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By: - 27th December 2006 at 08:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The two of you seem to list several Sabre & Sabre derived aircraft:
1) F-86E
2) Canadair Sabre MK5
3) FJ-4 Fury
but what about the Commonwealth CA-27 Sabre?
The version of the Sabre with the most powerful engine (Rolls-Royce Avon RA.7 rated at 7,500 pounds of thrust), served for the last of the 1950s & first half of the 1960s.
The engine was so powerful that on the first prototype's first flight, August 3, 1953, it exceeded the speed of sound! Oh, right, you said "subsonic fighter".... :D
I have always been partial to the Grumman F9F-6/7/8 series... the swept-wing Cougar.
I know it was not quite as good as the Fury-4, but it was always well-liked by the USN pilots, as the F9F-6 actually had better carrier handling characteristics than the straight-winged F9F-5 Panther.
The Cougar was extremely popular with its crews, who admired it for its ease of piloting, its superb carrier handling capabilities, and its robust construction.
Admittedly, it was a "designed for Korea" fighter that entered service in late 1952 (and left in 1959, except the trainers and reserve units), but it always was (and still is) one of my favorites.
Now if they had built the proposed F9F-8N night fighter (the two-seat F9F-8T trainer with the AN/APS-50 radar installed), then I would have a contender.
This brings us to the McDonnell F3H-2 Demon series. This was an excellent subsonic all-weather general-purpose fighter, with an AN/APG-51 airborne intercept radar set. It had 4-20mm cannon (often 2 were removed), and carried Sidewinder AAMs. The F3H-2M was the first aircraft to carry the Sparrow AAM!
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f3hdemon.html
What about the Venom/Sea Venom? They seem to have been well-regarded by the RAF/RN, even in comparison to the Hunter?
Or the SAAB J29 Tunnan?
By: - 27th December 2006 at 13:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have always been partial to the Grumman F9F-6/7/8 series... the swept-wing Cougar.I know it was not quite as good as the Fury-4, but it was always well-liked by the USN pilots, as the F9F-6 actually had better carrier handling characteristics than the straight-winged F9F-5 Panther.
The Cougar was extremely popular with its crews, who admired it for its ease of piloting, its superb carrier handling capabilities, and its robust construction.
Admittedly, it was a "designed for Korea" fighter that entered service in late 1952 (and left in 1959, except the trainers and reserve units), but it always was (and still is) one of my favorites.
Now if they had built the proposed F9F-8N night fighter (the two-seat F9F-8T trainer with the AN/APS-50 radar installed), then I would have a contender.
I thought I had read in one of my older books that the Cougar trainers has seen some service in Vietnam? CAS/COIN work, I thought, but I have never seen any other reference to it.
And didn't the Douglas F3D/F-10 Skynight see service in both Korea and Vietnam? :diablo:
By: - 27th December 2006 at 13:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree with badger about the Avon Sabre.
I wouldn't mind a joyfight in the MIG-17 or Hawker Hunter either.
By: - 27th December 2006 at 13:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting question.
The MiG-17 comes to my attention. It is equipped with an afterburner and showed good handling characteristics. It has a powerful gun armament and it proved in Vietnam that it still is a formidable opponent that can win engagements (however, its kill ratio was always deeply negative).
The Sabre was also developped for long periods and the later versions were serious contenders of the MiG. Even the later versions still had no afterburner.
The Hunter was even more powerful. And it was equipped with 4x 30mm guns, which made a quite powerful armament.
My vote goes for the late MiG-17PF, although I think that each type of the list is superior to another at one single stage in development. These aircraft were pretty basic. Its maximum speed was largely determined by its wing (begin of transonic drag rise). That is the reason no aircraft would go beyond Mach 1 in level flight. All were kind of tricky at transonic speeds, with a lot of lessons learned of transonic regime not yet incorporated to full extend. The sinple swept wing design was simple but led to some tricky handling characteristics.
Most important was in my eyes the engine, and that changed in matter of month or years.
By: - 27th December 2006 at 13:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The story of the MiG-17 against the American supersonic fighters is interesting, because the MiG-17 was largely inferior in performance. Only if the speed goes below M0.6-0.7, it can outmanouver a Phantom. In a defensive role however it is still a serious contender, especially if it comes in surprisingly at bomber aircraft (F-105 for example).
