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  • J-20
    Rank 4 Registered User
    • Jan 2018
    • 256

    The potential for joint Russian-Chinese collaboration

    WE just witnessed history as Russian and Chinese military aircraft freely flew into South Korean airspace together and challenged them with impunity.

    pretty soon we will see this expand to joint military projects. Already they're developing civilian airliners together. the next step is to go into military stuff since aviation is getting more expensive and complicated.. and most countries are now partnering with others now.. France and Germany, UK and Sweden, and etc..

    How can Russia and China collaborate to meet each other needs? IMHO.


    Russian engine technology is better

    Chinese radars

    and for systems..

    Chinese Y-20 can replace Russian Il-76s and other transports
    Chinese FC-31 to replace Russian MiG-29s
    Russian Ka-50s and Mi-28s for China, they don't have anything in that range
    Chinese Blackhawks for Russian army
  • XB-70
    Rank 4 Registered User
    • May 2018
    • 364

    #2
    There's very little opportunity in the military space at this time. The Russians won't go for a Y-20 because it is just a refaced Il-76 and they will develop a true next gen airlifter when they are ready to move on from that design. Phasing out the Migs with the FC-31 is more realistic - but still not likely. The problem with rapidly phasing in a large number of stealth fighters is you have to have the infrastructure to maintain them - including their coatings. I don't see that happening that fast, so the Su-57 will likely be the only Russian stealth bird for a while. Maybe the Chinese could get some benefit from Russian helicopters, but I think they will see their own as good enough. The one exception is the new heavy lifter that Russia and China are developing together. Similarly, I don't see much use for the Z-20 for Russia.

    The one thing the Chinese will still need from the Russians for a while is engines. The Russians could source drones from the Chinese. But, for the most part, I don't see much sharing beyond joint projects like the CR929 and the new heavy lift helicopter - programs where component and system manufacturers can work together for mutual benefit.

    Comment

    • LMFS
      Rank 4 Registered User
      • Feb 2018
      • 561

      #3
      Originally posted by J-20 View Post
      WE just witnessed history as Russian and Chinese military aircraft freely flew into South Korean airspace together and challenged them with impunity.
      Wait, what? Russia has vehemently denied that. There is a long story of complains between Korea and Russia due to the air identification areas that the former want to impose and the second doesn't recognize, since they are not internationally accepted.

      The planes flew for thousands of km respecting scrupulously the international airspace (not easy in that region of the world due to the many islands and proximity between Japan and Korea) and then decide to brazenly fly over two rocks disputed between Japan and Korea... for what exactly? They claim them too?

      There are several sides in this story, each one with their own version, you cannot declare one side the right one without conclusive evidence

      pretty soon we will see this expand to joint military projects. Already they're developing civilian airliners together. the next step is to go into military stuff since aviation is getting more expensive and complicated.. and most countries are now partnering with others now.. France and Germany, UK and Sweden, and etc..

      How can Russia and China collaborate to meet each other needs? IMHO.
      They are already cooperating in those aspects that make sense for them, but developing critical military hardware together is more complicated and they are both pursuing total independence already in their current HW generation. Russia has little to take from China (maybe electronics and IT), China has each time less to learn from Russia.

      The new agreement will get them cooperating militarily, sharing infrastructure and improving their coordination, but still I have not seen it is about joint military development.

      Chinese Y-20 can replace Russian Il-76s and other transports
      No, Russia is busy developing Ilyushin again. They will not give up on their transport aviation competences, why would they?

      Chinese FC-31 to replace Russian MiG-29s
      They desperately need to give MiG some business. And they don't need FC-31 at all.

      Russian Ka-50s and Mi-28s for China, they don't have anything in that range
      Kamov developed the Z-10 for them

      Chinese Blackhawks for Russian army
      No way, even Afghanistan prefers their Mils

      A STOVL plane would maybe make sense to be developed between China and Russia, since it would be a too expensive project for the units one single country would buy. And performance-wise it would not be so critical as an air superiority fighter for instance.


      Comment

      • J-20
        Rank 4 Registered User
        • Jan 2018
        • 256

        #4
        ^ thanks for the buddy cakes.

