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By: - 7th March 2005 at 03:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Gs had 9 hardpoints like the S models:
2 wing tips
4 wing pylons (2 under each wing)
1 centerline pylon
2 fuselage pylons
By: - 7th March 2005 at 04:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's a good book, but I found a couple of minor errors concerning the F-102 and 106 bases...PM me if you'd like the corrections.
By: - 7th March 2005 at 04:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm interested in those errors, but I'll have to get those later. I'm still curious about the -104.
Are you certain that the G models had nine hardpoints? I've yet to find a picture of a G with all nine fitted. What about the CF-104 and the C/D models then?
By: - 7th March 2005 at 12:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I haven't seen it either
but if you look at the top left photo on page 170, you can see a F-104S and there is quite some room in between those AIM-9s, on page 165 is says that these are among the changes in the F-104S. its funny though that is says these are "extra" since the G already had a pair but beneath the fuselage. I guess that option is no longer available of the S, but it can now carry heavier/bigger loads on those points.
on page 190, there is a G with two AIM-9 pylons on the fuselage, but as you can see, a lot closer, no room for the centre line, so I doubt you will find a picture with all seven (or nine?) fitted.
however, like you said, it remains highly doubtful that the F-104G had four underwing pylons in total, and I don't think it had. Even pictures showing the weapons options don't show any third and fourth wingpylon.
By: - 7th March 2005 at 13:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As far as air-to-air loadouts go I believe only the outboard underwing stations were cleared for AIM-7 and Aspide radar-guided AAM's. The wingtips, fuselage pylons (not counting the centerline of course), and both sets of wing hardpoints (inboard and outboard) were cleared for AIM-9. So theoretically you could carry up to eight AIM-9's, or two Aspide/AIM-7 and six AIM-9, but naturally the only place you'd have room for a fuel tank would be on the centerline and with the F-104 that's not much. I've seen a picture of an F-104S loaded with four tanks (two wingtip and two inboard) and two AIM-7 (outboard) and two AIM-9 (fuselage), and nothing on the centerline. That's a fairly hefty loadout.
As far as the G is concerned, there's a flight sim called Strike Fighters Project 1 and it has the F-104G. When you load AIM-9's on the fuselage, the pylons are so close together that it looks like they are either a dual mount (perhaps just not modelled well in the game) or so close that the centerline cannot be fitted. I wish there were some good photos to figure this stuff out.
As far as anti-ship missiles go I believe only the inboard underwing pylons on the F-104S (and the ONLY underwing pylons on the G it would seem) are cleared for those, so two Penguins (in the case of Norwegian aircraft) or two Koromorans (in the case of German and Italian birds) would be your max load.
I wonder if Arthur knows anything about any of this.
I'm also curious as to whether the A/B models had any hardpoints other than the wingtip stations.
By: - 8th March 2005 at 01:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
F-104S
empty equipped 6758 kg
MTOW 14060 kg
1= 907 kg
2= 113 kg
3= 113 kg
4= 454 kg
5= 454 kg
6= 227 kg
7= 227 kg
8= 454 kg
9= 454 kg
= 3403 kg total ext. load which left 3900 kg for int. load
By: - 8th March 2005 at 07:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I bought a Hasegawa F-104G/J model kit today, and I have it configured in the air-to-air role with German Marineflieger markings. It's got wingtip tanks and the fuselage-mounted Sidewinders. They are mounted on a dual rack, which you can tell is fitted in place of the usual centerline hardpoint so from what I can tell the G variant doesn't have the two extra fuselage positions of the S. The question remains as to whether the aircraft had two hardpoints UNDER each wing or just one. It would seem that the answer is one because when the book refers to the CF-104 a caption on one of the pictures states that the Starfighter was hampered in air-to-ground operations. As a result the Canadians tended to use dual racks for both bombs (namely Mk-82, Mk-20 Rockeye, and BL.755) as well as rockets (6-shot and 19-shot pods with CRV-7 rockets). The reason I point this out is because to my knowledge the CF-104 is basically the same thing as the F-104G, at least for the most part.
Anyone have any thoughts on any of this?
By: - 8th March 2005 at 12:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
MFG F-104G (CF-104 identical)
1 belly hardpoint for single and double carrier
1 wing hardpoint each for single and double carrier
1 wing-tip hardpoint each for single carrier
5-8 ext. weapons are possible (5 hardpoints only)
empty equipped 6913 kg
TOW clean 9950 kg (no tip-tanks)
MTOW 13068 kg
By: - 8th March 2005 at 17:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's kinda what I was thinking Sens. I do have another question though. Could the F-104 carry a dual bomb rack on the centerline like under the wings or are you referring to the two AIM-9's when you list double carrier for the centerline.
