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Su-15TM vs F-104G

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  • nastle
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Feb 2005
    • 547

    Su-15TM vs F-104G

    Good morning friends

    Just wanted to start a discussion to compare these 2 cold warriors

    by late 70s -1982 both stood at the peak of their deployment

    approx 500 each

    one was a pure interceptor , other was mainly for strike and had only IR weapons , the su-15TM got R-60 from 1979 onwards

    both are not renowned for their agility not sure which one is worse

    su-15 might not have faced f-104 in central europe but around the southern flank and in far east there is a strong possibility of two running into each other incase of a conventional war for 2 reasons

    1-There were few mig-23 units there
    2- many of these nations like turkey can use the f-104G in strike role

    TM version of flagon was somewhat improved over others , and maybe used gunpods too ?

    so what is the likely outcome of encounters between these 2 types ?
  • paralay
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Aug 2005
    • 1411

    #2
    F-104 in competition with the MiG-21
    F-106 compare with su-9 / su-11
    F-101 - Yak-28P and Tu-128
    Su-15 it makes sense to compare with the F-4
    I Think it would be fair
    Attached Files

    Comment

    • Levsha
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2006
      • 2851

      #3
      Originally posted by paralay View Post
      F-104 in competition with the MiG-21
      F-106 compare with su-9 / su-11
      F-101 - Yak-28P and Tu-128
      Su-15 it makes sense to compare with the F-4
      I Think it would be fair
      F-104G compares with the Yak-28B as a tactical nuclear bomber.

      F-106 compares more with the Yak-28P and Su-15 in armament and range as interceptors

      Closest aircraft to the MiG 21 in the 1960s was probably the F-5A

      No real Soviet equivalent to the F-4 as a multi-role aircraft.

      Comment

      • nastle
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Feb 2005
        • 547

        #4
        Originally posted by paralay View Post
        F-104 in competition with the MiG-21
        F-106 compare with su-9 / su-11
        F-101 - Yak-28P and Tu-128
        Su-15 it makes sense to compare with the F-4
        I Think it would be fair
        But even in fighter role su15tm is not even comparable to f-4C/D versions ?
        how do you see it?

        Comment

        • paralay
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Aug 2005
          • 1411

          #5
          Tasks that performed f-4 Phantom in the US air force in the USSR air force performed three types:
          Su-15, MiG-23 and Su-24

          Comment

          • nastle
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Feb 2005
            • 547

            #6
            Agreed but in terms of missile armament, agility , performance isn't su15 more similar to f104 than f4 ?

            Comment

            • paralay
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Aug 2005
              • 1411

              #7
              F-104, wing load 494 - 723 kg/m2, thrust 0.54 - 0.79 kgf/kg
              F-4, wing load 383 - 570 kg/m2, thrust 0.58 - 0.86 kgf/kg
              Su-15TM wing load 470 - 489 kg/m2, thrust 0.75 - 0.78 kgf/kg

              Phantom has the advantage
              Last edited by paralay; 20th April 2019, 04:43.

              Comment

              • xena
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Nov 2012
                • 141

                #8
                What was the job of the Su-15? Wasn't it a pure interceptor? So agility wasn't demanded. Phantom can not be taken for comparison, because it was a multi role fighter. I would not compare similar aircraft. I would compare specific fighter with their likely opponents. Who were the opponents of the Su-15? In the southern area it was F-104 and F-4. The typical indicators say, that Su-15 should be more agile than F-104. Now we should take a deeper look into the details. Is there a flight manual of the Su-15 around?

                Comment

                • nastle
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Feb 2005
                  • 547

                  #9
                  You are right even in the pure interceptor role su15 is likely to encounter especially in the Southern sector F104 or mirage configured for a strike role also personally I think phantom is head and shoulders above the flagon in terms of performance

                  Comment

                  • Sens
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jan 2000
                    • 12298

                    #10
                    The Su-15 was useless against a F-104 in the striker-role at low level and its weaponary did not allow a turning contest higher up. Ask the Italiens about that. High-up and supersonic the wing-load comparison no longer works, when it comes to the lift ratio of the wing design. .

