PAF's FUTURE FIGHTER(S)

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18 years 6 months

Posts: 46

So,we know that the PAF ordered 150 FC-1/JF-17 and also 75 new F-16 from the U.S.A, The previous 32 F-16's are also to be modernized with the MLU. China is currently workin on its J-10 & J-11 projects, these planes will be probably handed over to the PAF during 2010-2025. But as far as the PAF is concerned they need another Gen. 4-5 fighter in its AIR FLEET. Possible choices could be:

Swedish Gripen
Qatari Mirage -2000-V
French Mirage -2000-V
Russian Su's (highly doubt)

Feel free to post a link of any new article that can actually give us info. on which aircraft the PAF is about to purchase.

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Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 12,009

A 5th Generation fighter? Unless they get the XXJ, there's little chance of that ever happening in the near future I'd wager.

The J-11? Highly doubtful. There are some very strict restrictions placed on the FLANKER by the Russians, and for good reason-Sukhoi doesn't want to compete with a potentially cheaper FLANKER for export shares.

If they really have the money to spend, which I have no idea, I'd say why not go for either the Rafale or J-10? J-10 (which would be F-10 I guess in this case) gives them commonality with the FC-1, simplifying and reducing logistical expenses for the two fleets to a small degree. They could also use the same weapons in theory, precluding the need for a whole new system of weapons. Rafale would be the sexier choice though, but the J-10 might just offer a similar level of capability at a far cheaper price and prove to be the better option.

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18 years 6 months

Posts: 46

But the J-10 or Rafle are likely to replace the mirages,is it worth it,if the mirages are modernized with BVR,FLY BY WRE and etc. .........or would the PAF just replace its F-7 "Hopefully"!they are not modern and the PAF contains a total 155 of them!!!!

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 12,009

Ideally, wouldn't the PAF replace their F-7s with the FC-1 (wasn't the JF-17/FC-1 intended to be a J-7/F-7 replacement anyway?), and then early F-16s and Mirages with the J-10 or Rafale? Obviously the early F-16s would be the last to be replaced, as they may be upgraded soon.

Besides, a new airframe is better than an upgraded, very old Mirage III/V airframe. You'll get a better return on your investment as you'll still need to replace those Mirages a few (say around 5 or so) years from now anyway in all likelihood. In that case you'd have effectively wasted the money spent on the upgrade.

Member for

18 years 6 months

Posts: 46

Hm.........True,very true

I have heard that the previous F-16's are to be upgraded with MLU, is that true?

And which one would you recommend more, J-10 or the Rafale?(I say J-10 cause they seem highly manevarable and have a 13 slot for the missiles if im correct)

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 12,009

13 missiles? Not quite. Just because it has a hardpoint doesn't mean it has the right clearance for a missile. It looks to me like the four underfuselage hardpoints (think like the ones the M2000-5 uses to hang MICAs) are used for bombs and don't have laucn rails or clearance to carry PL-12s or other missiles. And in this case I'd think the J-10 would be a great solution. It's most likely going to be a fair sight cheaper than a Rafale, and arguably of a similar level of capability, albeit not possessing reduced frontal RCS.

Member for

18 years 6 months

Posts: 46

Yes,it could be cheaper than Rafale, but are you sure about that?

The chinese could make it a bit more or expensive,or i am kinda guessing that it might be around the same cost(possibly). Since we are China's most reliable ally, they could provide us with the J-10 a bit early than it gets on the market. if not then i am afraid PAF will go for another aircraft. Gripen could sorta match the J-10's capabilities.After all it is a Swedish aircraft!

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 12,009

Gripen might be nice, but the only problem is that they might lack for range being the size that they are. Rafale runs somewhere in the realm of $70 million USD per copy or thereabouts, and I have no doubt that a J-10 could be had for much cheaper than that, especially if you can get FLANKERs in the $30 million USD price range.

Member for

18 years 6 months

Posts: 46

Very Nice,

if the Gripen is worth 70mil. USD.........The PAF would be better off with the J-10, but they will have to be patient considering its not a FINISHED plane. What features and missiles do you think it can carry?

