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  • PhantomII
    Phantoms Phorever
    • Jan 2000
    • 8292

    #81
    So the Kfir C.1 had the seven hardpoints like the Nesher & Mirage 5 (i.e. two new rear hardpoints) while the C.2 & C.7 had the full nine hardpoints?

    I assume then that the Cheetah is the only variant with two new forward hardpoints but no rear hardpoints? (of the variants that have more than five hardpoints that is).
    Fox-4!

    Comment

    • Peter G
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2000
      • 889

      #82
      Cheetah C has 9 hardpoints - they are Kfir C.2 airframes after all

      Comment

      • PhantomII
        Phantoms Phorever
        • Jan 2000
        • 8292

        #83
        Are you positive about that? I'd always heard they were Mirage conversions.

        Afterall, they have the Atar engine (ableit the uprated Atar 50 as opposed to Atar in the original Mirage III).

        The canards are also different from those of the Kfir.
        Fox-4!

        Comment

        • flex297
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2003
          • 10590

          #84
          I think PII is right here..

          Comment

          • wilhelm
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Dec 2004
            • 1658

            #85
            There is a lot of speculation as to where the airframes for the Cheetah came from. If you remember, the first Cheetah to be unveiled was a 2 seater, followed by the single seater Cheetah E. The E was powered by the Atar 09C and had a ranging radar only. Atlas stated that all airframes were zero houred which entailed a rebuild of 50% of the airframe. Now.....

            The Cheetah C was unveiled in the early 1990's and was a far more radical upgrade/redesign. Atar 9K50, longer fuselage, beefed up undercarriage, aerodynamic improvements, multi-mission avionics and multimode radar, frameless windscreen .. etc..etc.

            The problem is, most of South Africa's Mirage airframes were utilized in the E upgrade and/or placed in museums. Now, there were about 38 Cheetah C's produced and 16 twin seater B/D's, bringing the total up to 54. There are Mirage 111 CZ/EZ and Cheetah E airframes that you can take photo's of in various museums.... so where did the additional airframes come from?

            Atlas held a manufacturing licence for the Mirage 111 / F1 family, but never announced the production of anything but spares. Suspicion lies with Israel or France..no-one is telling!! Good link below.

            http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/vi...efd5f03c93e092

            Comment

            • googeler
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jul 2006
              • 937

              #86
              Here: http://ipmssa.za.org/ in the article about Cheetah
              it is acknowleged that they received some main fuselage parts from Israel, around which Denel built the Cheetah Cs.

              Comment

              • PhantomII
                Phantoms Phorever
                • Jan 2000
                • 8292

                #87
                I've heard mention of Israel, but that was related to them supplying Mirage airframes.....not Kfirs though.

                Whether these were Neshers that hadn't been converted to Kfirs yet or Mirage IIICJ's & BJ's, they still weren't Kfirs.....at least as far as I know.
                Fox-4!

                Comment

                • Drone
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 45

                  #88
                  Originally posted by PhantomII View Post
                  I've heard mention of Israel, but that was related to them supplying Mirage airframes.....not Kfirs though.

                  Whether these were Neshers that hadn't been converted to Kfirs yet or Mirage IIICJ's & BJ's, they still weren't Kfirs.....at least as far as I know.
                  From a web page on the israeli aircraft inventory : 38 kfirs were sold as Cheetah C and 5 Nesher B were sold as Cheetah D in 1984 (i don't know if its true , just wanted to share this).
                  No israeli MirageIII were sold to south africa - all of their histories are known.

                  Comment

                  • Peter G
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jan 2000
                    • 889

                    #89
                    In November 1989 France approved the fitting of Atar 9K-50 engines to Israeli Kfir offered for export (WAPJ 1).

                    36 Kfir airframes delivered for 36 Cheetah C. Engine is from retired Mirage F1CZ plus some from other sources (see above). Israel made $1.7 billion (WAPJ 20, pg 13)

                    Cheetah E were rebuilt Mirage IIIEZ

                    16 Cheetah D rebuilt from 3 Mirage IIIDZ, 8 Mirage IIID2Z, 5 Mirage 5.

                    Comment

                    • wilhelm
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2004
                      • 1658

                      #90
                      It does sound odd though that the Kfir was modified to receive the larger diameter but shorter J-79... was it then remodiefied to take the Atar again? (albeit the more powerful 9K50). There is also speculation that all the Kfirs were French built anyway....

                      Comment

                      • Peter G
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jan 2000
                        • 889

                        #91
                        Mo mystery there, South Africa was license producing the Atar engine, the US had right of veto over the J79.

                        Comment

                        • PhantomII
                          Phantoms Phorever
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 8292

                          #92
                          Several things about the Cheetah lead me to believe that the aircraft are not Kfirs.

                          So Isarel took Kfirs, yanked out the J-79's and sold them to South Africa?

                          That just sounds weird.

                          Cheetahs lack the ram-air inlet at the base of the tail and the rear fuselage is also somewhat slimmer due to the fact that the aircraft is fitted with the Atar 9K-50 engine as opposed to the much bulkier J-79.