        STVOL plane sounds nice and I think China had thought about it at some point... but where would it be used? their existing carriers can handle conventional jets.

        as for other stuff.. well in the old days its nice to try fund all these companies but in reality is Russia is cash strapped. they just cut a bunch of orders for their new tanks and are opting to just use their older ones.
        Ilyushin and Mikey mouse can still exist, just building specialized versions of the FC-31 like HAL does with Flankers.

        Comment

        • Multirole
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2000
          • 903

          #5
          They both need a new long range MPA. The Bears are getting old and China needs something more than Y-8 based platforms.
          pb::

          Comment

          • LMFS
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • Feb 2018
            • 561

            #6
            Originally posted by J-20 View Post
            STVOL plane sounds nice and I think China had thought about it at some point... but where would it be used? their existing carriers can handle conventional jets.
            China informed (I think last year) about their expeditionary forces and their intention to develop STOVL planes. They would be used on board of LHDs of course. Russia had talked about STO(V)L planes for the navy, in general, but not as concretely as China as far as I remember. But they have Yakovlev that probably longs for some interesting project like that and has lots of knowledge about the issue. China would support financially and save lots of time, Russia would cash some knowledge China would nevertheless end up acquiring and get some nice plane for their navy and export in the process. Looks fair for both to me.

            as for other stuff.. well in the old days its nice to try fund all these companies but in reality is Russia is cash strapped. they just cut a bunch of orders for their new tanks and are opting to just use their older ones.
            Ilyushin and Mikey mouse can still exist, just building specialized versions of the FC-31 like HAL does with Flankers.
            They need to consolidate their MIC and end the debt trap in which many companies find themselves, that would be a last and well deserved goodbye to the 90's and all the struggles and pain they created. But other than that, this narrative is getting old and is used disingenuously against Russia. Economy is the art of satisfying infinite needs with limited resources, and in that regard Russia faces the same dilemmas every other country does, from poorest to richest. They simply have opted for not increasing their debt and do just what they have money for. The ones making trillions of debt are not cash-strapped? Why to create liabilities if they have so much money?

            About Ilyushin turning into kit assembler... better don't tell any Russian

            Originally posted by Multirole
            They both need a new long range MPA. The Bears are getting old and China needs something more than Y-8 based platforms.
            PAK-DA would make for a nice patrol aircraft if they manage to make it cheap and economic to operate. In fact it makes more sense for that kind of role that as strategic bomber, if you ask me...

            Comment

            • Vans
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Oct 2015
              • 155

              #7
              Originally posted by LMFS View Post

              China informed (I think last year) about their expeditionary forces and their intention to develop STOVL planes. They would be used on board of LHDs of course. Russia had talked about STO(V)L planes for the navy, in general, but not as concretely as China as far as I remember. But they have Yakovlev that probably longs for some interesting project like that and has lots of knowledge about the issue. China would support financially and save lots of time, Russia would cash some knowledge China would nevertheless end up acquiring and get some nice plane for their navy and export in the process. Looks fair for both to me.
              .
              Yak did a model of this STOL (not sure if its STOVL) stealth jet 2 decades ago. Would its design still be useful today? looks a bit too small to have a bay

              Click image for larger version

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              • panzerfeist1
                Rank 6 Registered User
                • Feb 2018
                • 413

                #8
                "Chinese radars"


                My answer is no on this in regards to the next few to 5 years.. Sure asian countries like Taiwan, South Korea and Japan are considered top ranking in the semi-conductor industry, than western europe and the US tail behind them. But I have run into some interesting news that might push the Russians way passed these countries.

                https://uanews.arizona.edu/press-rel...tonics-project

                "Frank Jaworski, program manager for emerging technology at Raytheon Vision Systems, added: "Raytheon regards the integration of photonic integrated circuits with focal plane arrays as a critical path for the development of future Department of Defense imaging systems vital to the nation's security. We look forward to the University of Arizona's leadership of the consortium and utilizing their expertise in developing this key technology."

                Neil Supola, chief of the infrared focal plane array branch at the Army's Night Vision and Electronic Sensors Directorate and government program manager for AIM Photonics, said: "This program is a great opportunity for the Department of Defense to leverage advances in integrated photonics manufacturing being realized by the Manufacturing USA program together with its state, industrial and academic partners. The scope of industrial participation on this project highlights the relevance photonic integration has within the Department of Defense community, and this project's inherent potential to make a large impact."



