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  • panzerfeist1
    Rank 6 Registered User
    • Feb 2018
    • 413

    #41

    "fishing boat are smaller than naval vessel but they aren't small enough to be invisible to satellite image. The AIS is used because you don't have satellite at all location."

    So your telling me that the US kept track of 85% of other countries majorly doing fishing by letting them use their GPS? Does this forum have a facepalm emoji?

    . Can you read every word before you make a reply? do you see they talk about inside and outside? indubitably, signal is better heard when noise is lowered.

    I read every word from your quote and your quote exactly refers to what I have said this an entire time. The entire 1st paragraph talks about circuit, frequency noise and signals. the 2nd paragraph takes about the idea of ohm resistance, etc another topic talking about interference but this of course has nothing to do with background noise and the signals being measured.

    noise within a receiver and communication systems. Yes noise like this exists with background noise. But refer back to the chinese only refering to background noise which relates to your external noise definition than refer back to what the chinese have said again about S/N ratio is which only defines the signal being measured from the background and they have said the background noise or external noise however you want to say it since they are the same thing has been lowered 100 times.

    Here let me teach you English. "The official propaganda of the Russians is generally the same: the detection distance is too far, the energy conversion efficiency is as high as 60%, the traditional radar is only 30%, and the noise is 100 times lower than the conventional radar, which greatly improves the signal-to-noise ratio, and the theoretical detection distance for the stealth target. More than 500 kilometers!"

    "noise is 100 times lower than conventional radar". this noise is defined as background noise in the definition of the S/N ratio. S/N ratio according to its definition measures a received signal from the amount of background noise interfering with the signal from better being heard. "which greatly improves the signal-to-noise ratio" After they stated the noise is lowered they say the S/N ratio has improved. to improve the S/N ratio you either strengthen the signal or lower the noise causing interference with the signal.

    I got a questionaire for you.

    If you lower the internal or external noise which causes interference with the signal will the signal be better heard?

    Photonic radar: reduce noise by eliminating the up and down-conversion.

    Notice that I have never disagreed with this. But you seem to act like this next important feature does not exist for some reason.

    https://phys.org/news/2014-03-fully-...sed-laser.html

    The radar system, part of a project known as PHODIR (Photonics-based fully digital radar) is an effort to improve the tracking and speed calculation abilities of current electronic signal based systems. It's well understood that making improvements in such a system will require higher frequency signals, something that can't be done with current systems due to an increase in noise that creates more uncertainty in the signals received. For that reason, scientists have been looking to use laserssuch signals are much more stable.

    unstable signals cause more noise than stable signals. I got plenty of more sources if you are not convinced. Italy who started their version have got it to the same level as a conventional radar and plan to still improve it back from 2014, Raytheon's project manager in 2017 thinks the DOD should start producing it. RTI atleast has dates of when to start a mass laser module production and usually one does not do this if they have the same results as the US naval research laboratory back in 2014 who reported to have the same issues as the italians or the ability to allow satellites to track low altitude targets and are willing to allow their own company to pay out of their pockets to launch 1 satellite.

    https://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/92836/factsheet/en Sadly the Phodir project seems to be closed on this site. There is also one more important benefit that they have not went into detail and that is how would the performance of a FICs based jammer compare to a MMIC since they have said it would outperform conventional jammers and that these ROFAR systems are more immune to jamming. So if the Chinese were right about noise being lowered 100 times better target detection and tracking seeing a .01m2 instead of a 1m2 target from 400kms away. Than the next question is how immune are FICS based radars compared to MMIC ones and how much do FICS based airborne jammers outperform MMIC ones. KRET 2018 book went into some detail so maybe later they will give performance evaluations next.

    3. I gave you the image of F-18 with Harpoon, it isn't only a ship launch missile

    You should have gave me the video to begin with but due to physics this would still effect the range and I have not come to an agreement yet that it can be used for aerial targets but if it has the ship has defenses to deal with it and send aircrafts which still makes radar balloons a general good idea.

