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Swiss Air Force combat fighter competition 2.0

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  • FBW
    FBW
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Dec 2011
    • 3260

    #41
    Originally posted by OPIT View Post
    Whatever. Basic ISR is not recce.
    What is "basic" ISR?

    How do you differentiate intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance from the reconnaissance part? This does not makes sense.

    Last edited by FBW; 10th May 2019, 13:13.

    Comment

    • bandua
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Sep 2012
      • 76

      #42
      I honestly think it is a really open context.
      SH provides continuity with the F18s that they already have at a really competitive price.
      Eurofighter is probably the best performance wise particularly focusing on QRA, and an aircraft present in several neighbors (Germany, Italy, Austria).
      Rafale won the previous context when regarding technical aspects.
      F35 is the new western standard.
      Gripen E won the previous context and keeps offering all the needed aspects at a reasonable price. plus an extra in the ease of use which is really convenient in this case.

      Comment

      • TomcatViP
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Nov 2011
        • 5959

        #43
        20y after hard procurement all across the military spectrum to cut time from sensor to shooter, we are greeted by Opit's conclusions. Ahhh to live a live meaningful...

        Comment

        • OPIT
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Aug 2005
          • 893

          #44
          Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
          20y after hard procurement all across the military spectrum to cut time from sensor to shooter, we are greeted by Opit's conclusions. Ahhh to live a live meaningful...
          Go get a brain. The devil is in the details. The keyword here is sensor.

          Comment

          • halloweene
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2012
            • 4233

            #45
            Originally posted by FBW View Post

            What is "basic" ISR?

            How do you differentiate intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance from the reconnaissance part? This does not makes sense.
            Simply put, F-35 - or a targeting pod with basic ISR capabilities- has nothing such as a sophisticated and dedicated 1.5T reccepod can give (be it focal, number of sensors etc.). "basi isr" is also known as NT (non traditional) ISR.

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            • halloweene
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2012
              • 4233

              #46
              Switzerland asked for 60% offsets going to their BIT

              https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...ir-773068.html

              Good luck to F-35...

              Comment

              • TomcatViP
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Nov 2011
                • 5959

                #47
                Originally posted by halloweene View Post
                Switzerland asked for 60% offsets going to their BIT

                https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...ir-773068.html

                Good luck to F-35...
                This has been discussed already when the RFI was out: if I remind correctly, maintenance and fleet sustainement can be part of the offset calculation which would make in 20year (my mem only) quite an easy sum to balance... This is very different from the MMRCA in India

                Correction: it's 30years and this was even stated at the bottom of the article:
                la Suisse valuera la participation industrielle directe ou programme industriel (tendue et qualit). Surtout, elle prendra en compte aussi bien les cots d'acquisition des systmes que les cots d'exploitation pendant une dure d'utilisation de 30 ans. En revanche, elle ne prendra pas en compte les cots des ventuels programmes de modernisation ou de maintien de la performance ainsi que les frais de mise hors service.
                ----------------------------------------

                Switzerland will evaluate direct industrial participation or industrial program (scope and quality). Above all, it will take into account both system acquisition costs and operating costs over a 30-year period of use. On the other hand, it will not take into account the costs of any modernization or performance maintenance programs as well as the costs of decommissioning.
                Last edited by TomcatViP; 18th May 2019, 13:21.

                Comment

                • garryA
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Dec 2015
                  • 1117

                  #48
                  Originally posted by halloweene View Post
                  Simply put, F-35 - or a targeting pod with basic ISR capabilities- has nothing such as a sophisticated and dedicated 1.5T reccepod can give (be it focal, number of sensors etc.). "basi isr" is also known as NT (non traditional) ISR.
                  A dedicated recon pod will have bigger aperture than F-35's EOTS and DAS, and possibly in wider spectrum as well. On the otherhand, F-35 can get much closer to the threat bubble than a Rafale or Gripen carrying 1.5 tons pod, so while its optical sensor might not see as far as a dedicated pod, it can get closer to see.
                  Furthermore, i don't think F-35 recon mode is limited with optical sensor, it is likely that APG-81 and ASQ-239 are used as well

                  Comment

                  • FBW
                    FBW
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3260

                    #49
                    Originally posted by halloweene View Post

                    Simply put, F-35 - or a targeting pod with basic ISR capabilities- has nothing such as a sophisticated and dedicated 1.5T reccepod can give (be it focal, number of sensors etc.). "basi isr" is also known as NT (non traditional) ISR.
                    Having to carry a 1.5 ton recce pod to possibly provide slightly superior ISR capability to the F-35s incorporated sensors is a disadvantage, not an advance. Big SAR is coming to the F-35 in block 4.