By: - 27th December 2006 at 14:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mine would be:
1) Mig 17
2) F-86 Sabre
3)Dassault Mystère
4)Hawker Hunter
Based mostly on how much combat they saw, and how well they did in combat.
By: - 27th December 2006 at 17:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This brings us to the McDonnell F3H-2 Demon series. This was an excellent subsonic all-weather general-purpose fighter, with an AN/APG-51 airborne intercept radar set. It had 4-20mm cannon (often 2 were removed), and carried Sidewinder AAMs. The F3H-2M was the first aircraft to carry the Sparrow AAM!
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f3hdemon.html
I wouldn't rate the Demon a good aircraft. It was initially flawed, especially due to its engine. It had difficult handling, was not appreciated y its pilots and when it finally came into service with reliable engine, it was effectively outdated. It bridged the years until the Phantom became operational.
The Demon was inferior to most fighters due to poor agility and handling and still did not have any useful speed advantage. It climbed reasonably, but the missile and radar suite was unlikely to deliver an advantage in anything than night or adverse weather fighting (when the other fighters were not aloft anyways).
The Demon is a classical example of a fighter that did not incorporate the Transonic experience fully. To have a good transonic fighter (Gentlemen, the Spitfire was subsonic, the aircraft we talk about are transonic) you need to look at the BAe Hawk or the Harrier, and possibly a number of other aircraft, too.
By: - 27th December 2006 at 17:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hawker Hunter!
The F-86 and MiG-17 were produced in far greater numbers, but both types were terribly flawed in handling characteristics. The MiG-17 was especially dangerous in high speed maneuvers.
The definitive version of the Hawker Hunter had some of the best, most docile handling characteristics of any early swept wing fighter. A Hunter trainer could be used to teach spin recovery technique to test pilots - and in many ways the Hunter still remains a superior trainer to the latter Hawk.
Of course, the Hunter had many early problems and never had a decent fuel fraction. Few would deny that the Hunter was superior to any F-86 derivative, but many would argue that degree of superiority was too slight to justify the development costs of what amounted to an interim, sub/transonic fighter.
By: - 27th December 2006 at 17:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
been partial to the Grumman F9F-6/7/8 series... the swept-wing Cougar.I know it was not quite as good as the Fury-4, but it was always well-liked by the USN pilots, as the F9F-6 actually had better carrier handling characteristics than the straight-winged F9F-5 Panther.
The Cougar was extremely popular with its crews, who admired it for its ease of piloting, its superb carrier handling capabilities, and its robust construction.
Admittedly, it was a "designed for Korea" fighter that entered service in late 1952 (and left in 1959, except the trainers and reserve units), but it always was (and still is) one of my favorites.
Now if they had built the proposed F9F-8N night fighter (the two-seat F9F-8T trainer with the AN/APS-50 radar installed), then I would have a contender.
The success of the Cougar shows that Britain's switch to axial flow engine development was technologically premature. Few would deny that the Rolls Royce Avon was eventually a success, but the licence produced Rolls-Royce Tay variant that powered both the Panther and Cougar was more than adequate for the era - and less problematic.
Of course, it would interesting to compare the Cougar and Hunter as advanced trainers. It would be even more interesting to ponder which type would have won in a hypothetical dogfight?
By: - 27th December 2006 at 19:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What about the swept-wing F-84 variants, the F-84F & RF-84F?
The F-84F was one of the first nuclear-equipped fighter aircraft, brining a whole new dimension of aerial warfare to reality.......the fact that now a single fighter aircraft had the capability to annihilate an entire city (or at least part of a city depending on the yield of the weapon).
The F-84F was very fast, one of the fastest of those mentioned in this thread, it was stable, and it had tremendous range and hauling capability.
The F-84F could carry a wide variety of muntions for the air-to-ground role, and perhaps the only thing bad one could say about its armament is that it retained the six Browning guns of the earlier F-80 & P-51 (as well as the F-86 in early and mid models).
The F-84F wasn't as agile as some of the others mentioned on this list, and it could be tricky to fly, but I think its hauling capability, nuclear capability, massive range, stability, and high speed, at least should warrant it getting a mention in this debate.
