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  • bring_it_on
    2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
    • Jun 2004
    • 12480

    N011M detection range?

    what is the detection range of the n-011M bars-I? against a taret of RCS 1m^2?? could u also provide reference to this information please.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array
  • flex297
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2003
    • 10590

    #2
    For bomber-sized aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range. Maximum search range for the F-16 in BVR head to head with an f-16 sized target at the range of 140-160 kms. With new transmiter components up to 180 kms.

    http://www.edefenseonline.com/defaul..._10_2005_OM_01

    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...-start-60.html

    These only may be forums, but I got an offical prospect of Phazotron with exactly the same figures (350 kms/200 kms and 140-160 kms against an F-16). A conventional F-16 has frontal RCS approx. 5 sq m, so a 1 sq m target could have different numbers..
    Last edited by flex297; 31st May 2005, 11:56.

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    • bring_it_on
      2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
      • Jun 2004
      • 12480

      #3
      Detection Range Formula: [New RCS/Old RCS]^.25 * original detection range= new detection range.
      Old radar types never die; they just phased array

      Comment

      • flex297
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2003
        • 10590

        #4
        Originally posted by bring_it_on
        Detection Range Formula: [New RCS/Old RCS]^.25 * original detection range= new detection range.
        Nice, thanks!

        OK, so this would be 94 - 107 kms, with new transmitter parts some 120 km for 1 sq m target..

        Comment

        • Harry
          The most F.U.B.A.R
          • Jan 2000
          • 2885

          #5
          350 km search range was originally supposed to be against a loaded Su-27. 400 km against bomber. Wish someone got real figures from the IAF itself but I doubt they'll divulge it.

          I'm surprised that the primary functions of the new Vetrivale RCs (RC-1 and 2) was never published/posted : 1) Automatic PRF selection for targets moving at blind speeds 2) Increase of target tracking capability to 8 targets (each).

          These only may be forums, but I got an offical prospect of Phazotron with exactly the same figures (350 kms/200 kms and 140-160 kms against an F-16).
          ??
          Last edited by Harry; 31st May 2005, 15:06.
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          • George J
            Oracleologist
            • Nov 2003
            • 571

            #6
            Originally posted by Harry
            I'm surprised that the primary functions of the new Vetrivale RCs (RC-1 and 2) was never published/posted : 1) Automatic PRF selection for targets moving at blind speeds 2) Increase of target tracking capability to 8
            Source?

            Also waddya expect from an AF that still like to confuse folks about its MTOW/LTOW. :diablo:
            ________
            Ford Country Sedan specifications
            ________
            Zoloft Settlements
            Last edited by George J; 12th March 2011, 20:54.

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            • flex297
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2003
              • 10590

              #7
              Originally posted by Harry
              ??
              That is the name of designer and manufacturer company...

              Comment

              • bring_it_on
                2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
                • Jun 2004
                • 12480

                #8
                Thats pretty good range..Similar to the block 60 f-16..
                Old radar types never die; they just phased array

                Comment

                • Harry
                  The most F.U.B.A.R
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 2885

                  #9
                  Flex, the N011M is by JSC NIIP, not Phazotron.

                  Similar to the block 60 f-16..
                  No way could that teency weency APG-80 in the F-16's nose have comparable range? Does it even have space for liquid cooling?
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                  • flex297
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2003
                    • 10590

                    #10
                    Originally posted by bring_it_on
                    Thats pretty good range..Similar to the block 60 f-16..
                    Well, on behalf of F-16E I got to mention that the APG-80 is somewhat smaller in size. That makes its performance pretty remarkable. Well, of course, it costs a hell, but Sheiks obviously do not mind...

                    I would be very interested how BARS-29 would perform...

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                    • Harry
                      The most F.U.B.A.R
                      • Jan 2000
                      • 2885

                      #11
                      I would be very interested how BARS-29 would perform...
                      http://img279.echo.cx/my.php?image=n...29front9zl.jpg
                      http://img279.echo.cx/my.php?image=n...s29back2wp.jpg

                      Brochure scan by JaiS.
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                      • flex297
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2003
                        • 10590

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Harry
                        Flex, the N011M is by JSC NIIP, not Phazotron.
                        Ooops. lemme see at home.. Many people usually refer to any Russian radar manufacturer as Phazotron. Try to google for *Phazotron n011m* and see how many links you find..