                    Comment

                    • FBW
                      FBW
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3260

                      #50
                      Originally posted by halloweene View Post
                      Switzerland asked for 60% offsets going to their BIT

                      https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...ir-773068.html

                      Good luck to F-35...
                      Why good luck? Are you still confused on the difference between partner nation agreement not allowing offsets and an FMS customer? Hint.. you made the same mistake a few days ago with Belgium. Read what people write, especially if they actually know information about the F-35 program.

                      edit-for the record, I dont think the F-35 wins the Swiss contract. Its overkill for their needs, and certainly not the cheapest to operate. Still doesnt excuse sloppy unsubstantiated posts speculating ISR rating in the competition, or an offset canard. Plenty of canards in this competition.
                      Last edited by FBW; 18th May 2019, 15:53.

                      Comment

                      • TomcatViP
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Nov 2011
                        • 5959

                        #51
                        The most annoying part of this thread for Swiss ppl might be outsider judging their defense needs and their aspiration for the operational capability of their Airforce just by the say of it.
                        Swiss defense strategy has always been to be the harder nut to crack in the lot against Warsaw pact for example. They have a conscript army very much like Israel (but men only - at least what I remember). So why will ppl prejudge of Israel absolute need for the 35 while looking down a the Swiss airforce?
                        Last edited by TomcatViP; 18th May 2019, 19:15.

                        Comment

                        • Sanem
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Oct 2010
                          • 587

                          #52
                          Switzerland should include the UTAP-22 in the competition, it would be way more fitting for their needs, being cheap and compact enough to launch from pretty much any base without the need for a landing strip. Give it a pair of Sidewinders (or if you can get something in R-60 class you can hang one on each wingtip) and a gunpod, and a handful of these could intercept any intruder in a matter of minutes 24/7, like reusable SAMs. It can also do ISR and ground attack to great effect, like reusable cruise missiles. At $2 million each Switzerland could field a hundred for the price of a few manned jets.

                          Edit: I forgot Switzerland has the Stinger, they can hang a few of those off the UTAP-22, being small and light yet giving it enough punch to be taken seriously.
                          Last edited by Sanem; 19th May 2019, 06:25.

                          Comment

                          • halloweene
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2012
                            • 4233

                            #53
                            Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post

                            This has been discussed already when the RFI was out: if I remind correctly, maintenance and fleet sustainement can be part of the offset calculation which would make in 20year (my mem only) quite an easy sum to balance... This is very different from the MMRCA in India

                            Correction: it's 30years and this was even stated at the bottom of the article:



                            First off all you can use as many smileys as you want, it will not give anymore weight to your statements.
                            Second the total amount is 100% and who told you in switzerland th fleet sustainlment could be part of offset calculation in switzerland? Your faith?
                            Pour le prochain avion de combat, le groupe suisse sera dsign comme centre de comptences pour le matriel (CCM) au lancement du projet. Il ralisera les tches, non dvolues l'arme suisse, concernant le suivi technique du systme, la gestion du matriel entre la Suisse et l'tranger et la maintenance des avions
                            It is already in the RFP that RUAG iwill be responsible tof fleet sustainment. Nothing to do with offsets.

                            Twisting facts as mch as you want will not change them.

                            Oh btw, did you notice that 20% of the offsets can be accounted as anterior to the RFP (RUAG, Pilatus...)
                            Last edited by halloweene; 19th May 2019, 11:01.

                            Comment

                            • TooCool_12f
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Dec 2009
                              • 3302

                              #54
                              Originally posted by Sanem View Post
                              Switzerland should include the UTAP-22 in the competition, it would be way more fitting for their needs, being cheap and compact enough to launch from pretty much any base without the need for a landing strip. Give it a pair of Sidewinders (or if you can get something in R-60 class you can hang one on each wingtip) and a gunpod, and a handful of these could intercept any intruder in a matter of minutes 24/7, like reusable SAMs. It can also do ISR and ground attack to great effect, like reusable cruise missiles. At $2 million each Switzerland could field a hundred for the price of a few manned jets.

