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    Even if they could afford the Su-35 in significant numbers, there'd be little point to it, they've already committed to a 5th generation solution in the form of project Azm. They seem to be skipping any additional 4th generation type and moving towards 5th gen, while adding additional capability to the JF-17 via further blocks and upgrades. However, additional used Vipers aren't out of the question, there was a PAF team visiting Denmark recently, although can't read too much into that. More Mi-35s are likely to be purchased to supplement the initial small batch. The Mi-35s are to be used in specific airborne assault units, so final numbers won't be that significant.
    Last edited by Alpha Bravo; 12th April 2018, 12:41.

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      PAF chief had claimed that they would buy J-10 but nothing came out of it ......... I doubt PAF can afford a 5th Gen J-21 when it cannot afford a J-20

      For now developing JF-17 Block 3 and scouting for F-16 via Turkey etc would be a cost effective choice for PAF , I wonder why they did not look at HQ-9 class of long range SAM ?

      Does PAF has an agreement in case of Conflict the Arab AF would deploy their fighters to bolster its fleet ?
      "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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        ^^ I think you're getting the designations mixed up. When the PAF were considering the J-10, it was designated FC-20 by the PAF. The 5th gen J-20 is unlikely to be ever exported by China, let alone the PAF being able to afford it. I don't know what the J-21 is?

        There's a number of reasons why the J-10 was never eventually acquired by the PAF. First, China only very recently approved the export of J-10, and even then only the early A model. The B and C models aren't likely to be approved for export. Second, there's little additional capability the J-10s would have provided the PAF over and above the JF-17, especially considering the roadmap to improve the JF-17s capability and performance in the way of AESA, additional payload, IRST, LDP etc. Third, Vipers became available again to the PAF, and with the newbuild Block 50/52s, additional used examples from Jordan and maybe other sources, and upgraded to the latest configuration would be a more cost effective and easy way to boost 4th gen types.

        PAF's 5th gen ambitions lie in its recently announced 'Project Azm', along with developing a centre of aerospace excellence and research, 'Aviation City'. What that exactly entails is anyone's guess at the moment. It could be a new clean sheet design with assistance from Chinese aerospace entities, a similar development model to the JF-17, or it could be a heavily modified version of the J-31 to suite the PAF's requirements.

        An unwritten defence pact with some of the Gulf states, especially Saudi Arabia, has always been speculated, especially if the rumoured nuclear weapon pact is to be believed. But this belongs in the realm of pure speculation.

        Don't know why long range SAMs have never been acquired, probably a combination of lack of resources and other priorities.
        Last edited by Alpha Bravo; 12th April 2018, 12:42.

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          Does Pakistan really believe it can design, build and test a 5th gen fighter? And is the PAF willing to bet its future fleet on such a dream?

          Or is Project Azm a collaborative venture with China's AVIC or Shenyang for a Pakistani version of the J-31?

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            Don't be stupid, no one really believes they can design and develop a 5th gen fighter by themselves, least of all the PAF. Whether it's a clean sheet design or based on the J-31, it will involve the Chinese. There is the outside chance it could be based on the TFX, or rather, licensed production via some form of partial funding of the TFX, but chances of that are very slim. In terms of 5th Gen, they don't really have any option apart from China.

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              I think china can create export 5G fighter cheaply and fast. After all China finish 4 4G fighters (J10/JH7/J11/JF17) in 1990s budget and that time they don't have world fastest supercomputers and largest spending on semiconductors. On top of that largest unmanned industry. They also diversified away from middleast boom boom which India is exposed.
              https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-N...bia-By-40.html

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                I would think for it to be a credible 5G fighter something in a similar size and layout as the FC-31 but with a single WS-15 would really hit a nice sweet-spot for Pakistan.

                Ironically that would give them something not unlike an F-35...
                Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

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                  Don't be stupid, no one really believes they can design and develop a 5th gen fighter by themselves, least of all the PAF. Whether it's a clean sheet design or based on the J-31, it will involve the Chinese. There is the outside chance it could be based on the TFX, or rather, licensed production via some form of partial funding of the TFX, but chances of that are very slim. In terms of 5th Gen, they don't really have any option apart from China.
                  Well, lots of your compatriots on your nation's defence fora believe that Project Azm is going to be a fully indigenous effort, as ludicrous as that sounds.

                  Anyway, if it is the J-31 that will be the likeliest basis for PAF's next gen fighter, then Project Azm is basically likely to be nothing more than some Pakistani input and customization into a program that has already seen 2 prototypes flying with no Pakistani input so far. Perhaps some avionics choices, weapons choices,

                  the TF-X at least is still in design, with plenty of scope for work packages to be shared with PAC.
                  Last edited by BlackArcher; 13th April 2018, 19:49.