    Not not to waste further points but this should have added back to point 1. If you think it gives the location away of a ship how about this idea not using the balloon but if identified by another vessel for example equipped with brahmos missiles than quickly ascend the balloon.

    Still not convinced that photon radar balloons are not a bad idea? Do you happen to also by any chance go by the name euromaster at F-16.net?
    Last edited by panzerfeist1; 16th August 2019, 17:19.
    I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

    Comment

    • moon_light
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • May 2012
      • 1033

      #42
      Originally posted by panzerfeist1 View Post
      "fishing boat are smaller than naval vessel but they aren't small enough to be invisible to satellite image. The AIS is used because you don't have satellite at all location."

      So your telling me that the US kept track of 85% of other countries majorly doing fishing by letting them use their GPS? Does this forum have a facepalm emoji?

      . Can you read every word before you make a reply? do you see they talk about inside and outside? indubitably, signal is better heard when noise is lowered.

      I read every word from your quote and your quote exactly refers to what I have said this an entire time. The entire 1st paragraph talks about circuit, frequency noise and signals. the 2nd paragraph takes about the idea of ohm resistance, etc another topic talking about interference but this of course has nothing to do with background noise and the signals being measured.

      noise within a receiver and communication systems. Yes noise like this exists with background noise. But refer back to the chinese only refering to background noise which relates to your external noise definition than refer back to what the chinese have said again about S/N ratio is which only defines the signal being measured from the background and they have said the background noise or external noise however you want to say it since they are the same thing has been lowered 100 times.

      Here let me teach you English. "The official propaganda of the Russians is generally the same: the detection distance is too far, the energy conversion efficiency is as high as 60%, the traditional radar is only 30%, and the noise is 100 times lower than the conventional radar, which greatly improves the signal-to-noise ratio, and the theoretical detection distance for the stealth target. More than 500 kilometers!"

      "noise is 100 times lower than conventional radar". this noise is defined as background noise in the definition of the S/N ratio. S/N ratio according to its definition measures a received signal from the amount of background noise interfering with the signal from better being heard. "which greatly improves the signal-to-noise ratio" After they stated the noise is lowered they say the S/N ratio has improved. to improve the S/N ratio you either strengthen the signal or lower the noise causing interference with the signal.

      I got a questionaire for you.

      If you lower the internal or external noise which causes interference with the signal will the signal be better heard?

      Photonic radar: reduce noise by eliminating the up and down-conversion.

      Notice that I have never disagreed with this. But you seem to act like this next important feature does not exist for some reason.

      https://phys.org/news/2014-03-fully-...sed-laser.html

      The radar system, part of a project known as PHODIR (Photonics-based fully digital radar) is an effort to improve the tracking and speed calculation abilities of current electronic signal based systems. It's well understood that making improvements in such a system will require higher frequency signals, something that can't be done with current systems due to an increase in noise that creates more uncertainty in the signals received. For that reason, scientists have been looking to use laserssuch signals are much more stable.

      unstable signals cause more noise than stable signals. I got plenty of more sources if you are not convinced. Italy who started their version have got it to the same level as a conventional radar and plan to still improve it back from 2014, Raytheon's project manager in 2017 thinks the DOD should start producing it. RTI atleast has dates of when to start a mass laser module production and usually one does not do this if they have the same results as the US naval research laboratory back in 2014 who reported to have the same issues as the italians or the ability to allow satellites to track low altitude targets and are willing to allow their own company to pay out of their pockets to launch 1 satellite.

      https://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/92836/factsheet/en Sadly the Phodir project seems to be closed on this site. There is also one more important benefit that they have not went into detail and that is how would the performance of a FICs based jammer compare to a MMIC since they have said it would outperform conventional jammers and that these ROFAR systems are more immune to jamming. So if the Chinese were right about noise being lowered 100 times better target detection and tracking seeing a .01m2 instead of a 1m2 target from 400kms away. Than the next question is how immune are FICS based radars compared to MMIC ones and how much do FICS based airborne jammers outperform MMIC ones. KRET 2018 book went into some detail so maybe later they will give performance evaluations next.