                        I have found some more things to this topic, a BARS' earlier variant, fitted with a five-kilowatt transmitter, proved to be capable of acquiring a Su-27 sized fighter at a range of over 330 km.

                        BTW, the manufacturer claims the AN/APG-80 to have detective range of twice the range of AN/APG-68(V)7. So, theoretically, it could be quite on par with N011M
                        Last edited by flex297; 31st May 2005, 19:32.

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                        • flex297
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2003
                          • 10590

                          #13
                          Thanks!

                          So that could be some 67 - 80 km for 1 sq m target.

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                          • flex297
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2003
                            • 10590

                            #14
                            Do we got more figures?

                            Aviation Week gives APG-77 range for 1 sq m at some 120 nautical miles, ergo some 220 kms. That would likely be the best performer. What about other devices: APG-79, APG-73, RBE-2, Captor, RDI-2, Ericsson PS-05? Missed something important?
                            Last edited by flex297; 31st May 2005, 19:44.

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                            • bring_it_on
                              2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
                              • Jun 2004
                              • 12480

                              #15
                              Aviation Week gives APG-77 range for 1 sq m at some 120 nautical miles
                              the APG-77 radar range has been reported by aviation week to be 125nm for a 1 m^2 target using the LPI mode..however that is taken using the basic ATF reqirement..the flight test data has shown the f/a-22 (production varient) to have a 5% advantage in the radar range over that ATF requirement..so the actual range is somewhere in between 125 and 132 nm which is roughly 200-210 km.

                              No way could that teency weency APG-80 in the F-16's nose have comparable range? Does it even have space for liquid cooling?
                              Not a lot is known of the apg-80 or the apg-81 for that matter..tha apg 80's radar range quoted by me is from a AW article dated 3/13/00 pg. 24. and has the following information pretaining to the apg-80 and the blk 60...

                              The Block 60 F-16 will have several features sure to be envied by U.S. pilots, said a Lockheed Martin official:
                              Anactiye electronically scanned array (AESA) radar that produces a classified 70-80-mile range against a l-meter-square target. Thats about 10-20 mi. better than the current top-of-the-line F-15C interceptor and three times better than the current USAF F-16. The longer range radar will make the F-16 a much more lethal platform for employing beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles such as the AIM-120. Moreover, it employs frequency hopping for low-probability-of-intercept operation, a technique to slow detection by a foe.
                              An electronic warfare package that includes the most advanced electronic countermeasures and radar counter-counter-measures.
                              The aircraft's radar counter-counter-measures system is the first operational system with an "adaptive cross-polarization capability against coherent monopulse Doppler radars," the Lockheed Martin official said. Less technically, that means the Block 60 will have a defensive system especially designed to foil the most advanced double-digit surface-to-air-missiles. Double-digit SAM systems include the 80-120-mile-range, Russian-made SA-10s and SA-l2s and the emerging S-400 family of missiles with an advertised range of up to 240 mi. The radar's electronic counter-countermeasures use spread-spectrum techniques to see through jamming. In all, the EW system offers 11 new or updated technologies for foiling radars and radar-guided missiles. However, the transfer of these techniques did not require the release of U.S. control over source codes for the EW or radar computers.
                              Since the UAE will absorb at least $1 billion in Block 60 F-16 development costs, Lockheed Martin hopes to reinterest the U.S. Air Force in buying some Block 60 fighters of its own. Currently, USAF is buying what is supposed to be its last 20 Block 50 F-16s for an active-duty squadron at Cannon AFB, N.M., dedicated to "suppression bf enemy air defenses" (SEAD) in Fiscal 2003-05. However, there is an effort to get the purchase of 12 fighters moved into Fiscal 2001. The accelerated purchase would allow USAF's lOth SEAD unit to go into service in Fiscal 2005, two years early, and would allow the Air National Guard to receive F-16Cs ahead of time, speeding retirement of the last F-16As by two years to Fiscal 2005.
                              The UAE deal could also bolster Lockheed Martin's bid to win the ongoing competition in Norway, where it is pitted against the Eurofighter Typhoon. The U.S. company has offered the Norwegians both Block 50+ and Block 60 versions and now has a customer on contract for the latter ready to pay a: portion of the development costs.
                              Dain M. Hancock, president of Fort Worth-based Lockheed Martin Aeronau- tics Co. (LMAC), said the F-16s for the UAE will be produced at the Plant 4 facility leased by the company from the U.S. Air Force. Deliveries are expected to begin in 2004 and continue through 2007.
                              The UAE order for 80 fighters-coupled with 30 for the U.S. Air Force, 24 for Egypt, 50 for Greece and another 50 for Israelis projected to keep the F-16 production line operating for at least an- other seven years until introduction of the Joint Strike Fighter. As of late last week, UAE officials had not selected an engine to power the F-16s, but an LMAC official said a decision is expected "very soon." Pratt & Whitney and General Electric are offering increased-performance, derivative engines, designated as the F100-PW-232 and the F110-GE-132, respectively. Both powerplants are rated at 32,500-lb. static thrust at sea level.

