Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Draken vs Mirage 3. The sexiest of the 2nd gen fighters

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • J-20
    Rank 4 Registered User
    • Jan 2018
    • 188

    Draken vs Mirage 3. The sexiest of the 2nd gen fighters

    Lets go retro and talk about the Dragon and the Migare 3. perhaps the two sexiest 2nd gen planes to ever grace teh skies.

    there were some competitions where they went head to head.. (I think Austria or Switzerland).. did we get any outcomes on their performance?
  • Ozair
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Oct 2015
    • 821

    #2
    RAAF made the choice between Mirage 3 and Draken amongst a few others. I'm not aware of any comparative analysis done at the time but the Mirage won the selection.

    In the end mirage was probably the wrong choice, it simply wasn't capable of operating in Australian conditions and to the roles the RAAF required.

    Draken for air intercept and A-4 for ground attack would have been the better choice.

    Comment

    • Levsha
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2006
      • 2837

      #3
      Originally posted by Ozair View Post
      RAAF made the choice between Mirage 3 and Draken amongst a few others. I'm not aware of any comparative analysis done at the time but the Mirage won the selection.

      In the end mirage was probably the wrong choice, it simply wasn't capable of operating in Australian conditions and to the roles the RAAF required.

      Draken for air intercept and A-4 for ground attack would have been the better choice.
      I always thought the Mirage was a great success in the RAAF - served for almost a quarter of a century. What was wrong with the Mirage, why was it so inferior to the Draken? I can't see any outstanding problems?

      Comment

      • Ozair
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Oct 2015
        • 821

        #4
        Originally posted by Levsha View Post

        I always thought the Mirage was a great success in the RAAF - served for almost a quarter of a century. What was wrong with the Mirage, why was it so inferior to the Draken? I can't see any outstanding problems?
        Too many crashes for a start. Draken had a much better safety record and a longer range which would have better suited the australian mission.

        Both were still better choices than F-104.

        Comment

        • eagle
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2000
          • 2362

          #5
          Yes the F-104. Most definitely the sexiest of the era. How could Hamburger forget about the Starfighter?

          Click image for larger version

Name:	USAF-F-104A-LO--serial-number-56-0770.jpg
Views:	847
Size:	185.3 KB
ID:	3866552

          For my air force I would buy the Mirage III though. The most versatile. And pretty good combat record.
          How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
          Yngwie Malmsteen

          Comment

          • Levsha
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2006
            • 2837

            #6
            Originally posted by Ozair View Post

            Too many crashes for a start. Draken had a much better safety record and a longer range which would have better suited the australian mission.
            Some Mirage operators had a good safety record with the aircraft, some didn't. Same goes with the F-104. If the SAAB has a substantially better range than the Mirage, well then it might have been a better choice for the RAAF alright - but there are other factors to take into consideration. Perhaps Sweden liked to impose restrictions on how their arms exports were to be used?

            What I also find ironic was the fact that the RAAF were not so happy with the Mirage's Atar powerplant and seriously had plans to swap it with the RR Avon in production. The Draken,of course, already came with the Avon fitted.

            Both were still better choices than F-104.
            I love the Starfighter...

            Comment

            • J-20
              Rank 4 Registered User
              • Jan 2018
              • 188

              #7
              Originally posted by eagle View Post
              Yes the F-104. Most definitely the sexiest of the era. How could Hamburger forget about the Starfighter?

              Click image for larger version

Name:	USAF-F-104A-LO--serial-number-56-0770.jpg
Views:	847
Size:	185.3 KB
ID:	3866552

              For my air force I would buy the Mirage III though. The most versatile. And pretty good combat record.
              ah, i should have said European fighters.

              when I think of the F-104, i feel it should be compared to the MiG-21


              Comment

              • Yama
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Feb 2012
                • 633

                #8
                Originally posted by Ozair View Post

                Too many crashes for a start. Draken had a much better safety record and a longer range which would have better suited the australian mission.

                Both were still better choices than F-104.
                Draken had terrible safety record in the first decade of its operation. Only when they began superstall training in the seventies it became acceptable.

                Comment

                • Ozair
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Oct 2015
                  • 821

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Yama View Post

                  Draken had terrible safety record in the first decade of its operation. Only when they began superstall training in the seventies it became acceptable.
                  I can't find any info on the Draken safety record. Do you have a link to the issues?

                  The other advantage the Draken had was a big radar ideal for the intercept mission the RAAF envisioned in the early 60s.

                  Comment

                  • Ozair
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Oct 2015
                    • 821

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Levsha View Post

                    Some Mirage operators had a good safety record with the aircraft, some didn't. Same goes with the F-104. If the SAAB has a substantially better range than the Mirage, well then it might have been a better choice for the RAAF alright - but there are other factors to take into consideration. Perhaps Sweden liked to impose restrictions on how their arms exports were to be used?

                    What I also find ironic was the fact that the RAAF were not so happy with the Mirage's Atar powerplant and seriously had plans to swap it with the RR Avon in production. The Draken,of course, already came with the Avon fitted.
                    I doubt Sweden would have restricted RAAF use of the Draken especially given the US content in the aircraft.

                    Yes the Atar was a major issue for RAAF mirage III but they also weren't going to put the money forward to make that happen, hence they created some of these issues for themselves.