      3. I gave you the image of F-18 with Harpoon, it isn't only a ship launch missile

      You should have gave me the video to begin with but due to physics this would still effect the range and I have not come to an agreement yet that it can be used for aerial targets but if it has the ship has defenses to deal with it and send aircrafts which still makes radar balloons a general good idea.

      Not not to waste further points but this should have added back to point 1. If you think it gives the location away of a ship how about this idea not using the balloon but if identified by another vessel for example equipped with brahmos missiles than quickly ascend the balloon.

      Still not convinced that photon radar balloons are not a bad idea? Do you happen to also by any chance go by the name euromaster at F-16.net?
      1. "Global Fishing Watch is a website launched in September 2016 by Google in partnership with Oceana and SkyTruth "to provide the worlds first global view of commercial fishing activities." At any moment, 200,000 vessels are publicizing their locations via the Automatic Identification System (AIS)"
      "The automatic identification system (AIS) is an automatic tracking system that uses transponders on ships and is used by vessel traffic services (VTS). When satellites are used to detect AIS signatures, the term Satellite-AIS (S-AIS) is used. AIS information supplements marine radar, which continues to be the primary method of collision avoidance for water transport.[citation needed]

      Information provided by AIS equipment, such as unique identification, position, course, and speed, can be displayed on a screen or an electronic chart display and information system (ECDIS). AIS is intended to assist a vessel's watchstanding officers and allow maritime authorities to track and monitor vessel movements. AIS integrates a standardized VHF transceiver with a positioning system such as a GPS receiver, with other electronic navigation sensors, such as a gyrocompass or rate of turn indicator. Vessels fitted with AIS transceivers can be tracked by AIS base stations located along coast lines or, when out of range of terrestrial networks, through a growing number of satellites that are fitted with special AIS receivers which are capable of deconflicting a large number of signatures."
      2. S/N ratio is affected by both and external background noise, read up AESA - PESA relation. External background noise can't be reduced.
      In Photonics radar, internal noise is reduced by canceling the need for up/down conversion, noise from up/down conversion is internal noise
      3. I shouldn't have to, you can find the video if you were looking for it. I don't enjoy spoon feed information to anyone, it is time consuming and tiresome.
      4. No, should you conceive that I am a sock puppet coming to get you then we can stop talking immediately.
      Last edited by moon_light; 20th August 2019, 03:50.

      Comment

      • panzerfeist1
        Rank 6 Registered User
        • Feb 2018
        • 413

        #43
        @moonlight


        1. "Global Fishing Watch is a website launched in September 2016 by Google in partnership with Oceana and SkyTruth "to provide the worlds first global view of commercial fishing activities." At any moment, 200,000 vessels are publicizing their locations via the Automatic Identification System (AIS)"
        "The automatic identification system (AIS) is an automatic tracking system that uses transponders on ships and is used by vessel traffic services (VTS). When satellites are used to detect AIS signatures, the term Satellite-AIS (S-AIS) is used. AIS information supplements marine radar, which continues to be the primary method of collision avoidance for water transport.[citation needed]

        Information provided by AIS equipment, such as unique identification, position, course, and speed, can be displayed on a screen or an electronic chart display and information system (ECDIS). AIS is intended to assist a vessel's watchstanding officers and allow maritime authorities to track and monitor vessel movements. AIS integrates a standardized VHF transceiver with a positioning system such as a GPS receiver, with other electronic navigation sensors, such as a gyrocompass or rate of turn indicator. Vessels fitted with AIS transceivers can be tracked by AIS base stations located along coast lines or, when out of range of terrestrial networks, through a growing number of satellites that are fitted with special AIS receivers which are capable of deconflicting a large number of signatures."