                "- In your opinion, what are
                domestic prospects
                radiophoton component base?
                - The prospects are good. Opening the veil of our plans, I note that
                we are going to actively apply
                radio photonic technologies for deep modernization of existing
                Radar and the creation of advanced radars. This will allow to realize
                promising synthesis methods
                radiation, reception and processing of radar signals (including
                ultra wideband) based
                new competitive domestic products: radiophotonic
                super fast analog digital
                converters (ADC), photon
                digital processors, electron-optical signal generators,
                optical delay lines, parallel optical supervisors, optical-electronic systems
                antenna control and calibration.
                Integrated application of photonics
                in the AFAR equipment will provide a scientific and technological breakthrough in the field of
                radar, communications and electronic warfare, will provide
                Consumers have significant advantages over traditional
                hardware.
                Develop radiophotonics in JSC "RTI"
                planned primarily at the base
                production capacity
                Connector Optics LLC and OJSC
                "OKB-Planet". The existing competencies of these enterprises make it possible to organize a complete
                serial process chain
                production of VIL and semiconductor modulators in microchip
                performance.
                As for semiconductor
                modulators in microchip
                performance, then in 2019 the research
                work on this topic in which
                OKB-Planeta OJSC is an industrial partner.
                Within three to five years is possible
                organization of the development, design and production of photonic
                integrated circuits (FIS) both in packageless execution, and in the case.
                The implementation of these plans will allow
                JSC "RTI" take a leading position
                in development and production
                advanced domestic radio systems based on component
                radiophotonic bases."

                The russians so far atleast have a time estimate on their production date for FICs I cant find any sources as of yet other than this 2017 source of Raytheon being interested in manufacturing FICs. I dont know where other countries besides the US and Russia stand on this however both KRET and RTI did admit they are behind on MMIC technology but they seem to believe they would be ahead of everyone when they start integrating to this.
                I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

                Comment

                • djcross
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 5464

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Vans View Post

                  Yak did a model of this STOL (not sure if its STOVL) stealth jet 2 decades ago. Would its design still be useful today? looks a bit too small to have a bay
                  Never put a significant RF scattering source (canard in this instance) in front of a reflector (wing).

                  Comment

                  • Vans
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Oct 2015
                    • 155

                    #10
                    Originally posted by djcross View Post
                    Never put a significant RF scattering source (canard in this instance) in front of a reflector (wing).
                    what about in the case of the J-20 or X-36? or is their canards on a different position

                    Comment

                    • Multirole
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2000
                      • 903

                      #11
                      Originally posted by LMFS View Post
                      PAK-DA would make for a nice patrol aircraft if they manage to make it cheap and economic to operate. In fact it makes more sense for that kind of role that as strategic bomber, if you ask me...
                      Thats a bit overkill dont you think?
                      pb::

                      Comment

                      • J-20
                        Rank 4 Registered User
                        • Jan 2018
                        • 256

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Multirole View Post

                        Thats a bit overkill dont you think?
                        yah yah.

                        since the Americans and the rest of the world are using small airliners for patrol.. like the 707 and 737..

                        makes sense Chirussia also does.


                        Normally I would nominate the COMAC C919 from China.. but that plane is basically entirely Western guts, with a Chinese wrapping. the US and EU could easily blockade it and you wouldn't have a flying plane

                        So instead the MC-21 could make a good base for a future AWACS, tanker, and maritime patrol plane!

                        Click image for larger version

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                        • LMFS
                          Rank 4 Registered User
                          • Feb 2018
                          • 561

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Vans View Post

                          Yak did a model of this STOL (not sure if its STOVL) stealth jet 2 decades ago. Would its design still be useful today? looks a bit too small to have a bay
                          A LHD-carried STOVL plane would need to be small indeed. LO design beyond basic shaping and bays for a couple of AAMs is not necessary, these planes would not tackle conflicts against advanced militaries. They would just expand the capacities of the LHD a bit.

