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Fighter Faceoff: F-15X vs J-16 - which one is the better air superiority fighter

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  • SpudmanWP
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2009
    • 5237

    #21
    Small fins means reduced drag which means reduced leverage which means reduced turn authority.

    There is no getting around physics.

    EA-18Gs can move up safely thanks to their massive EW capability which could also mask other AEW & AWACS long enough for VLO assets to take out your AWACS. Your J-16s are now blind and will have to find targets for themselves negating the benefit of the LRAAM.

    There is a reason why military planners do system vs system rather than simplistic platform vs platform (with or w/o selected assets) as the latter is not a realistic view of combat.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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    • garryA
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Dec 2015
      • 1117

      #22
      Originally posted by SpudmanWP View Post
      Small fins means reduced drag which means reduced leverage which means reduced turn authority.
      There is no getting around physics.
      All else equal, smaller fin reduced leverage but as you can see, big fin isn't an absolute requirement to have a decent end game agility against fighters, a notable example is ASRAAM, Meteor
      Furthermore, because lift is a function of both speed and wing area, thus, the negative drawback of smaller fins can be mitigated by flying faster

      Originally posted by SpudmanWP View Post
      EA-18Gs can move up safely thanks to their massive EW capability which could also mask other AEW & AWACS long enough for VLO assets to take out your AWACS. Your J-16s are now blind and will have to find targets for themselves negating the benefit of the LRAAM.
      There is a reason why military planners do system vs system rather than simplistic platform vs platform (with or w/o selected assets) as the latter is not a realistic view of combat.
      EA-18G is a stand off suppress jamming asset, meaning, it radiates noise so that enemy can't see your friends. The main defense for these assets is their standoff range aka thanks to their powerful jammer, they can jam from beyond the engagement range of SAM, and AAM. That will be much harder to achieve if your adversary has PL-XX than if they have AIM-120D.
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      Furthermore, OP asking about J-16 vs F-15
      if you put F-15X in the same situation, it will do even worse than J-16
      Last edited by garryA; 15th May 2019, 01:54.

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      • djcross
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2000
        • 5404

        #23
        Nobody fights alone.

        Success of a weapon system depends on the abilities of the ecosystem in which it operates. What are the capabilities of supporting assets (e.g. mission planning, number and disposition of flight members, communications networks/satellites/ISR/AWACS (all providing situational awareness), tankers, training/experience, and logistics.

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        • SpudmanWP
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2009
          • 5237

          #24
          Originally posted by garryA View Post
          Furthermore, OP asking about J-16 vs F-15
          if you put F-15X in the same situation, it will do even worse than J-16
          The OP asked a 1v1 setup and you tried to set the narrative with "certain" supporting assets.

          I was just trying to show what is more realistic.

          btw, an EA-18G with an NGJ would absolutely be able to blind an AWACS to allow an F-15EX or any 4th gen asset in close enough to take it out.
          "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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          • moon_light
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • May 2012
            • 999

            #25
            Originally posted by halloweene View Post
            Please define the mission scenario first. THEN people can talk.
            Your country is in a war with Wakania (fictional country), they are next to your border
            Their airforce consists of 150 Rafale, 150 Mig-31, 150 F-21, 200 LCA and 20 A-50
            On the ground, Wakania has 3 SBX-1 spread out evenly
            Your air force has 700 fighters of your choice, either J-16 or F-15X
            Your mission: gaining air supremacy in 50 days

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            • panzerfeist1
              Rank 4 Registered User
              • Feb 2018
              • 303

              #26
              @moonlight thanks for the map, I might copy this from you for a fun case scenario involving SAM sites, aircrafts of choice, weapons of choice, mountains or no mountains, etc if I was to create a thread on key forum pub. But I have question involving the 3 SBX are they placed near the border or in the center of Wakania? Are they placed in mountainous regions to raise the radar horizon or not since SEAD tactics would get involved to take those radars out? Those are some powerful ass radars. Also do you agree with the distance on the lower right that 1 inch covers 25,000kms?
              Last edited by panzerfeist1; 15th May 2019, 04:46.
              I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

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              • haavarla
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Dec 2008
                • 6631

                #27
                Originally posted by FBW View Post

                Respecting IP is not a strong suit of the PRC. China has claimed that J-16 is a new aircraft that bears only superficial likeness (paraphrase) to flankers.
                When and where have you seen China Promoting any J-11, J-15 or J-16 for export and sale?

