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  • J-20
    Rank 4 Registered User
    • Jan 2018
    • 188

    Japanese F-3 stealth programme

    After bringing you pics of the sexy German-French FCAS, the Kebaby TFX, and the hammerhead of a Tempest stealth programmes

    here is the Japancheese F-3. Its important since last month their government formally approved of the budget.
    They are going ahead with the 4th model which was numbered 22DMU to 26DMU.

    26DMU and 24 were the only ones to go as far as wind model stage.

    basically looks like an F-22 with a larger funky wing and circumcised vertical tails

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    evolution of the design, tis is the last 3

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  • XB-70
    Rank 4 Registered User
    • May 2018
    • 316

    #2
    They don't conceal the engine nozzles or exhaust plume anywhere near as much as our stealth designs do. Rear aspect stealth will be heavily dependent on how well they can stealth up their engine. But they do have plenty of time to work on it considering the service dates that they are forecasting.

    Speaking of XF9, which do you think we will see flying in the air first - it or Ws-15?

    Comment

    • J-20
      Rank 4 Registered User
      • Jan 2018
      • 188

      #3
      Originally posted by XB-70 View Post
      They don't conceal the engine nozzles or exhaust plume anywhere near as much as our stealth designs do. Rear aspect stealth will be heavily dependent on how well they can stealth up their engine. But they do have plenty of time to work on it considering the service dates that they are forecasting.

      Speaking of XF9, which do you think we will see flying in the air first - it or Ws-15?
      WS-15.. depends how much the Russians will give info on the AL-41 or how fast they reverse engineer

      XF9 is already under testing it seems
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      • Blitzo
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2011
        • 1329

        #4
        Originally posted by XB-70 View Post
        Speaking of XF9, which do you think we will see flying in the air first - it or Ws-15?
        One of the more recent rumours in the last few months is that WS-15 has been installed in an aircraft for flight tests (i.e.: not the Il-76 test platform), assumed to be a Flanker. I expect that when it does fly it'll take quite a while until we see photos of it, but compared to XF9 it'll depend on how it gets backdated.

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        • QuantumFX
          What?
          • Dec 2008
          • 1827

          #5
          Originally posted by J-20 View Post
          ***
          XF9 is already under testing it seems
          [*ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"1.jpg","data-attachmentid":3866922}[/ATTACH]
          XF9-1 dry thrust is quite impressive. It is actually "Greater Than" 11,000 kgf (That is 108+ kN). IIRC, that is more than the F119 and second only to the F135 . - http://dec.2chan.net/61/src/1531600023587.jpg
          That is a major jump by Japan.

          Originally posted by J-20 View Post

          WS-15.. depends how much the Russians will give info on the AL-41 or how fast they reverse engineer ***
          WS-15 and the AL-41F1S are completely seperate. They can't plug and play parts from one to the other. Could the WS-15 fail as a program? Possible. That we will have to wait and see. There is very little info to make any judgement other that it is a brand new core seperate from any AL-31/41 series engine. Even the WS-10 has a different core from the AL-31 series. If the AL-41F1S is reverse engineered it will have a different designation and even then it would not reach the required thrust goals. Plus I don't see any point reverse engineering the AL-41F1S (Saturn) when China and Chengdu have a very close connection to the MMPP Salut.

          There was a recent rumor that the a WS-15 was installed on to a test aircraft. Likely a J-11 since I think the rumor stated the test aircraft was NOT a J-20.

          WS-10 was also test like that on a J-11 with one AL-31F and one WS-10. I think testing started in 2002. WS-10 succefully entered service at the end of 2009. So it will likley be some time until the WS-15 would enter service.



          Comment

          • QuantumFX
            What?
            • Dec 2008
            • 1827

            #6
            Lot of info in this thread at Secret Projects Forum including the XF9-1 - https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thr...-i3-f-3.11566/

            25DMU and 26DMU
            Larger


            23DMU and 24DMU
            Larger

            Comment

            • J-20
              Rank 4 Registered User
              • Jan 2018
              • 188

              #7
              makes sense Chinaz will install it on a Flanker clone. much more safer and controlled. the J-20, me, is still under testing

              Comment

              • J-20
                Rank 4 Registered User
                • Jan 2018
                • 188

                #8
                Originally posted by QuantumFX View Post
                Lot of info in this thread at Secret Projects Forum including the XF9-1 - https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thr...-i3-f-3.11566/

                25DMU and 26DMU
                Larger
                26 is really boring.

                looks like they wanted to be more conservative and went full Lockmart in the wing and designs.

                24DMU is the sexy

                Comment

                • XB-70
                  Rank 4 Registered User
                  • May 2018
                  • 316

                  #9
                  J-20 - BOTH the Ws-15 and XF9 are in bench testing at the very least. Rumors and such suggest the Ws-15 has been in such testing since at least 2015 and the Japanese, I think, started their testing last year. The Chinese engine has been undergoing testing on the bench longer, but the Japanese industry is more integrated with the major manufacturers and so can probably go through testing in a shorter amount of time. Thus the question I asked.