                    Comment

                    • nastle
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Feb 2005
                      • 547

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Sens View Post
                      The Su-15 was useless against a F-104 in the striker-role at low level and its weaponary did not allow a turning contest higher up. Ask the Italiens about that. High-up and supersonic the wing-load comparison no longer works, when it comes to the lift ratio of the wing design. .
                      so high wingloading at high altitudes makes you more agile ?

                      and 1979 on the TM versions were cleared to carry R-60

                      Last edited by nastle; 23rd April 2019, 18:23.

                      Comment

                      • Sens
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jan 2000
                        • 12298

                        #12
                        Yes in that very case. You forgot the thickness of the wing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockhe...04_Starfighter See under Airframe about that.
                        The F-104 becomes better with rising speed, there it gives a superior lift-drag-ratio and a better role-rate to start a faster turning. See the MiG-23 about that, when it is going supersonic. There is no sustained turning demanded any longer. The TM got the R-60 for smaller targets and self-defence, its limited turning performance in mind. The R-60M with a cooled seeker offered the use in head on engagements.
                        https://wikivisually.com/wiki/R-60_(missile)
                        Last edited by Sens; 24th April 2019, 18:13.

                        Comment

                        • nastle
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Feb 2005
                          • 547

                          #13
                          Pakistanis used f104 in combat and was widely accepted as inferior to mig21fl which was a poor low level performer itself

                          Comment

                          • Levsha
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 2851

                            #14
                            Originally posted by nastle View Post
                            Pakistanis used f104 in combat and was widely accepted as inferior to mig21fl which was a poor low level performer itself
                            No, it is not "widely accepted" that the F-104 was inferior to the MiG-21 - wherever did you get that idea?

                            Comment

                            • nastle
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Feb 2005
                              • 547

                              #15
                              Well look at the combat record of both in this intense albeit brief conflict

                              Comment

                              • Sens
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jan 2000
                                • 12298

                                #16
                                Just a small number of events near ground level. http://www.i-f-s.nl/f-104-operators/
                                http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/may/f-104.htm
                                1971 Pakistan-India War
                                Dec 12th 1971 over Jamnagar several MiG-21s of 47 Sqn fought attacking F-104s of 9 Sqn and shot down one.
                                Dec 16th 1971 over Shakargah the biggest battle when two F-104s were shot down by a MiG-21s CAP of 29 Sqn. Source: Air Wars And Aircraft by Victor Flintham in 1989

                                Comment

                                • nastle
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Feb 2005
                                  • 547

                                  #17
                                  Yeah in most modern combat its all about " small number of events "
                                  F 104 was not involved in any bigger conflicts so we will never know
                                  nor is the su15 going to be exhumed anytime soon
                                  but the comparison was based on the potential of their conflict , given both served in great numbers in the same era

                                  Comment

                                  • Sens
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2000
                                    • 12298

                                    #18
                                    Everyone can make up his mind, why the Su-15TM was never based near a central battle field and was in PVO-service only. A pure interceptor to deal with higher flying bombers at first.
                                    https://hushkit.net/2019/04/26/inter...ding-the-ussr/
                                    Here you learn about the 6 G-limit of the Su-15 and the B-52, its main target.
                                    https://warisboring.com/the-su-15-wa...d-a-cosmonaut/
                                    I give that link my first sentence in mind.

                                    Last edited by Sens; 5th May 2019, 13:28.

                                    Comment

                                    • nastle
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Feb 2005
                                      • 547

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Sens View Post
                                      Everyone can make up his mind, why the Su-15TM was never based near a central battle field and was in PVO-service only. A pure interceptor to deal with higher flying bombers at first.
                                      https://hushkit.net/2019/04/26/inter...ding-the-ussr/
                                      Here you learn about the 6 G-limit of the Su-15 and the B-52, its main target.
                                      https://warisboring.com/the-su-15-wa...d-a-cosmonaut/
                                      I give that link my first sentence in mind.
                                      Aircraft do not always fight the ones they were designed to combat
                                      it depends on the circumstances and situations
                                      And the targets available , that's why mig17 fought f4 in Vietnam and f86 Sabres fought mig21 in indopak wars etc etc
                                      If su15 is in a warzone where there are no b52 bombers and there is a shortage of VVS fighters to intercept intruding strike planes like f104 , I'm sure they will be scrambled.

                                      Btw thanks for the first link
                                      Last edited by nastle; 16th May 2019, 20:01.

                                      Comment

                                      • TomcatViP
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Nov 2011
                                        • 6108

                                        #20
                                        Sens : nice read. Thank you.

                                        Comment

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