                              As far as the apg-79 radar is concerned it should be atleast as good as the apg-80 if not better..since the naval sect..long time back used the word LONG RANGE when he introduced his talk on network centric warfare pretaining to the SH and the apg-79..as a matter of fact the navy really wanted a LONG RANGE radar for the hornets and super hornets..here is the brochure for the apg-79

                              http://www.raytheon.com/products/ste...s01_050830.pdf

                              These AESA radars are absolutely great and a giant leap in technology over legacy 63.64's....have a new friend at wright patt who was responsible for integration of some of the maintance equipment for the AESA birds down at elmendorf and he used to tell me that the pilots who flew these were all drooling over the capabilities , range etc that it was able to add...imagine having flown all this time with the standard 63 and finally when the f-15's comes to its last legs do they get to fly with them...lucky chaps i would say.Too bad no more f-15C's will be getting this radar due to cost cuts however the E varients would be getting them post 2010 i believe.

                              the APG-63(V)2,apg-79,apg80 are all great peices of technology and awsome retrofits..the apg-77 and apg-80 have some series software behind them aswell!!..these radars will still have their capabilities enhanced with the sub-varients comming up over the years..just like the apg-77 has had a new varient just introduced some days back which incorporated some latest technology from the apg-81 radar making it more maintanable and cheaper to manufactering while slightly improving its capability..the next big radar project for the USAF is the multi-radar-platoform -insertion program which will take the AESA radars that we see even further and come up with a SCALABLE-MODULAR radar that can be scaled up or down in size to be incorporated into various manned and unmanned asstes...the USAF is spending 2-4 billion dollars in comming up with this and be sure the apg-77,79,80,81 will benefit from newer technologies developed from this/these radars..here is more on this...


                              The Multi-Platform Radar Technology Insertion Program was originally a Joint STARS radar upgrade. The program will provide dramatically improved radar performance, accuracy, and revisit rate. The program requires a new datalink -- the next generation data link, the Multi-Platform Common Data Link (MP-CDL). MP-RTIP was restructured in 2000 to develop a common modular, scaleable radar, in three sizes:

                              Large - Wide Area Surveillance (WAS) Platform TBD in FY02 (e.g. MMA, E-8C)
                              Medium - NATO
                              Small - Global Hawk
                              The team will develop the design of a common, modular, scaleable Active Electrically Scanned Array or AESA radar. Northrop Grumman/Raytheon's new MP-RTIP high-resolution synthetic-aperture ground surveillance radar is expected to make the transition from an upgraded E-8 Joint-STARS aircraft to the Global Hawk unmanned reconnaissance aircraft in 2009 and, finally, to the new, manned wide-area surveillance (WAS) aircraft by 2010.

                              While MP-RTIP resolution is classified, it has reportedly improved to about one foot, from more than 12-14 feet in the JSTARS radar. Resolution and range are a function of the radar's antenna size, and are improved by the new generation of electronically scanned transmit and receive modules. The Global Hawk's antenna will be 1.5 ft. high and 5 ft. long. For a larger manned platform, the size grows to 2 ft. high and 18 ft. long for export and 2 ft. X 24 ft. for the currently undefined WAS aircraft.MP-RTIP will give the U.S. Air Force a tremendous increase in its ability to detect, track and identify both stationary and moving ground vehicles. This modular technology builds on the demonstrated value and capability of the Joint STARS system, and is readily adaptable to both manned and unmanned systems.

                              Northrop Grumman will apply its experience on programs such as the U.S. Air Force F-22, F-16 Block 60 and the Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter to design an active electronically scanned array radar with sub-arrays that can be assembled into antennas of different sizes.

                              The United States is offering MP-RTIP technology to NATO to meet the alliance's stated requirement for its own AGS system. NATAR will meet NATO's need for a multinational system that is strategic and tactical as well as completely interoperable with other similar national systems.