                  QuantumFX - If they are flying it in secret it says a lot...they still don't fully trust it yet.

                  Comment

                  • QuantumFX
                    What?
                    • Dec 2008
                    • 1827

                    #10
                    Originally posted by XB-70 View Post
                    [USER="77107"]***
                    QuantumFX - If they are flying it in secret it says a lot...they still don't fully trust it yet.
                    Yeah, I think I see your point, regarding Chengdu not fully trusting it. If they were fully comfortable with it, they would probably have installed it on one of the prototype J-20s (or even the early demonstrators #2001, #2002).

                    They did test the WS-10 on a J-11A (WS-10 + AL-31) before they moved to the J-11B. It took nearly 8-years since the 1st test for the WS-10 to successfully enter service.

                    Comment

                    • Blitzo
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2011
                      • 1329

                      #11
                      Originally posted by XB-70 View Post
                      [USER="77107"]
                      QuantumFX - If they are flying it in secret it says a lot...they still don't fully trust it yet.
                      That's not really an exception though; I can't think of any new Chinese engine that was not test flown in relative secrecy. There is also a well established pattern that more important military projects tend to be more restricted in terms of the pictures and information released to the public. Given the importance of something like WS-15, it is rather high in that regard.

                      One of the posts on SDF earlier this year translating some recent rumours of Chinese engines mentioned one goal was to attain design certification for WS-15 within 5 years, though I forget the relationship between that and being ready for mass service.



                      And as a cautionary note as always for people unaware, ignore every SCMP article there is about WS-15, their authors get it ridiculously wrong.

                      Comment

                      • XB-70
                        Rank 4 Registered User
                        • May 2018
                        • 316

                        #12
                        That's not really an exception though; I can't think of any new Chinese engine that was not test flown in relative secrecy. There is also a well established pattern that more important military projects tend to be more restricted in terms of the pictures and information released to the public.
                        Blitzo - True. The Chinese are far more secretive than anyone else. But they did allow their stealth fighter prototypes to be filmed and photographed while in their flight test phase. I don't see any reason why they would then hold back on the engine for that stealth fighter.

                        If China ever wants to be more than a relatively minor player on the world's aerospace and arms markets then they are going to have to embrace some openness.

                        Comment

                        • Blitzo
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2011
                          • 1329

                          #13
                          Originally posted by XB-70 View Post

                          Blitzo - True. The Chinese are far more secretive than anyone else. But they did allow their stealth fighter prototypes to be filmed and photographed while in their flight test phase. I don't see any reason why they would then hold back on the engine for that stealth fighter.

                          If China ever wants to be more than a relatively minor player on the world's aerospace and arms markets then they are going to have to embrace some openness.

                          China did certainly allow stealth fighter prototypes to be filmed and photographed, but over the last couple of years when production of J-20 has commenced we've gotten very few pictures of the factory and the new aircraft produced there.
                          Point being that there is different degrees of secrecy to different projects and even different phases of the same project may have different levels of opsec.


                          My point is that the lack of pictures of WS-15 (tbh we don't even really know what it looks like apart from that poor res image of its core) including on the supposed test aircraft should not really be taken as an indication of lack of confidence in the engine itself.

                          I do absolutely believe however that they are being cautious with WS-15's development to try and get things right the first time to avoid the delays faced by WS-10 -- and that can be evidenced by things such as testing the engine on a non J-20 aircraft first -- but the lack of images is a very bad premise to make that kind of argument for.

                          Comment

                          • XB-70
                            Rank 4 Registered User
                            • May 2018
                            • 316

                            #14
                            Blitzo - We don't know if they have flown it yet. We really don't know anything about it! We don't know if the images shown reflect the final configuration of the engine (they may not). We don't know whether the installation of the engine will require modifications to the J-20. We don't know whether the program experienced a catastrophic incident either (the engine blew up story). We know more about Japan's engine than China's.

                            My point is that the lack of pictures of WS-15 (tbh we don't even really know what it looks like apart from that poor res image of its core) including on the supposed test aircraft should not really be taken as an indication of lack of confidence in the engine itself.
                            The lack of pictures by themselves don't, yes. Be it is certain that they are struggling in fielding relatively modern engine designs. We know that from their development path with the CJ-1000. The lack of Y-20s flying with the Ws-20 point in that direction too. And that IS almost certainly the reason for the tight secrecy in the project. China doesn't like to look weak. And turbofan engine design and construction is one area where they still are.