        Google huh. https://breakingdefense.com/2012/05/...cluding-us-na/

        VIRGINIA BEACH, VA: Google will soon make public information about virtually every ship at sea, giving the current location and identity even of American warships. Meanwhile, the company is consulting with the Navy and others about security issues.
        UPDATED: (3:30 p.m.) Clarified Google Uses Satellite Technology, Not Building Satellites
        Google paid several million dollars for the satellite technology to pinpoint ships locations. These things cost three million dollars for the whole program, Michael Jones, Chief Technology Advocate at Google Ventures, said at the annual Joint Warfighting Conference held by the US Naval Institute and the electronics industry group AFCEA. Google has talked to representatives of 50 navies worldwide about their new technology and has discovered it tracks ships better than their own commanders can. I watch them and they cant see themselves, Jone said. It angers me as a citizen that I can do this and the entire DoD cant.

        https://www.satellitetoday.com/innov...ctivities-sea/

        From this stage we get the output of vessels that do have AIS and vessels that were detected only in the imagery but do not transmit AIS. And now its a new ball game, Zeisel said.
        In order to catch illegal fishers red-handed, for example, ISI must be able to predict where the vessel will be in a few hours time to know where to aim the cameras of high-resolution optical satellites. To achieve this, the company turns again to AI algorithms, leveraging multi-agent simulation and deep learning techniques alongside AIS historical behavior. [Were] simulating all the possible positions of the vessel, Zeisel said. At the end, you get a heat map with a statistical probability of where the vessel can be in up to 12 hours.

        If you somehow dont think Russian satellites are not watching US vessels leave the east coast, to continuously monitor where they are heading to next like Syria than I do not know what to tell you. Identifying where US naval ports are located is not a difficult task to do even for regular citizens with an internent connection. US Naval ships happen to be at naval ports, if they leave with a fleet you thinks its going to be a struggle with satellites giving 24/7 coverage. If you somehow believe in the fantasy that they cant be monitored when they leave their ports than you can hide the balloon or use it only if you are spotted by another source. Whatever floats your fishing boat dude.

        S"/N ratio is affected by both and external background noise, "

        by both and external? what are these both things you are talking about in addition to external background noise there buddy?

        "read up AESA - PESA relation"

        Conventional radars that have absolutely nothing to do with ROFAR right?

        "External background noise can't be reduced."

        Have you findly made up your mind about background noise? Remember there is more interference in electronic received RF signals than compared to a photonic radar which I already gave you a source. The less interference or noise the better the signal is heard this does not change the end result of the differences between a radar that uses FICs to one that uses MMICs.

        3. I shouldn't have to, you can find the video if you were looking for it. I don't enjoy spoon feed information to anyone, it is time consuming and tiresome.

        your just not being cooperative which I love to be.

        4. No, should you conceive that I am a sock puppet coming to get you then we can stop talking immediately.

        Have you already used this redundant post before or was it mig-31bm? It seems too familiar.
        I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

        Comment

        • moon_light
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • May 2012
          • 1033

          #44
          Originally posted by panzerfeist1 View Post
          @moonlight


          1. "Global Fishing Watch is a website launched in September 2016 by Google in partnership with Oceana and SkyTruth "to provide the worlds first global view of commercial fishing activities." At any moment, 200,000 vessels are publicizing their locations via the Automatic Identification System (AIS)"
          "The automatic identification system (AIS) is an automatic tracking system that uses transponders on ships and is used by vessel traffic services (VTS). When satellites are used to detect AIS signatures, the term Satellite-AIS (S-AIS) is used. AIS information supplements marine radar, which continues to be the primary method of collision avoidance for water transport.[citation needed]

          Information provided by AIS equipment, such as unique identification, position, course, and speed, can be displayed on a screen or an electronic chart display and information system (ECDIS). AIS is intended to assist a vessel's watchstanding officers and allow maritime authorities to track and monitor vessel movements. AIS integrates a standardized VHF transceiver with a positioning system such as a GPS receiver, with other electronic navigation sensors, such as a gyrocompass or rate of turn indicator. Vessels fitted with AIS transceivers can be tracked by AIS base stations located along coast lines or, when out of range of terrestrial networks, through a growing number of satellites that are fitted with special AIS receivers which are capable of deconflicting a large number of signatures."