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                    Even if they could afford the Su-35 in significant numbers, there'd be little point to it, they've already committed to a 5th generation solution in the form of project Azm. They seem to be skipping any additional 4th generation type and moving towards 5th gen, while adding additional capability to the JF-17 via further blocks and upgrades.
                    Are you living in cuckoo land? Project Azm? Fifth Gen fighter in PAF... really?

                    When was the last time that any institute or anyone in Pakistan designed a fourth Gen fighter or came close to designing one.
                    JF-17 as we all know has been designed from scratch in PRC by Chengdu. Pakistan'contribution in this project as far as R&D goes is a big zero.

                    For starters, can you or any other Pakistani poster post a pic of a JF scale model undergoing tests in a wind tunnel in Pakistan?? Or can you provide a pic of an Iron bird type rig for testing out the flight control system and the control laws? The answer is again a big no.

                    https://www.google.co.in/url?url=htt...Rtsct3cr6nc_dQ

                    Last time the great PAF couldn't buy eight F-16 block 52 because Uncle Sam wouldn't subsidise the sale and you guys have to pay the full 700 million dollars.
                    You guys couldn't pay this paltry amount and now you are having wet dreams of having a fifth Gen jet in your inventory?

                    Pitiful.

                    multiple reports of Pakistan's serious consideration of acquiring Su-35s and more Mi-35s from Russia.
                    Part of this is due to some disappointment with Chinese equivalents and the desire to diversify away from US equipment as Pakistani-US relations continue to decline.
                    Russia will also sell S-500 and Su-57 to Pakistan, its BFF in Asia. You are really pretty entertaining.
                    Last edited by Arihant; 14th April 2018, 16:10.

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                      Originally posted by Arihant View Post
                      Are you living in cuckoo land? Project Azm? Fifth Gen fighter in PAF... really?

                      When was the last time that any institute or anyone in Pakistan designed a fourth Gen fighter or came close to designing one.
                      JF-17 as we all know has been designed from scratch in PRC by Chengdu. Pakistan'contribution in this project as far as R&D goes is a big zero.

                      For starters, can you or any other Pakistani poster post a pic of a JF scale model undergoing tests in a wind tunnel in Pakistan?? Or can you provide a pic of an Iron bird type rig for testing out the flight control system and the control laws? The answer is again a big no.

                      https://www.google.co.in/url?url=htt...Rtsct3cr6nc_dQ

                      Last time the great PAF couldn't buy eight F-16 block 52 because Uncle Sam wouldn't subsidise the sale and you guys have to pay the full 700 million dollars.
                      You guys couldn't pay this paltry amount and now you are having wet dreams of having a fifth Gen jet in your inventory?

                      Pitiful.



                      Russia will also sell S-500 and Su-57 to Pakistan, its BFF in Asia. You are really pretty entertaining.
                      They are taking baby steps from almost zero aerospace R&D infrastructure. No point in biting more than you can chew. Why reinvent the wheel when someone is happy to teach you. Has India learnt any ground breaking technologies in developing LCA? No.

                      India spent 35 years developing LCA and till now they have only inducted 9 fighters, even that with foreign engine, radar, weapons and more components.

                      So overall who has fared better in terms of adding capability to their AF? 9 LCA or 100 JF17s? Atleast Pakistan now has a proven aircraft development setup with China, which could be replicated for the next gen fighter. Regardless of Pakistani contribution.

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                        ^ From your perspective, Pakistan is light years ahead of India. Good luck and best wishes to you!!

                        It is useless to discuss with such thinking, but still you are forgetting TDs, LSP when you count only the numbers. Also keep the long term numbers in mind, confirmed 123 SP mk1 n mk1a. And another commitment but unconfirmed 201 mk2.

                        Regarding the import contents, it is better to have 40% LCA vs 100% JF-17 imported with 100% LCA vs 0% JF-17 in-country design n development. You know it but choose to ignore it.

                        I dont know why we always end up debating LCA - JF-17, it is sort of useless. Both exists and I hope they dont face each other, and if they do face - let those talk for themself.

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                          Regarding next gen fighter, do you think China will give you full access to its tech like for JF-17. I have some serious doubts on that, how many countries will be operating 5th Gen fighter in next decade? I think, we will be able to count on our fingers. I am quite sure India and Pakistan will not be on the list. Having few TD, LSP will not make it ready to fight.

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                            For operational purposes it doesnt matter if they give full, half or no tech. What matters is whether you have it or not. British nuclear detterent is no less potent just because its based on American trident D5s.
                            Its in China's interest to keep India engaged and they will provide the needful to Pakistan, as they have done previously in form of Nuclear, ballistic and cruise missile technology.