                            Comment

                            • Blitzo
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2011
                              • 1329

                              #15
                              Originally posted by XB-70 View Post
                              Blitzo - We don't know if they have flown it yet. We really don't know anything about it! We don't know if the images shown reflect the final configuration of the engine (they may not). We don't know whether the installation of the engine will require modifications to the J-20. We don't know whether the program experienced a catastrophic incident either (the engine blew up story). We know more about Japan's engine than China's.
                              I didn't suggest that WS-15 has flown yet -- in fact I doubt it has yet at present. But I don't see how any of what is written here relates to my previous comment.



                              The lack of pictures by themselves don't, yes. Be it is certain that they are struggling in fielding relatively modern engine designs. We know that from their development path with the CJ-1000. The lack of Y-20s flying with the Ws-20 point in that direction too. And that IS almost certainly the reason for the tight secrecy in the project. China doesn't like to look weak. And turbofan engine design and construction is one area where they still are.
                              I certainly agree that turbofans is an area where they are behind, and they obviously recognize it.

                              However, the logic that they are hiding WS-15 because they lack confidence in it because turbofans are an area where they are behind doesn't really make sense, because if that was the case then we wouldn't have more information and pictures about other Chinese engine programmes in the present or in the past when they were at similar or earlier stages of development compared to WS-15 (this includes WS-10 and WS-20 when they were at earlier stages of development, not to mention the more recent WS-19, all of which we had more knowledge and/or pictures about than WS-15 when they were at similar stages of development).

                              Instead, if we look at how much information or pictures we receive about various engine projects, WS-15 is actually the exception in regards to how little we know about it.
                              Considering all of the above, then what might explain the high secrecy surrounding WS-15? My answer is that I believe it is the most important project currently being worked on at AECC and there are levels of opsec surrounding it commensurate with its status.

                              Comment

                              • XB-70
                                Rank 4 Registered User
                                • May 2018
                                • 316

                                #16
                                However, the logic that they are hiding WS-15 because they lack confidence in it because turbofans are an area where they are behind doesn't really make sense...

                                Sure it does. The CJ-1000 shows as much. It has a VERY slow development path. Unlike the established players, China doesn't have decades of experience in single crystal superalloys and all of the bonded coats that goes with them. So they have to work cautiously. And, since the Ws-15 is a military project, they keep it tightly under wraps.

                                ...because if that was the case then we wouldn't have more information and pictures about other Chinese engine programmes in the present or in the past when they were at similar or earlier stages of development compared to WS-15
                                I think you are overplaying some very slight differences. Almost nothing was known about other Chinese engine projects (Ws-10, Ws-20, etc.) prior to flight testing. Pictures were sparse and usually of questionable validity and few if any reliable performance targets or program milestones were given. Even well after flight testing starts they are still kept under a hefty veil of secrecy - such as Ws-20 is still to this day.

                                Instead, if we look at how much information or pictures we receive about various engine projects, WS-15 is actually the exception in regards to how little we know about it.
                                CJ-1000 is the exception - it has to be since it is intended for widespread civilian use. Ws-15 fits in tightly with the rule. I don't think we can agree much here.

                                Comment

                                • Blitzo
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2011
                                  • 1329

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by XB-70 View Post
                                  Sure it does. The CJ-1000 shows as much. It has a VERY slow development path. Unlike the established players, China doesn't have decades of experience in single crystal superalloys and all of the bonded coats that goes with them. So they have to work cautiously. And, since the Ws-15 is a military project, they keep it tightly under wraps.
                                  Yet we've seen pictures of CJ-1000 and received updates on its development relatively openly compared to other Chinese military engine programmes and certainly compared to WS-15



                                  I think you are overplaying some very slight differences. Almost nothing was known about other Chinese engine projects (Ws-10, Ws-20, etc.) prior to flight testing. Pictures were sparse and usually of questionable validity and few if any reliable performance targets or program milestones were given. Even well after flight testing starts they are still kept under a hefty veil of secrecy - such as Ws-20 is still to this day.


                                  In terms of PLA watching, I think those are some rather significant differences.
                                  The fact that we had a picture of WS-19 in testing a few months ago considering how much earlier it is in its development cycle is one of the more blatant examples of it.


                                  Let's put this another way:
                                  Chinese turbofan and engine programmes are generally more closely guarded than equivalent foreign programmes -- with Chinese civilian engines being more open than military engines.
                                  However, within military engine developments, WS-15 holds the title of being the most closely guarded by far for the stage of development it is said to be at, when compared to other military engines currently also being developed or past military engines that have been developed.

                                  Comment

                                  • J-20
                                    Rank 4 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2018
                                    • 188

                                    #18
                                    I found this from a Japanese site. its from a this month's aviation magazine.

                                    I had no idea they already began building the F-3 and got that far in engine development.

                                    But then again.. me no can read Chinapanese

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                                    • XB-70
                                      Rank 4 Registered User
                                      • May 2018
                                      • 316

                                      #19
                                      I didn't think they were building the aircraft yet either. Who'd they partner with then?

                                      But, yeah, their engine tests have been going smoothly - and fast. They just got to flight test it now, and they will probably be doing that fairly soon.

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