Member for

19 years 4 months

Posts: 3,396

So,we know that the PAF ordered 150 FC-1/JF-17 and also 75 new F-16 from the U.S.A, The previous 32 F-16's are also to be modernized with the MLU. China is currently workin on its J-10 & J-11 projects, these planes will be probably handed over to the PAF during 2010-2025. But as far as the PAF is concerned they need another Gen. 4-5 fighter in its AIR FLEET. Possible choices could be:

Swedish Gripen
Qatari Mirage -2000-V
French Mirage -2000-V
Russian Su's (highly doubt)

Feel free to post a link of any new article that can actually give us info. on which aircraft the PAF is about to purchase.


PAF hasnt ordered 150 JF-17 or 75 F-16s yet. towards the former it is commitment to buy (most money has gone towards development and production which is not equal to ordering a plane) and towards the later it is negotiations.

how on earth these becomes 4.5 generation fighters. alteast these needs Aesa or supercruise ability to be called something better than 4th generation fighter.

and Pak has now started policy of concentrating on economic development and reconcilliation with India. so i dont think there will be any fighter beyond JF-17 and F-16 for foreseable future. and by F-16 i means getting old F-16s from US.

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 12,009

The PAF would be better off with the J-10, but they will have to be patient considering its not a FINISHED plane.

It's arguably further along than the JF-17/FC-1, so I wouldn't be too concerned on that front.

What features and missiles do you think it can carry?

PL-8 and PL-11 have been seen already, and the PL-12 is certainly to be integrated if it isn't already. Apart from that, I'd have no idea really. It does have a gun though :D

Member for

18 years 6 months

Posts: 46

so you are saying the PAF is not to aquire the F-16's or the JF-17?

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18 years 6 months

Posts: 15

I think Pakistan's purse strings are too tight to accomodate anything more than the the F16 and JF-17 programs. Remember Pakistan's budget isn't great, and the JF-17 program is needed to replace a huge and outdated force. The 150 fighters will cost easily 6 billion to put online with weapons, not to mention training and support structure reform. The F16 program will be unimpressive if they dont attach alot of supporting technologies and weapon types to it, meaning it would be not less than 3.8 billion, and as much as 4.2 billion total for 70 units. In both cases emphasis is on numbers rather than quality.
That's a 10 billion dollar airforce overhaul that will take no less than a decade; keep in mind that when you purchase an aircraft for 31 million dollars you dont just put it in a hanger and forget about it, there are huge support costs.

A better idea than trying to get an additional fighter type for trememdous amounts of $$$ would be to try and support indigenous industries in developing expanded capabilities for the projected fighter force. As well if I were the Pakistani brass I would scrap ALL of the the old fighter craft types instead of maintaining any of them, no matter how emotionally attached I might feel; but that's just me.

Member for

19 years 4 months

Posts: 3,396

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/index.html
Pak-US deal on 75 F-16s soon: PAF

By Shakil Shaikh

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Thursday expressed the hope that the United States would soon complete procedures for delivery of 75 multi-role F-16 aircraft of advanced version, while two F-16s to be provided free of cost would not be part of the original demand for 75 planes.

Confirming this, Deputy Chief of Air Staff Air Vice Marshal Shahzad Aslam Chaudhry said the deal for provision of F-16 aircraft was very much there. He was answering questions by journalists, who attended a briefing at the Air Headquarters on Hi-Mark exercise. He said Pakistan would acquire F-16s of an advanced version though the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) always keeps its options open to buy other aircraft. He said that as a goodwill gesture, two F-16s would reach Pakistan by December this year, as these were the two out of four aircraft already available with the Americans.

Air Vice Marshal Shahzad Aslam expressed his optimism that the US would provide the aircraft as required by Pakistan to beef up its fleet of combat aircraft. He, however, rated F-16s as the best option given the existing environment and said that there is no confusion on the capability of F-16 jets.