I'm interesting also in finding out every single weapon/store type carried by the F-104G/CF-104.
By: - 8th March 2005 at 23:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No bombs under the centerline, either the centreline pylon was used (fuel/recce pod/nuclear weapon), or the shoulder Sidewinder-pylons were used.
Conventional AG ordnance, at least for the G/CF was limited to the underwing pylons, either single or double.
By: - 9th March 2005 at 00:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Art,
Normally I'd assume you were correct, but the Century Jets book has a drawing of a CF-104, with two BL.755's under each wing on dual-mounts and a single BL.755 on the centerline. I also believe I've seen a -104 of some type with a regular Mk-80 series bomb on the centerline.
Any ideas?
By: - 9th March 2005 at 00:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
To add to my earlier post I found a forum where some guy who was a CF-104 armourer said that they would load bombs on the centerline, although the TCS (Twin-Stores Carrier) was only fitted to the two underwing hardpoints, and in fact they typically flew missions with five BL.755 (or Mk-82 and later Mk-20 Rockeye) cluster bombs plus wingtip tanks.
The only issue I have left to figure out is which if any F-104G's and J's got the new fuselage hardpoints that the S model had. I've seen it stated a few times that some G's and J's got these hardpoints. Some sources even went so far as to say that it allowed the centerline hardpoint to still be used, so that would make for seven hardpoints on the F-104G and J. I've never seen a picture of one fitted this way though.
By: - 9th March 2005 at 00:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That would be new to me - at least from what i know (well, most is based on Dutch F-104G operations), no AG weapons were carried on the underfuselage hardpoint. You say it's a drawing and not a photo (let alone an operational photo)...
The centerline pylon was also used for the practice bomb dispenser (SUU-20? Not really sure about those designations), i forgot to mention that. But a bulky BL755 under the centerline - doesn't that leave awfully little ground clearance, let alone a totally worthless combat radius? It surely does not sound like a feasible loadout to me.
By: - 9th March 2005 at 00:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's kinda what I was thinking Sens. I do have another question though. Could the F-104 carry a dual bomb rack on the centerline like under the wings or are you referring to the two AIM-9's when you list double carrier for the centerline.I'm interesting also in finding out every single weapon/store type carried by the F-104G/CF-104.
In this case two AIM-9s ("Katamaran") all related to MFG
Under wing DLT 2 x BL 755, 1 x MK 83, 1 x FFAR 70mm 19 tubes or 7 tubes,
with DLT 2 x FFAR 70mm 19 tubes each, LFK Komoran or LFK AS 30 or LFK AS 20, asymetrical load with 1 LFK Komoran and ET.
By: - 9th March 2005 at 00:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Little known, the F-104G could carry a centre-line weapon and four ext. tanks. In that configuration it could travel at 200 feet ABGL for two hours at speeds ~420-440 kt.
By: - 9th March 2005 at 05:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well Art, I can understand why you would be hesitant to believe me, but like I said I saw the posts of a guy who used to be a CF-104 armorer, and he said that they did load them with five BL.755's and then of course the two wingtip tanks.
By: - 9th March 2005 at 06:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well Art, you wanted photographic proof that the Canucks used the Zipper with a five-bomb load and here it is. A CF-104 dropping an Mk-82 Snakeye. I believe it was an aircraft used by the Weapons Evaluation Center as evidenced by the X on the vertical tail.
By: - 9th March 2005 at 06:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You know what it takes to convince me ;) - thanks PII.
Posts: 7,989
By: PhantomII - 6th March 2005 at 22:37
I'm been reading the F-104 section of my new Century Jets books, and it's very good, but I am really confused about something....naturally this something being weapons pylons.
From what I can tell the F-104A/B had only the wingtip positions used either for tanks or AIM-9's.
The F-104C/D added one hardpoint under each wing and a centerline hardpoint.
The F-104G confuses me because some sources say it had the same pylons as the F-104C, but state that the G had TWO hardpoints under each wing, and then other sources say it had one hardpoint under each wing plus the centerline and a pair of missile rails next to the centerline hardpoint.
Then of course the S model had the full 9 hardpoint loadout.
So what is the truth with the G and the C/D series? I've got an F-104C kit and I have it configured with a tank under each wing, a wingtip Sidewinder and a pair of separate Sidewinder rails on either side of the centerline hardpoint (not the duel Sidewinder carried you sometimes see on the F-104 centerline). So what's the truth here?