                            Also, when India does get a 5th gen fighter, Pakistan will beg borrow or do whatever to get its hands on whatever is available.

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                              Pitiful
                              The only thing that seems pitiful is the reaction of indian fanboys whenever the PAF so much as twitches...quite pathetic. Not even the PAF claimed they will develop a fifth gen fighter from scratch, so I don't quite understand what all the ball ache is about. There's scant details what so called project 'Azm' is all about, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out what the likely course of action will be, i.e. most likely a joint venture with the Chinese, in the same way as the FGFA is a 'joint venture' with the Russians. It could be based on the export orientated J-31, or different clean sheet design, who knows.

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                                India spent 35 years developing LCA and till now they have only inducted 9 fighters, even that with foreign engine, radar, weapons and more components.
                                You're forgetting the fact that the airframe was designed by Dassault, and the FCS by Lockheed Martin, not to mention the fact that they couldn't even get something as basic as the radome right, which eventually had to be developed by Cobham. And with foreign engine, radar and primary A2A missiles, it's still indigenously developed!! Only in the land of Bollywood.

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                                  Gulf Shield media





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                                    Any more information about the exercise? what sort of missions were conducted etc?

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                                      As far as I know, it included a wide spectrum of scenarios, including air and air-defence strategies, combined air operations, strategic and campaign planning, as well as executing air to ground scenarios and tactics. There was also a land/special forces element involved, including counter insurgency and anti-terrorist exercises.

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                                        RAND: Prospects for U.S. and Pakistan Air Power Engagement

                                        Key Findings


                                        Engagement

                                        The U.S. Air Force (USAF) would be wise to maintain a steady level of engagement with Pakistan Air Force (PAF), rather than trying to scramble for a rapid engagement when the next cycle begins. The USAF should prepare for the next cycle — now. This can and should be done in a manner which does not jeopardize the growing security engagement between the United States and India. But if past is prologue to the future, there will likely be another such turn of the wheel with Pakistan, and it may well arrive (as it has the past two times) quite literally overnight.

                                        Future Trends

                                        The USAF should understand and accept its role as "loss leader" of U.S.-Pakistan relations. The USAF should not expect its relationship with PAF to be one of institutional parity: PAF has less to offer the USAF than vice versa, while the benefits provided by Pakistan (human intelligence for counterterrorism, facilitation of Taliban reconciliation, nonproliferation cooperation, and policy guarantees of regional stability) will accrue to other parts of the U.S. security establishment.

                                        Recommendations


                                        The U.S. Air Force (USAF) should prepare now for the next cycle of overnight engagement.
                                        The USAF should recognize that it has been, and is likely to be in the future, the "loss leader" of U.S.-Pakistan relations.
                                        The USAF and U.S. policymakers should understand the limits of U.S., and particularly USAF, leverage over Pakistan's choices.
                                        The USAF and U.S. interlocutors should calibrate Pakistan's expectations about what is politically feasible in the United States. They should also recognize the impact of the tone of rhetoric by members of the U.S. policy community.
                                        Subject always to changing geopolitical circumstances, the United States should continue to approve maintenance, training, and support for existing Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16s, and be wary of calls to forgo (or accelerate) future transfers.
                                        In cooperation with the Office of the Defense Representative Pakistan, the USAF should request an increase in nonlethal Pakistan-focused International Education and Training for PAF students.
                                        The USAF should offer the opportunity for PAF to send a select officer to serve as an instructor at a USAF school.
                                        The USAF should focus USAF-PAF exercises and training on existing technical capabilities, especially those that support or enable humanitarian aid/disaster relief capabilities.
                                        The United States should — to the extent possible without jeopardizing its relationship with India — consider sales of technical systems that support improved collaboration in areas of shared interests, such as counterterrorism or counterinsurgency missions.
                                        The USAF should discuss the possibility of sharing service lessons learned and best practices through subject-matter expert exchanges.
                                        "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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                                          PAF/USAF interaction is likely to wane once the Vipers start declining in the PAF inventory. Beyond the Vipers, the PAF is unlikely to acquire any US, or Western for that matter, fighter aircraft, and when it comes to options for a future generation fighter to replace the Viper, the PAF's choices will be limited to Chinese options. I don't want to go off topic, but this will be augmented by wider geopolitical shifts occurring in the region and a change in US priorities and posture in the region, all perfectly understandable. The chances of the PAF participating in the likes of Red Flag exercises without a US or Western fighter are very slim. In the long-term, PAF/USAF interaction is likely to be limited to officer/student exchange and other low key activities, such as humanitarian/disaster relief.

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