The PAF officer said the delivery of C-130 cargo aircraft was delayed due to some technical reasons, as these were to be overhauled prior to the delivery. "We are monitoring the daily progress of the overhaul work and these will be delivered to us as soon as the necessary repair work is accomplished, as these were old C-130s already parked for some time."

Responding to another query, he said, the aircraft being manufactured by Pakistan with the help of China — JF-17 Thunder — would be inducted in the PAF fleet in 2007 as the work on its prototype is in progress at a fast pace. "We don’t foresee any impediment in its production path," he said, adding that China had already struck a deal for supply of engines while the aircraft would be fitted with Chinese made avionics. After their induction in the PAF, the requirement of the country’s air force in the mid-tech aircraft would be accomplished, he said.

The PAF officer said it is decision of the government to buy a particular aircraft as per copy of F-22 costs more than $200 million, and JSF plane costs nearly $100 million. He said the PAF needs a mix of super-duper hi-tech, mid-tech aircraft, as it is a wrong impression that F-16 has only symbolic value. On the possibility of accidents during peacetime exercise, he hoped there would be no accident and the missions with more than 8,000 sorties to be flown would be accomplished without an accident. "We cannot afford even one or two accidents.

Largest PAF exercise to start on September 4

Shakil Shaikh

RAWALPINDI: First time in ten years, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will demonstrate its firepower and capability of its fleet, put on test its manpower skills and validate its operational concepts during a month-long Highmark 2005 exercise from September 4.

"Air operations in Highmark are harmonised with land and naval operations to render high training value to combat and support elements of all three services and to put on test new doctrine amidst changed regional and global realities," said Air Vice Marshal Shahzad Aslam Chaudhry, deputy chief of air staff, at the Air Headquarters at Chaklala here Thursday. He was briefing newspersons on the largest PAF exercise -- first at such a high pitch since 9/11.

Last time, the PAF held the same exercise in 1995 and twice planned exercises of similar nature were put off due to complex international scenario, though such peacetime air exercises are absolutely essential to keep men and fleet ready for any combat. Pakistan put off a similar exercise after India and Pakistan conducted nuclear tests in 1998, the 9/11 and 10-month-long hostile standoff in 2002.

AVM Chaudhry, who has been involved in planning all this for last two years and boasted to have done all this for the better air defence and air superiority of the country in any conflict situation, said the PAF has upgraded its aircraft, avionics, weapon systems, radars and now all these along with manpower skills would be put on test in this exercise to be held almost across Pakistan. The exercise follows a war game, Tempest-1, which had focussed on employment concepts of air power by PAF, but differs with the rest in terms of duration, intensity and complexity of air operations.

The deputy chief of air staff said the PAF has also been testing its air-to-air missiles regularly besides other weaponry at Tilla, Thal and Sonmiani firing ranges. He said there have been considerable changes in the geo-political environment and the PAF doctrines aim at defending the country's aerial frontiers from any adversary.

About the PAF capabilities if confronted with a traditional rival, he said despite having old aircraft, the force is capable enough to defend the country's sovereignty and security despite 1 to 3 disparity in number of planes vis-à-vis India, he said.

The PAF officer said that Highmark-2005 is designed to validate some of the PAF operational concepts and would therefore bring out useful analysis for steering future force employment concepts as well as shaping training contours of future air combatants. The scenario of the exercise simulates two opposing forces, Blueland and Foxland, each employed in both offensive and defensive operations.

The American F-16s would fly in an air-superiority role in both offensive and defensive operations, the French Mirages in a ground support role, the Chinese A-5s would support the army, while the mainstay the in air defence role would be the Chinese F-7P/PG aircraft.

To a question, AVM Shahzad Aslam said the prototype of JF-17 Thunder would not be participating in the exercise, as it was still in test and trial phases. He said the aircraft would be inducted in the PAF by 2007. He said the transport and helicopter fleets would fully participate in the exercise, while the army and navy units would join to provide realistic operational scenarios.