                          Originally posted by Multirole
                          Thats a bit overkill dont you think?
                          Maybe, but what is Tu-142 but a version of strategic bomber Tu-95?

                          It depends on whether you see the PAK-DA as an ultra-expensive Russian version of the B-2 or something different. By what we have read, it will be cheap and subsonic, so probably they just want to use the flying wing scheme for broadband stealth and high fuel carrying capacity without focusing on exotic properties. Its big persistence and discrete signature would be very useful for long range maritime patrol.

                          In terms of strategic bombers, Russia no only has but is set to produce new Tu-160 with huge payload and speed, and avionics closely related if not identical to those slated for the PAK-DA, so both are going to operate in parallel quite likely. PAK-DA would be smaller, cheaper and more practical for theatre bombing, ISR, maritime patrol and other roles where persistence and LO are more relevant than turn-around time, where it cannot compete with the -160.

                          In any case Russia is currently modernizing the Tu-142 too.

                          Comment

                          • paralay
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Aug 2005
                            • 1418

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Vans View Post
                            Yak did a model of this STOL (not sure if its STOVL) stealth jet 2 decades ago. Would its design still be useful today? looks a bit too small to have a bay
                            Little? Pay attention to the size of the cockpit lantern. Maximum takeoff weight probably 25000 kg

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                            • Dr.Snufflebug
                              Boggleboople snufflebug
                              • Aug 2012
                              • 530

                              #15
                              As for the alleged airspace incursion, according to both Russian and Japanese plots it was only the RuAF A-50 that came close to the Liancourt rocks (it didn't fly over them by any stretch of the imagination, but it might have grazed the Koreans' unilaterally declared "airspace" there, i.e. within 12nm of the rocks, as the Japanese plot shows)...


                              The Russian plot (or flight plan, I guess) puts it well outside of that "airspace" though.

                              Japan claims the islets too (just some barren rocks, population ~40 people, all of which reside in a single Korean complex, and are basically only present to cement Korea's claims over the rocks and to guide tourists), and because of this, claims their airspace was violated as well...

                              But, due to this, this blob of some kind of weird doubly "sovereign airspace" in the middle of the sea is far from generally accepted. It is all well within their ADIZ though, and there are no disputes as far as that goes (and you may freely fly there, but you will probably be escorted).

                              Anyway, the joint Sino-Russian flight of Tu-95 and H-6 bombers joined the A-50, flying through the Korean strait and back. They did not violate any airspace however, real or imagined.




                              Last edited by Dr.Snufflebug; 25th July 2019, 16:00.
                              sigpic

                              Comment

                              • Vans
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Oct 2015
                                • 155

                                #16
                                Originally posted by paralay View Post
                                Little? Pay attention to the size of the cockpit lantern. Maximum takeoff weight probably 25000 kg
                                your reply answered nothing

                                re read it again

                                looks a bit too small to have a bay
                                your fan art shows no bay location. Likely because the airframe is too thin to accomodate one.

                                Comment

                                • paralay
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Aug 2005
                                  • 1418

                                  #17
                                  it can be argued with confidence, the internal volumes allow you to place at least four air - to-air missiles

                                  Comment

                                  • Vans
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Oct 2015
                                    • 155

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by paralay View Post
                                    it can be argued with confidence, the internal volumes allow you to place at least four air - to-air missiles
                                    where exactly? even in your own drawing. much of the fueselage is taken up by the engine, and air intakes and air ducts.

                                    Comment

                                    • stealthflanker
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Sep 2015
                                      • 1026

                                      #19
                                      Is there any potential for Chinese-Russian revival of R-79V-300 ?

                                      Comment

                                      • paralay
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Aug 2005
                                        • 1418

                                        #20
                                        Engine R179V-300 belongs to the generation 4+, at the moment it is outdated. In this class the engine "izd.30"

                                        Originally posted by Vans View Post
                                        where exactly? even in your own drawing. much of the fueselage is taken up by the engine, and air intakes and air ducts.
                                        ​​​​​​​Examples of similar arrangements
                                        http://paralay.world/lfsyak/super_yak.jpg
                                        http://paralay.world/lfsyak/41202.jpg
                                        Attached Files
                                        Last edited by paralay; 26th July 2019, 15:37.

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