                    Originally posted by Levsha View Post
                    Ilove the Starfighter...
                    The RAAF determined that the Starfighter, probably rightly, was too complex and costly for them to operate.

                    Nothing against the looks of the aircraft but for the RAAF use case it clearly wasn't the right choice.

                    Comment

                    • Yama
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Feb 2012
                      • 633

                      #11
                      sv.wikipedia.org:
                      Under de 38 r som flygplanet var i tjnst i Svenska flygvapnet var den totala flygtiden 766 720 timmar med 119 flygplan som totalhavererade detta ger en haverifrekvens p 15,5 flygplan p 100 000 flygtimmar. Motsvarande haverifrekvens i Danmark var 6,2 och i Finland 1,4.

                      So accident rate in Swedish service was similar to Century Series fighters in USAF service, about same as F-100, ie. pretty awful. After superstall tendency became better know and training program began with specially modified 2-seater, numbers got better by LOT, which is reflected by its excellent safety record in Finnish service (2 airframe writeoffs out of 48).

                      Comment

                      • halloweene
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jan 2012
                        • 4343

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Levsha View Post

                        Some Mirage operators had a good safety record with the aircraft, some didn't. Same goes with the F-104. If the SAAB has a substantially better range than the Mirage, well then it might have been a better choice for the RAAF alright - but there are other factors to take into consideration. Perhaps Sweden liked to impose restrictions on how their arms exports were to be used?

                        What I also find ironic was the fact that the RAAF were not so happy with the Mirage's Atar powerplant and seriously had plans to swap it with the RR Avon in production. The Draken,of course, already came with the Avon fitted.



                        I love the Starfighter...
                        They even made a prototype with the Avon.. Results weren't great due to differences in size, balance etc.

                        Comment

                        • rallye
                          Rank 3 Registered User
                          • Jul 2013
                          • 1

                          #13
                          There is an excellent book that answers your questions : "Mirage III O" by Mason and Mottram , edited by MMMS, 312 pages.
                          The Draken was out of the competion very early before selection of 5 finalists. The Avon Mirage showed better performances but the change was too costly for Australia.

                          Comment

                          • Kovy
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Apr 2004
                            • 1465

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Ozair View Post

                            Too many crashes for a start. Draken had a much better safety record and a longer range which would have better suited the australian mission.

                            Both were still better choices than F-104.
                            You should consider the environment in which each aircraft was used...
                            Termperate/nordic european climate for the Draken vs harsh desertic conditions for the Mirage... No machine like sand.

                            Also to be considered is the fact that the Mirage was operated in war time, when safety is not first priority anymore.

                            The Rafale international forum :
                            http://rafale.freeforums.org/

                            Rafale news blog :
                            http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

                            Comment

                            • J-20
                              Rank 4 Registered User
                              • Jan 2018
                              • 188

                              #15
                              here you go, Draken as a kangaroo

                              Click image for larger version

Name:	draken03-jpg.250798.jpg
Views:	659
Size:	50.0 KB
ID:	3866693

                              or a Mirage IIII as a Fin

                              wow thats sexy

                              Click image for larger version

Name:	1.jpg
Views:	661
Size:	195.1 KB
ID:	3866694


                              but really Viggen is nicer

                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                              • Ozair
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Oct 2015
                                • 821

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Kovy View Post

                                You should consider the environment in which each aircraft was used...
                                Termperate/nordic european climate for the Draken vs harsh desertic conditions for the Mirage... No machine like sand.

                                Also to be considered is the fact that the Mirage was operated in war time, when safety is not first priority anymore.
                                Kovy the RAAF, which I am referring to, did not operate in sandy conditions nor in warlike operations with the Mirage. The aircraft operated from Williamtown and Butterworth for the vast majority of its life and only being operated in Darwin, a marginally sandy environment, for the last few years. Of the 116 aircraft Australia acquired they lost 43 to crashes with 14 aircrew killed...

                                Comment

                                • Yama
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Feb 2012
                                  • 633

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by J-20 View Post
                                  or a Mirage IIII as a Fin

                                  wow thats sexy
                                  Yeah, real nice - though that's Mirage 2000.

                                  But why does it have a Draken hull number? Mirage would be MR-202 or something.

                                  FAF wanted Mirage in early '60s, but it was much too expensive. So MiG-21 was acquired instead. FAF considered Mirages many times, but always they were found bit too pricey.

                                  Comment

                                  • Vans
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Oct 2015
                                    • 135

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Yama View Post

                                    Yeah, real nice - though that's Mirage 2000.

                                    But why does it have a Draken hull number? Mirage would be MR-202 or something.

                                    FAF wanted Mirage in early '60s, but it was much too expensive. So MiG-21 was acquired instead. FAF considered Mirages many times, but always they were found bit too pricey.
                                    French equipment is always expensive, but at least you're getting something good for the time.

                                    you're finnish arent you? what were Finlands experiences about MiG-21 and Draken sinc they had both?
                                    from you rstatement i assume Swedish products were cheaper than French

                                    Comment

                                    • J-20
                                      Rank 4 Registered User
                                      • Jan 2018
                                      • 188

                                      #19
                                      woops that was a mirage 2000!

                                      Comment

                                      • APRichelieu
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Mar 2016
                                        • 149

                                        #20
                                        Draken had a datalink, which was quite unique at the time.

                                        Comment

                                        Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                        Collapse

                                         

                                        Working...
                                        X