He said President General Pervez Musharraf and Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz were fully involved and would also visit to see the progress. He said the political and military leadership have reposed their full confidence in the PAF ability to undertake this momentous task with complete professionalism. He said the expenditure to be incurred on this exercise would be met from the annual budget of the PAF.

In-charge of the exercise Air Commodore Suhail Aman said the PAF avionics, upgrades on aircraft and air defence sensors along with the new ground-based radars are all knit to orchestrate a wide range of tactical air operations. The exercise would cover entire Pakistan from Northern Areas to Jacobabad in Sindh. The opponents would face each other over Tilla Jogian area of Jhelum. Fighter jets including F-16, Mirage, A-5, F-7 and others would take part in the exercise.

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18 years 7 months

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Pakistan to procure 75 F-16 jets from US:
Islamabad: Pakistan is engaged in talks with the US to get 75 F-16 aircraft, a senior air force official said Thursday.

Pakistan's Air Force Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations) Air Vice Marshal Shahzad Chaudhry said the country was holding talks with the US on cooperation in the defence sector, reports Online news agency.

"We are hopeful of acquiring 75 F-16 jets from US. The US will give two F-16 jets free of charge, and these will be acquired in December," Chaudhry said at a press conference.

Eight C-130 planes would also be acquired from America soon, he said.

Chaudhry said the JF-17 thunder manufactured with the cooperation of China would be included in the Pakistan Air Force fleet by 2007.

He asserted that while Pakistan wanted peace and stability in the region, "we want to fortify ourselves in every aspect."

To a question, Chaudhry said the Pakistan Air Force would also initiate joint exercises with Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Turkey.

Stating that American forces had quit the Jacobabad airbase, the official claimed that no airbase of Pakistan Air Force was in US control.

Source... :diablo:

Member for

18 years 6 months

Posts: 46

so i understand that the PAF is to aquire all the F-16's by 2008
and its JF-17's,by 2007.

But that still doesnt explain the "NEW" a/c the PAF wants to aquire.Which one is it supposed to be?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Member for

19 years 4 months

Posts: 5,707

I realy cannot see pakistan recieving all these aicraft by 2008. Its rapidly heading to 2006 and we have not even had confirmation of what avionics and engine the JF17 will have so I dont see how you are going to induct 150 of them in 1 year. Anyway if you read the articles they are saying that the aircraft will start to enter service in 2007/8 not that they will all be in service then.
China seems not to trust pakistan with its latest technology so they will probably have to wait quite sometime for that.
I cant see pakistan looking for another aircraft before 2010 at least, they have to many ongoing large projects. If they want a strike pltform it may be worth looking at the JH7A.

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18 years 6 months

Posts: 46

yeah i was afraid of that :p

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19 years 9 months

Posts: 920

It seems that somehow this summer Pakistan suddenly became a rich country. With a mere 3.7Billion USd defence budget and US millitary aide helping it out and having just gotten out of the IMF black list, nationalism rather than rational thinking seems to be prevailing in the minds of some memebrs here.

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19 years 9 months

Posts: 12,109

HAS there been an official program started and bids recieved from interested parties..like it is done in other foriegn countries such as INDIA (f-16,m2k,f18,mig29,gripen bid) SK (f-15.f-16 ,ef,rafale bid) etc etc.

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18 years 6 months

Posts: 15

It seems that the focus of the Pakistani leaders now is to try and close the gap between Pakistani strength and Indian strength. This would be best served by efficiency and pragmatism in my opinion. Dropping the old material and moving to a multi-role airforce would be much cheaper than keeping outdated and expensive materials.
The Indian fighter bomber force is going to be immense after the induction of 190 Su30 aircraft; spending hundreds of millions to maintain F7s and whatnot is not going to be enough to tip the scales by any means. However, focusing on expanding the capabilities of an excellent fighter and bomber like the F16 would produce much better results. Why suffer economic peril for a third aircraft type in order to just have a new platform you have to build on? The costs clearly outweigh the advantages.