          Google huh. https://breakingdefense.com/2012/05/...cluding-us-na/

          VIRGINIA BEACH, VA: Google will soon make public information about virtually every ship at sea, giving the current location and identity even of American warships. Meanwhile, the company is consulting with the Navy and others about security issues.
          UPDATED: (3:30 p.m.) Clarified Google Uses Satellite Technology, Not Building Satellites
          Google paid several million dollars for the satellite technology to pinpoint ships locations. These things cost three million dollars for the whole program, Michael Jones, Chief Technology Advocate at Google Ventures, said at the annual Joint Warfighting Conference held by the US Naval Institute and the electronics industry group AFCEA. Google has talked to representatives of 50 navies worldwide about their new technology and has discovered it tracks ships better than their own commanders can. I watch them and they cant see themselves, Jone said. It angers me as a citizen that I can do this and the entire DoD cant.

          https://www.satellitetoday.com/innov...ctivities-sea/

          From this stage we get the output of vessels that do have AIS and vessels that were detected only in the imagery but do not transmit AIS. And now its a new ball game, Zeisel said.
          In order to catch illegal fishers red-handed, for example, ISI must be able to predict where the vessel will be in a few hours time to know where to aim the cameras of high-resolution optical satellites. To achieve this, the company turns again to AI algorithms, leveraging multi-agent simulation and deep learning techniques alongside AIS historical behavior. [Were] simulating all the possible positions of the vessel, Zeisel said. At the end, you get a heat map with a statistical probability of where the vessel can be in up to 12 hours.

          If you somehow dont think Russian satellites are not watching US vessels leave the east coast, to continuously monitor where they are heading to next like Syria than I do not know what to tell you. Identifying where US naval ports are located is not a difficult task to do even for regular citizens with an internent connection. US Naval ships happen to be at naval ports, if they leave with a fleet you thinks its going to be a struggle with satellites giving 24/7 coverage. If you somehow believe in the fantasy that they cant be monitored when they leave their ports than you can hide the balloon or use it only if you are spotted by another source. Whatever floats your fishing boat dude.

          S"/N ratio is affected by both and external background noise, "

          by both and external? what are these both things you are talking about in addition to external background noise there buddy?

          "read up AESA - PESA relation"

          Conventional radars that have absolutely nothing to do with ROFAR right?

          "External background noise can't be reduced."

          Have you findly made up your mind about background noise? Remember there is more interference in electronic received RF signals than compared to a photonic radar which I already gave you a source. The less interference or noise the better the signal is heard this does not change the end result of the differences between a radar that uses FICs to one that uses MMICs.

          3. I shouldn't have to, you can find the video if you were looking for it. I don't enjoy spoon feed information to anyone, it is time consuming and tiresome.

          your just not being cooperative which I love to be.

          4. No, should you conceive that I am a sock puppet coming to get you then we can stop talking immediately.

          Have you already used this redundant post before or was it mig-31bm? It seems too familiar.


          1. Try to read and digest your source before write
          However, several intelligence experts noted that, while Googles data possesses enormous commercial appeal, its military and intelligence utility is limited. Most Google images are weeks or months old, at least, making them problematic for that most rarified and demanding use targeting. And as one intelligence source noted: Just because you have the data, doesnt mean you can analyze the data or know how to use it.
          https://breakingdefense.com/2012/05/...cluding-us-na/


          Until a few years ago, AIS was the only way to keep track of goings-on in the middle of the ocean, Zeisel said
          Once ISI has an idea of where to look, the company tasks satellites from commercial providers to image the hotspot and downloads the data to be inspected by a combination of human analysts and automatic AI detection. Tasking commercial satellites can sometimes be a time-intensive process, Zeisel said, in which case ISI reorients its own Eros B satellite to provide the necessary data.

