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By: - 18th August 2005 at 21:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You cant use mil avia against terrorist unless its in a conventional war.. doesnt work out in geurrila wars
By: - 18th August 2005 at 22:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Israel has successfully use UAVs to spot mortar and Quassam rocket attacks on civilians. UAVs keep the terrorists in sight until hellfire armed helos arrive to take care of business.
By: - 19th August 2005 at 08:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Predator UAVs carry both the cameras and the Hellfire missiles, and so can act as soon as the target is confirmed and is clear of "non-hostiles"! Of course, the real problem is getting a truly correct identification of your target individual, something that is hard even for a multi-person team in close visual range..... just ask the British anti-terror squad about that!
By: - 19th August 2005 at 11:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Role of aviation? None! That was clear from the very start...
There is also nothing like worldwide-controlled terrorism, these conspiracy theories are beginning to be far more ridiculous than UFO stories. Today, any idiot who has been pissed by his girlfriend and society and desires to see his name in the headlines can make a bomb and blow some school bus or whatever. And to give his desperate action more rumor and credit he writes some memorandum stating that he of course belongs to some very important cell of Al-Qaeda. This has become some kind of fashion, every semi-literate moron who has a hole in his a$$ calles himself Al-Qaeda today...
The best way to fight this phenomenon is to do nothing and ignore them.. Just as you do with a small child who screams out loud to attract your attention.. Simply not to give a damn at all.. Without massive preparation for anti-terrorist war, whining, media coverage and negotiations those individuals would quickly lose any motivation to perform such actions in the future.. But no side is really striving for peace, individuals like Cheney love to see their shares on arms stock rise with more incoming weapons orders, too. Peace has became too expensive and undesirable today...
By: - 19th August 2005 at 12:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The military only makes things bad. It`s simple...if you attack them...they`ll attack you. I agree with Flex.
I would love to see any fighter plane spreading peace :p
By: - 19th August 2005 at 12:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lets get our minds moving and find out ideas to constructively use the airforces to fight the hidden enemy.
How can you possible use the airforce to fight the hiden enemy?
It is impossible enough to use the airforce against the visible enemy in broad daylight, surrounded by civilians etc, how are we going to fight it when it is hidden?
Perhaps drop a bomb from 20000 feet high with an F-16 on a "hidden enemy", that someone may suspect might be hiding @ such and such address?
That doesn't work too well, it happened few times in Iraq, US planes dropping bombs on a house, wiping out whole family including young children, the reason being suspected possible terrorists/insurgents. This is a perfect way to create more terrorists, if you wipe off someones (inocent)family for no reason, it is a good bet that, that someone would spend the rest of his(her) life thinking revenge against you even though might have had anything against you before that.
I personaly believe the Airforce is pretty useless against terrorists.
The only way would probably be to identify them through spies and informers etc and deal with them @ point blank, one by one.
Just my opinion of course, might be wrong.
By: - 19th August 2005 at 14:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, but from what I understood from this "antiterrorist war" all they want is to be left alone.....is it so hard? If they want to kill each other on stadiums...let them. It must bring pleasure to them. Not all people on this Earth have the same values as US, Afghanistan, Russia or Somalia. If they want a Saddam like president let them choose their own president. It`s their right. Isn`t this what democracy stands for? Mm?
This is like in those Sci Fi movies (star gate) where we, as humanoids, see the alien values as not fair(from our point of view) and we try to impose ours..wich might be wrong. We believe in "inocent until proven guilty"....others may believe in "guilty until proven innocent"........both are corect, we can`t judge their believes.....so leave them alone.
If they start it..then we defend and try to come to a reason. Military somehow manages to make it worse. Military somehow always finds an enemy.
By: - 19th August 2005 at 17:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why do we have to think of Mil Avia only as fighter jets? Does it not constitute of helo's UAV etc? Cant recce missions be of use? faster troop transportation? Djcross has given a very good example. I read an article in the papers today about the Indian Army making a point of inducting helo's to fight terrorist in J&K.