                China can never export any Su-27 deriative. That is under the Billion$ deal they made with Russia Sukhoi/Rusoboro many years ago.
                Thanks

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                • djcross
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 5404

                  #28
                  If the distance scale in the lower right corner of your map is correct, then the distance between the eastern-most and western-most points in Wakania is about 150,000 km. That is 3+ times the circumference of planet Earth!

                  Neither F-15Xs nor J-16s have sufficient range to be effective.

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                  • Guest's Avatar
                    Guest

                    #29
                    Debate is really moot. As the question is really how either compare to future 5th Generation Fighters like the F-22, F-35, J-20, or J-31.

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                    • haavarla
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 6631

                      #30
                      Originally posted by Scooter View Post
                      Debate is really moot. As the question is really how either compare to future 5th Generation Fighters like the F-22, F-35, J-20, or J-31.
                      Counting how many different F-15's variant still operating, many of them quite new as well, no its a solid question.
                      J-16, Super MKI, Su-35, pick one. They are soon in aboundance.
                      Last edited by haavarla; 15th May 2019, 17:20.
                      Thanks

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                      • ActionJackson
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Oct 2010
                        • 263

                        #31
                        Given the F-15X's role will be to act as a shooter for forward located F-35s it's not an apples to apples comparison.

                        What'll define the F-15's effectiveness will be speed, endurance and carrying a large load of extended range amraams.

                        Comment

                        • moon_light
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • May 2012
                          • 999

                          #32
                          Originally posted by ActionJackson View Post
                          Given the F-15X's role will be to act as a shooter for forward located F-35s it's not an apples to apples comparison.

                          What'll define the F-15's effectiveness will be speed, endurance and carrying a large load of extended range amraams.
                          J-16 can act as shooter for forward J-20 as well, and it will be more effective than F-15X because PL-21 can fly further than AIM-120D and with better seeker

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                          • SpudmanWP
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 5237

                            #33
                            Does the J-20 have a directional datalink so that it can communicate wither other assets without giving its own position away?
                            "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

                            Comment

                            • Sintra
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Aug 2007
                              • 3832

                              #34
                              Originally posted by moon_light View Post

                              J-16 can act as shooter for forward J-20 as well, and it will be more effective than F-15X because PL-21 can fly further than AIM-120D and with better seeker
                              Because we are entirely sure that whatever the missile that was under that particular J-16 was an AAM, called PL21, is operational, or will be before whatever comes out of Darpa's T3 program gets into active Sqns?
                              Do we actually have anything on this supposed "PL21" besides a few bad photos? Do we even know if its an AAM?
                              Hell, do we have anything on the J-16 sensors? And EPPAWS? Anything of the equivalent Chinese hardware? And how does the AN/APG-82 compares to whatever Chinese radar is on the Flanker nose? Catalonia anyone?

                              Do we have anything on the public domain about the J-16 besides " its an evolved Chinese Flanker"?
                              No?
                              We can stop this topic right here.
                              sigpic

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                              • mig-31bm
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Oct 2013
                                • 2095

                                #35

                                Missile simulation: AIM-120D (made by sprstdlyscottsmn)
                                Shooter:
                                - Speed : Mach 1.2,
                                - Altitude : from 30,000-50,000ft in 5,000ft increments and one extra 60,000ft shot from 1.6M to simulate F-22 missiles launch.
                                Target:
                                - Speed : Mach 2.5
                                - Altitude: 75,000 ft
                                All shots had a launch range of 150 nm. The AMRAAM is using a single 8s pulse at constant thrust and a 20 degree loft. Other note on AMRAAM guidance. For long range shots, the missile pitches to 20 degrees for loft while the motor is burning. Once the motor is no longer burning the missile goes ballistic (zero pitch input) to minimize drag. It stays ballistic until either the mid-course updates tell it that it is pointed at the expected impact position or the target enters the seeker range and FOV.

                                The sim also gives a Pk of a shot based on available maneuverability (dynamic pressure) and closure rates. Starting with the 30k shot, the Pk was 7%, 14%, 24%, 36%, 48%, and 78% for the F-22 shot
                                Click image for larger version

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                                • panzerfeist1
                                  Rank 4 Registered User
                                  • Feb 2018
                                  • 303

                                  #36
                                  https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...budget-442816/
                                  The LREW also emerges as Chinese and Russian militaries reportedly are pursuing new air intercept missiles with ranges significantly longer than the AIM-120D. The range of the AIM-120D is classified, but is thought to extend to about 100mi (160km).

                                  I get that climbing and descending effect range but how did you get 150 nautical miles? If some of the ranges are past 100 nautical miles than why cant I find sources that say 185kms?
                                  Last edited by panzerfeist1; 17th May 2019, 17:22.
                                  I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

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