          ISI then cross-references the data with AIS signals from the specific time the image was taken. From this stage we get the output of vessels that do have AIS and vessels that were detected only in the imagery but do not transmit AIS. And now its a new ball game, Zeisel said.

          In order to catch illegal fishers red-handed, for example, ISI must be able to predict where the vessel will be in a few hours time to know where to aim the cameras of high-resolution optical satellites. To achieve this, the company turns again to AI algorithms, leveraging multi-agent simulation and deep learning techniques alongside AIS historical behavior. [Were] simulating all the possible positions of the vessel, Zeisel said. At the end, you get a heat map with a statistical probability of where the vessel can be in up to 12 hours.

          https://www.satellitetoday.com/innovation/2017/08/02/using-artificial-intelligence-track-illegal-activities-sea/


          2. I already gave you two sources, don't ask me the same things again, it is very tiresome. The interference coming from up/down conversion.
          Photonics radar has many things similar to conventional radar.

          3. I was being cooperative, but you are ******* lazy and stubborn. It is tiresome. You don't look for information.

          4. It was me when you irritated me in ALBM thread. You should know that.

          Click image for larger version

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Views:	330
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          I'm done, talking to you is as captivating as watching paint dry
          Last edited by moon_light; 20th August 2019, 10:40.

          Comment

          • panzerfeist1
            Rank 6 Registered User
            • Feb 2018
            • 413

            #45

            1. Try to read and digest your source before write

            I wonder if you are capable of doing such a thing but the point this was brought up as that a company like google can track vessels anywhere. Also time to teach you english again. "but do not transmit AIS. And now its a new ball game, Zeisel said." than there is this "alongside AIS """""""""historical""""""""" behavior." historical references something of the past doesnt it?

            2."The interference coming from up/down conversion.
            Photonics radar has many things similar to conventional radar."

            Yes it comes from the conversion as well............ But do you also agree that photonic radars have less noise because of better transmitter efficiency than conventional radars by using lasers as a source?

            3. I was being cooperative, but you are ******* lazy and stubborn. It is tiresome. You don't look for information.

            I have no problems if people need better sources, especially if my own sources dont tell anything about a missiles flight based off of pictures.

            4. It was me when you irritated me in ALBM thread. You should know that.

            Oh so I was right, but I cant track of everything as to what everyone says.

            I'm done, talking to you is as captivating as watching paint dry

            Ok atleast you have creativity.
            I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

            Comment

            • A&D
              A&D
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Oct 2012
              • 137

              #46
              Originally posted by djcross View Post
              Another factor in the SAM vs airplane issue is the ability of modern SAMs to rapidly relocate..
              How are they rapidly relocating ? IOW, is this because of some recent technological advancement ? I say this because, most SAMs do not carry enough fuel to change their location, frequently in order to engage the target.

              Comment

              • Levsha
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2006
                • 2856

                #47
                Originally posted by A&D View Post

                How are they rapidly relocating ? IOW, is this because of some recent technological advancement ? I say this because, most SAMs do not carry enough fuel to change their location, frequently in order to engage the target.
                I think he is referring to their launchers and not the missiles themselves. Many Air Defence systems are mounted on vehicles these days, especially the shorter-ranged systems.

                Comment

                • A&D
                  A&D
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Oct 2012
                  • 137

                  #48
                  Originally posted by Levsha View Post
                  Many Air Defence systems are mounted on vehicles these days, especially the shorter-ranged systems.
                  OK. But that was always the case, right ? Air Defense systems like BUK, Panstir etc were always mounted on vehicles to facilitate rapid re deployment. Rather SAMs, that are capable of targeting an incoming hostile aircraft at long and short ranges backed up by Anti-Aicraft Artillery (AAA)are probably more effective.

                  Comment

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