By: - 19th August 2005 at 21:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Role of aviation? None! That was clear from the very start...
Not really. How alse would you call the Israeli Air Force's activities in the last couple of years of the Intifada?
The role of the IAF as far as fighting terrorism is to spy, detect, direct forces and eliminate threats. Combat helicopters are best suited for these missions.
UAVs are supporting the fightings both in the land and the air.
And to give an example - you got information that a terror organization is hiding some weapons in some building, what would you do?
That's right, make sure nothing will be left off that building. So here you go, the using of military aviation against terrorism. And that's just one example.
The everyday reality in the middle east shows just how important military aviation is, both in fighting against organized armies and in fighting against terrorist groups.
Bombing of a lathe-shop that produced Qassam rockets-
http://www1.idf.il/SIP_STORAGE/DOVER/files/7/32707.wmv
And that's exactly what the everyday fight against terror looks like from the air.
By: - 19th August 2005 at 22:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, but from what I understood from this "antiterrorist war" all they want is to be left alone.....is it so hard?
So what do you think was the motivation behind some saudi arabian men financed by another saudi arab to fly airplanes into WTC?
By: - 19th August 2005 at 22:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So what do you think was the motivation behind some saudi arabian men financed by another saudi arab to fly airplanes into WTC?
I still have not seen a single proof that shows a connection between bin Laden and WTC, Iraq and WTC, Taleban and WTC or any else Arab organisation and WTC. And let us bet we will never get to see any..
Lemme ask, who has profited most from WTC attacks? Was it really Arabs? :eek: Or rather some individuals behind US military lobby?
By: - 19th August 2005 at 22:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Flex are you suggesting that the US Military was behind the whole episode? That they trained Saudi men for a terrorist attack. OO and yes to cover their angle they made one a/c hit pentagon.
Nice.... concpiracy theory.
By: - 19th August 2005 at 22:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lemme ask, who has profited most from WTC attacks? Was it really Arabs? :eek: Or rather some individuals behind US military lobby?
I don't think the 911 terrorists attacked the WTC for profit.
Yes, defence contractors have profited. However, you can also say that Arab oil countries have also profited from the rise in oil prices since the start of Gulf war 2.
By: - 19th August 2005 at 22:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I still have not seen a single proof that shows a connection between bin Laden and WTC, Iraq and WTC, Taleban and WTC or any else Arab organisation and WTC. And let us bet we will never get to see any..Lemme ask, who has profited most from WTC attacks? Was it really Arabs? :eek: Or rather some individuals behind US military lobby?
What about the "hot tapes" OBL likes to send once a while, on which he admitted, among the rest, that he was the one behind 9.11?
They don't miss a chance to attack the Big Satan (and the small one too) not because they want to gain profit, but because they got nothing to lose.
But anyway, that's nothing to do with aviation.
By: - 19th August 2005 at 22:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
p.s.-> your views might differ if u live in some pastoral european wonderland where cows moo peacefully in the fields and kids bicycle down main st. eating ice cream..just wait till u have a islamic population of around 10% ...esp with imported "preachers" from saudia and pakistan.
hehe, where im from, theres almost 10% moslems... no problems to my knowledge.
By: - 19th August 2005 at 23:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well i must say that not every muslim is a terrorist, but this is also true that 99% of the terrorists are muslims.
By: - 20th August 2005 at 00:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I still have not seen a single proof that shows a connection between bin Laden and WTC, Iraq and WTC, Taleban and WTC or any else Arab organisation and WTC. And let us bet we will never get to see any..Lemme ask, who has profited most from WTC attacks? Was it really Arabs? :eek: Or rather some individuals behind US military lobby?
Well Flex I couldn't agree more with the first part of the above post.
As far the second one is concerned, it doesn't realy matter who proffitted finnancialy.