                              http://www.irconnect.com/noc/pages/n....mhtml?d=45031

                              SOME PICS




                              APG-77~~~~DA BOSS!



                              apg-63(v)2





                              apg-79
                              Last edited by bring_it_on; 31st May 2005, 20:52.
                              Old radar types never die; they just phased array

                              Comment

                              • Harry
                                The most F.U.B.A.R
                                • Jan 2000
                                • 2885

                                #16
                                Good read. What are the scan zone limits for the western radars? I assume they don't exceed 70 deg. in azimuth and elevation, given the limitations faced with all phased arrays?
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                                • flex297
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Aug 2003
                                  • 10590

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by bring_it_on
                                  the APG-77 radar range has been reported by aviation week to be 125nm for a 1 m^2 target using the LPI mode..however that is taken using the basic ATF reqirement..the flight test data has shown the f/a-22 (production varient) to have a 5% advantage in the radar range over that ATF requirement..so the actual range is somewhere in between 125 and 132 nm which is roughly 200-210 km.
                                  1 nautical mile equals 1.852 km, ergo 125-132 miles are likely 231.5 - 244.5 kms Damn, what a beast!

                                  Comment

                                  • bring_it_on
                                    2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
                                    • Jun 2004
                                    • 12480

                                    #18
                                    sorry harry was adding some more info..Will work on that and post ASAP
                                    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

                                    Comment

                                    • bring_it_on
                                      2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
                                      • Jun 2004
                                      • 12480

                                      #19
                                      1 nautical mile equals 1.852 km, ergo 125-132 miles are likely 231.5 - 244.5 kms

                                      bring_it_on :- smashes himself on the head.


                                      HARRY-


                                      The AN/APG-77 radar antenna is a elliptical, active electronically scanned antenna array of 2000 transmitter/receive modules which provides agility, low radar cross section and wide bandwidth. The radar is able to sweep 120 degrees of airspace instantaneously. In comparison to the F-15 Strike Eagle's APG-70 radar takes 14 seconds to scan that amount of airspace. The APG-77 is capable of performing this feat by electronically forming multiple radar beams to rapidly search the airspace.

                                      The system exhibits a very low radar cross section, supporting the F-22's stealthy design. Reliability of the all-solid-state system is expected to be substantially better than the already highly reliable F-16 radar, with MTBF predicted at more than 450 hours.

                                      The APG-77 radar offers significant advantages over previous combat radars. Among its most attractive benefits is the integration of agile beam steering. This feature allows a single APG-77 radar to carry out multiple functions, such as searching, tracking, and engaging targets simultaneously. Agile beam steering also enables the radar to concurrently search multiple portions of airspace, while allowing continued tracking of priority targets.

                                      The Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) capability of the radar defeats conventional RWR/ESM systems. The AN/APG-77 radar is capable of performing an active radar search on RWR/ESM equipped fighter aircraft without the target knowing he is being illuminated. Unlike conventional radars which emit high energy pulses in a narrow frequency band, the AN/APG-77 emits low energy pulses over a wide frequency band using a technique called spread spectrum transmission. When multiple echoes are returned, the radar's signal processor combines the signals. The amount of energy reflected back to the target is about the same as a conventional radar, but because each LPI pulse has considerably less amount of energy and may not fit normal modulation patterns, the target will have a difficult time detecting the F-22.

                                      The F-22 and its APG-77 radar will also be able to employ better Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR). This is accomplished by forming fine beams and by generating a high resolution image of the target by using Inverse Synthetic Aperture radar (ISAR) processing. ISAR uses Doppler shifts caused by rotational changes in the targets position to create a 3D map of the target. The target provides the Doppler shift and not the aircraft illuminating the target. SAR is when the aircraft provides the Doppler shift. The pilot can compare the target with an actual picture radar image stored in the F-22's data base.
                                      GLOBAL SECURITY

                                      I really could not find more info on the others but i would believe that the raytheon manufactered apg-79 would or should have similar qualities.
                                      Old radar types never die; they just phased array

                                      Comment

                                      • Hyperwarp
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2004
                                        • 3694

                                        #20
                                        F-16 ABR 275 km (came across this same figure at another aite)

                                        http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dh...es/PG/PGSA.htm

                                        have just one tiny pic of the AN/APG-80
                                        Important Hyper Note: I am NOT an Aeronautical Engineer NOR an Aerospace Expert, etc, etc nor do I claim to be one.
                                        Regards,
                                        Hyper McStupid

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