF BVR COMBAT?
                                Last edited by HJP; 25th February 2007, 01:27.

                                Comment

                                • ELP
                                  ELP
                                  Rank 5 Registered User

                                  #17
                                  No offense, but your posts look like a box of crayons puked. I don't need bold color to read what you are writing.

                                  Comment

                                  • HJP
                                    HJP
                                    Rank 5 Registered User

                                    #18
                                    That's ok. The tip sounds reasonable enough. Just spare few moments and share your views if you feel in the mood. Best regards.

                                    Comment

                                    • Scooter
                                      Rank 5 Registered User

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by HJP View Post
                                      By the way, I think that the small (not detailed) comparison between the existeed F16 Block52+ of HAF and that of a potential F/A-18 E/F aircraft purchase that comes below, prooves that the range gap between those two fighter jets is not that much great in favour of the F16... Actually, people who prefer the F18 as a choice, have confronted me in the past days with the argument that the US NAVY would not have opted once more for the E/F, if its range wasn't already satisfactory enough. Taking for granted the high standards of US militants and the fact that 460 units of these aircrafts are scheduled for delivery prior the year 2012, I must say I am a bit sceptic.


                                      Specifications (standard Block 50/52)

                                      Engine: One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 turbofan, rated at 17,000 lb.s.t. dry and 28,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning or one General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan, rated at 17,155 lb.s.t. dry and 28,984 lb.s.t. with afterburning.

                                      Performance: Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.05 (1353 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet. Tactical radius (hi-lo-hi interdiction on internal fuel with six 500-lb bombs) 360 miles. Maximum ferry range 2450 miles with maximum external fuel (excluding 600gal. tanks or CFT's) .

                                      Dimensions: wingspan 31 feet 0 inches, length 49 feet 4 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.

                                      Weights: 18,238 pounds empty, 26,463 pounds normal loaded (air-to-air mission), 42,300 pounds maximum takeoff.


                                      (Specifications Standard F/A-18 E/F)
                                      Type
                                      F/A-18E (single seat)
                                      F/A-18F (two seat multirole, tactical carrier, strike fighter aircraft

                                      Power Plant
                                      Two General Electric F414-GE-400 derivative turbofan engines rated in the 44,000-pounds of thrust

                                      Top Speed
                                      Mach 1.8+

                                      Crew
                                      F/A-18E: One
                                      F/A-18F: Two

                                      Range
                                      F/A-18E: 1,930 nautical miles
                                      F/A-18F: 1,866 nautical miles

                                      Combat Ceiling
                                      50,000+ feet

                                      Takeoff Gross Weight
                                      66,000 pounds

                                      Armament
                                      One 20mm MK-61A1 Vulcan cannon, AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-7 Sparrow, AIM-120 AMRAAM, Harpoon, HARM, Strike, SLAM, SLAM-ER, Walleye, Maverick missiles, Joint Stand-Off Weapon (JSOW), Joint Direct Attack/Munition (JDAM), and various general purpose bombs, mines, and rockets




                                      Note: Pics from the internet of F16Block 52+ with CFT and F/A-18F breaking the sound barrier

                                      Note: Any Super Hornet purchased by Greece would more than likely be equipped with the much more powerful F-414-GE-402 (EPE) turbofans. Making on the order of 26,400 lbs each vs the current 22,000 lbs of the standard F/A-18E/F. :diablo:
                                      F-35 Lightning II

                                      Comment

                                      • eagle
                                        Rank 5 Registered User

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Scooter View Post
                                        Note: Any Super Hornet purchased by Greece would more than likely be equipped with the much more powerful F-414-GE-402 (EPE) turbofans. Making on the order of 26,400 lbs each vs the current 22,000 lbs of the standard F/A-18E/F. :diablo:
                                        Time for a well known quote, although its from F-111B times: "All the thrust in Christendom will not make a fighter out of this aircraft."
                                        How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
                                        Yngwie Malmsteen

                                        Comment

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