In regards to the terrorists, they do not need to profit financialy, as long they kill as many as they can, make people live in fear make countries spend bilions of dollars on security etc.
As far as I can see they achieved quite a bit of their objectives, and the worst thing is no one realy knows who they are, whether they were killed already, captured or still having a bit of a laugh somewhere safe, while the good old USA is fighting "the war on terror" somewhere tottally irelevent like Iraq for example.
As far as the US military lobby proffiting from what happened 9/11 everybody can have different conspiracy theories, but I personaly find it very hard to believe that they were involved in planning it etc.
The only thing that might be believable, would be that various spy agency or military inteligence might have had information that "something" may happen or some group planning "something" on US soil, and they didn't do enough to prevent it.
It may be possible that they didn't do enough so something would indeed happen, and they have all the reasons and justification in the world to do whatever they like, attack anywhere they like and get all the funding they like.
I'm not sugesting that that is how it was/is, I'm just saying that is their only involvement that I personally believe might be possible, if any.
I guess it is possible that will never know the whole truth what realy happened and who is realy responsible:)
regards MIGS
By: - 20th August 2005 at 03:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And to give an example - you got information that a terror organization is hiding some weapons in some building, what would you do?
Could you explain this a little bit to me ? Do you mean destroy with an airstrike or do you mean gather the info via drohnes/spyplanes and then destroy the building with dozers ? I mean after Policeforces catched the terrorists...
just wait till u have a islamic population of around 10%
Guess what ? Berlin is the third or second largest Turkish city of the world, and yes, this causes some problems. But still no danger for cows and icecream parlours.
Well i must say that not every muslim is a terrorist, but this is also true that 99% of the terrorists are muslims.
Didn't know that all those guerillas of southern America are muslims, thought they where kommunists or katholics. Or the IRA and ETA. All of them are katholics. FNLCA (seperatists in Corsica) and many more...
Back to the original topic.
I think airpower is useful in several ways. Most important is in my opinion gathering informations. Then the ability to strike fast and deadly discovered terrorist camps around the globe within hours. And last thing would be some kind of commando warfare and police operations with helicopter transportation.
By: - 20th August 2005 at 10:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Could you explain this a little bit to me ? Do you mean destroy with an airstrike or do you mean gather the info via drohnes/spyplanes and then destroy the building with dozers ? I mean after Policeforces catched the terrorists...
It depends. Sometimes the UAVs gather information for the use of the ground forces, and in other times they send the pictures directly to the attack helicopters which take care of the destruction of the building.
As you can see in the video, the IDF chose to destroy that lathe shop from the air. But many of the times it's being done by ground forces, assisted by UAVs.
By: - 20th August 2005 at 14:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Flex are you suggesting that the US Military was behind the whole episode? That they trained Saudi men for a terrorist attack. OO and yes to cover their angle they made one a/c hit pentagon.Nice.... concpiracy theory.
Yes, it is only a conspiracy theory that could be totally wrong... But the story about bin Laden being behind all this, as we are being fed with is no better than that. Have you ever seen any proof regarding his involvement? And have you ever seen a single piece of debris of an *aircraft* crashing into Pentagon? Show me one single photo of Pentagon crash site with visible fragments of wings or tail and I will pay you for that immediately.
Posts: 515
By: raids13 - 18th August 2005 at 21:31
Hi, I have seen a lot of threads dealing with hypothetical scenarios of conflict between Russia and USA, NATO and WP, India and Pakistan. however they usually turn into flame wars, without actually looking at the capabilities of the airforces.
This thread is aimed at disscusing the role of Mil Avia against terrorism. How can a country succesfully utilize its airforces in this fight? What kind of developments should we be looking forward too? Will a strong airforce actually be effective in this war?
I am not only talking about USA here as terrorism is seen by almost every nation today. Wheather it be India, Russia, USA, Pakistan or the african nations.
Lets get our minds moving and find out ideas to constructively use the airforces to fight the hidden enemy.