                          Additionally, I've heard mention of the fact that the canards on the Cheetah are different from those on the Kfir? (Of course I think they changed from Kfir C.2 to C.7/10 so perhaps that might be what that comment typically refers to).

                          If the Cheetahs are former Kfirs, were they just completely torn apart and rebuilt (i.e. changing the rear fuselage and tail, etc.)?

                          Anyone else have thoughts on where the Cheetah C airframes actually came from?

                          It seems we are in agreement that the Cheetah E & D airframes are former Mirage III or 5 airframes. The Cheetah C seems to be the source of the controversy......

                          On another subject has anyone seen a Swiss Mirage IIIS actually carrying the Falcon AAM? What hardpoints were they fitted on?
                          Fox-4!

                          Comment

                          • Mpacha
                            Moderator
                            • Jan 2000
                            • 1281

                            #93
                            Originally posted by PhantomII View Post
                            Several things about the Cheetah lead me to believe that the aircraft are not Kfirs.

                            So Isarel took Kfirs, yanked out the J-79's and sold them to South Africa?

                            That just sounds weird.

                            Cheetahs lack the ram-air inlet at the base of the tail and the rear fuselage is also somewhat slimmer due to the fact that the aircraft is fitted with the Atar 9K-50 engine as opposed to the much bulkier J-79.

                            Additionally, I've heard mention of the fact that the canards on the Cheetah are different from those on the Kfir? (Of course I think they changed from Kfir C.2 to C.7/10 so perhaps that might be what that comment typically refers to).

                            If the Cheetahs are former Kfirs, were they just completely torn apart and rebuilt (i.e. changing the rear fuselage and tail, etc.)?

                            Anyone else have thoughts on where the Cheetah C airframes actually came from?

                            It seems we are in agreement that the Cheetah E & D airframes are former Mirage III or 5 airframes. The Cheetah C seems to be the source of the controversy......

                            On another subject has anyone seen a Swiss Mirage IIIS actually carrying the Falcon AAM? What hardpoints were they fitted on?
                            We have been over this before! They are Kfirs with reworked tail sections and built to Kfir 2000 standard, hence different canards to the earlier Kfir. Most of the serials are known. Not all Cheetah D's are Mirages?? 858-862 are Kfirs. They were flown to SA onboard foreign B747's charted by El Al.

                            Nothing weird about it, sanctions ruled and at the time Israel had two customers, one which was later allowed the J-79.
                            pb::

                            Comment

                            • Peter G
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2000
                              • 889

                              #94
                              Taiwan also went as far as ordering 34 C.7 and 6 TC.7, then canceled and replaced by Mirage and F-16.

                              Comment

                              • griffin_pak
                                Senior Member
                                • Mar 2003
                                • 162

                                #95
                                I dont get it?
                                what so special about this pilots helmet?
                                Last edited by griffin_pak; 31st May 2007, 22:08.

                                Comment

                                • Peter G
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2000
                                  • 889

                                  #96
                                  Fitted with helmet mounted display?

                                  Comment

                                  • qsaark
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Sep 2005
                                    • 155

                                    #97
                                    Just curious. What makes Mirage 2000 series so different from rest of the delta wing Mrgae III series for instance (apart from modern avionics/ Radar). Mirage 2000 does'nt have canards even. Is it more maneuverable then Cheetah or Kfir CII which have canrds?

                                    Comment

                                    • Mpacha
                                      Moderator
                                      • Jan 2000
                                      • 1281

                                      #98
                                      Originally posted by qsaark View Post
                                      Just curious. What makes Mirage 2000 series so different from rest of the delta wing Mrgae III series for instance (apart from modern avionics/ Radar). Mirage 2000 does'nt have canards even. Is it more maneuverable then Cheetah or Kfir CII which have canrds?
                                      More powerful M53 engine, fly-by-wire, composite materials and very efficient lift increasing devices, so yes it is more maneuverable!
                                      pb::

                                      Comment

                                      • Krav
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Dec 2005
                                        • 36

                                        #99
                                        Originally posted by PhantomII View Post
                                        On another subject has anyone seen a Swiss Mirage IIIS actually carrying the Falcon AAM? What hardpoints were they fitted on?
                                        Yes, they were carried on the 2 rear fuselage extra pylons, so the configuration was 2 falcons, 2 supersonic tanks and 2 sidewinders (first 9b i think), and nothing in the centerline pylon.
                                        I have to look at my documents, to find those pics!

                                        ----------------------------------------------
                                        ps : thanks for the pic of cheetahC/Rdarter in page1 got an other here :
                                        http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/att...&stc=1&thumb=1
                                        Last edited by Krav; 5th January 2007, 03:05.

                                        Comment

                                        • Krav
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Dec 2005
                                          • 36

                                          "Google est ton ami" :

                                          here is a sufficient illustration, with one carrying :

                                          To my mind, falcon carrying = no centerline tank, no JATO, right?


                                          Bye

                                          Comment

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