P.S. The Saab J-29 Tunnan and J-32 Lansen should also be mentioned though I'm not sure if the Lansen was transonic or barely supersonic.
By: - 27th December 2006 at 21:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I always regarded the re-designation of developed versions of the MiG-15 with a new wing design as the MiG-17 to be a bit misleading – they are still basically the same airframe design, aren’t they? There seems to be less difference between the MiG-15 and MiG-17 than there is between the different variants of the F-86, and I count 5 different engine fits on the Sabre – J47, J65, J73, Canadian Orenda, British RR Avon, plus at least 3 different types of main gun armament, 12.62 mm, 20mm, British 30mm Aden.
The MiG-15/17 were all equipped with the same VK-I powerplant and were armed with the same two 23mm cannons along with that crazy ‘B-29 buster’ 37mm cannon in between them.
The MiG-15/17 design has to be considered the most important jet fighter ever built, if one considers numbers built, number of countries it served with, number of wars took part, number of aircraft it shot down (although maybe the MiG is not as adaptable as the F-86).
By: - 27th December 2006 at 23:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
TF-9Fs and EF-10Bs both served with the Marines during the Vietnam War, the cougar in the FastFAC role with headquarters & maintenance squadrons (being replaced in that role by two-seat Skyhawks), and the Skyknight as an ECM aircraft with VMCJ mixed-mission squadrons, getting replaced by the EA-6A.
My list would look as follows:
-1- Hunter.
Incredible long service life, probably the only one with more aircraft having served than that there were actually built. For a very long time, second- and third-hand Hunters remained quite popular, mostly in the attack role but nevertheless. And still in service (after a gap of some five to ten years, after India's retirement) with the Brits. Also an impressive combat record in all sorts of environments, and as is widely acclaimed, a true delight to fly.
-2- MiG-17 together with the -15, but the latter to a lesser extent. Corrected the shortcomings of the MiG-15 (which also has a different fuselage, especially if you look at the MiG-17F and beyond). Also massive operational experience in vastly different conditions, a large number of users (admittedly as Soviet 'aid'), and in service into the 21st century.
-3- F-86 Sabre family. I don't want to differentiate too much, although i'll be the first to admit that an F-86A, Sabre Mk5, CA27, FJ-4 and F-86H were all very different kinds of animals.
While with little doubt the US most succesful jet fighter ever, i think part of it's success is due to the fact that it's got massive MAP/MDAP support, effectively accounting for all non-NA-variants as well. I think the design was over-extended a bit (Sabre Hog anybody?), even though this could only happen because of the brilliance of the initial design.
Also it was retired long before the two types above.
-4- Saab 32 Lansen.
Whoa cool machine, lasted in an ECM trainer role until the very late 1990s.
-5- Dassault Mystère
Paid by US taxes, an interesting machine keeping Dassault in the aviation military business. Could have been a bigger success if the market wasn't flooded with free Sabres and MiG-15s/17s. Served well in Israel, never got developed into anything thanks to US-built AdlA MAP/MDAP stuff (F-86K, F-84G, even F-100).
-6- Gnat
Would have liked to see them in dispersed ZELL 'manned-SAM' saturation defence operations. Microscopic combat jets were still possible in that day, but since i'd have to be flying a Gnat T1 sitting on the rear seat, with the middle display and front seat removed... nah. Admittedly did interesting service in India.
-7- F-84F
Not a fighter, a pure attacker. It did have a long range, but about half of that was used up by the runway. Overstretched development of the plank-wing F-84, would have been a nice interim between the F-84 and F-105 if it wasn't for MAP/MDAP.
By: - 28th December 2006 at 04:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Having re-checked the specs on the J32 Lansen, I would have to agree that it belongs here... level flight max speed was subsonic, even if it was capable of mach 1.2 in a dive (that being the "max permissible speed")!
Posts: 151
By: AbitNutz - 27th December 2006 at 03:38
Everyone seems to be debating the merits of the latest fighters but what about the subsonic
The obvious contenders would be:
1) F-86E
2) Canadair Sabre MK5
3) Mig 17
4) Folland Gnat
5) Hawker Hunter
6) Dassault Mystere
Any others?
Which would you want to pilot and why?