                              Edit: I forgot Switzerland has the Stinger, they can hang a few of those off the UTAP-22, being small and light yet giving it enough punch to be taken seriously.
                              okay but.. how do you intercept a liner or a light aircraft that has communications problem, or something along the lines of "I need help!", hummm? ^^

                              air policing and assistance is 99% of operational job of every european nations air force...

                              Comment

                              • TomcatViP
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Nov 2011
                                • 5959

                                #55
                                Originally posted by halloweene View Post


                                First off all you can use as many smileys as you want, it will not give anymore weight to your statements.
                                Second the total amount is 100% and who told you in switzerland th fleet sustainlment could be part of offset calculation in switzerland? Your faith?

                                It is already in the RFP that RUAG iwill be responsible tof fleet sustainment. Nothing to do with offsets.

                                Twisting facts as mch as you want will not change them.

                                Oh btw, did you notice that 20% of the offsets can be accounted as anterior to the RFP (RUAG, Pilatus...)
                                I don't know what new phobia of you is this with Smileys (they are round faces much like a pumpkin) But for the 20%, US SOCOM bought a fair number of Pilatus (U-28) that should easily account for the 20% .

                                Comment

                                • halloweene
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2012
                                  • 4233

                                  #56
                                  Smiley's are just kiddish. That's all. U-28 accounting for 20% of the value of fighters? Despairing...

                                  Comment

                                  • eagle
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2000
                                    • 2345

                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                                    The most annoying part of this thread for Swiss ppl might be outsider judging their defense needs and their aspiration for the operational capability of their Airforce just by the say of it.
                                    Swiss defense strategy has always been to be the harder nut to crack in the lot against Warsaw pact for example. They have a conscript army very much like Israel (but men only - at least what I remember). So why will ppl prejudge of Israel absolute need for the 35 while looking down a the Swiss airforce?
                                    Israel though operates a lot more than 40 fighters. And while both have conscription armies (yes men only in Switzerland), Israeli army is fully equipped. Swiss army is a lot of folklore, some might say this has always been the case. I mean Hunters in the 90s? Would not have been nice against WP armies.

                                    But still the need for new fighters is there. F-35 or not doesn't really matter imho. Provided operating cost are comparable.
                                    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
                                    Yngwie Malmsteen

                                    Comment

                                    • eagle
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jan 2000
                                      • 2345

                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by halloweene View Post
                                      Second the total amount is 100% and who told you in switzerland th fleet sustainlment could be part of offset calculation in switzerland? Your faith?
                                      No it has been reduced to 60% total - 20% direct and 40% indirect offsets. https://www.vbs.admin.ch/fr/defense/...ce-aerien.html

                                      More important, the SAM procurement has been split from the fighter deal. It's now CHF 6 billion for the new jets, though some have already said this isn't enough, demanding the budget to be raised to 7 billion.
                                      However, since Belgium pays EUR 4 billion for their 34 F-35 aircraft, which is about CHF 4.5 billion, I'd say 6 billion is good enough for 40 jets.
                                      How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
                                      Yngwie Malmsteen

                                      Comment

                                      • eagle
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2000
                                        • 2345

                                        #59
                                        Originally posted by garryA View Post
                                        Furthermore, i don't think F-35 recon mode is limited with optical sensor, it is likely that APG-81 and ASQ-239 are used as well
                                        Sure. But it's not like Rafale/Gripen/SH have to choose between optical sensors and radar/EW-suite. Those are always there with the pod being an option F-35 and EF can't offer.


                                        It's nice btw. to see the Rafales arriving with all the gizmos. I didn't expect Sniper though.

                                        EF on the other hand is out imho, for political reasons. I've said it before, shouldn't have let ze Germans run the business.


                                        Here's a longer video of Rafales at Payerne:
                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKwcxJFqNJw
                                        How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
                                        Yngwie Malmsteen

                                        Comment

                                        • Spitfire9
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jul 2008
                                          • 2795

                                          #60
                                          Originally posted by eagle View Post
                                          EF on the other hand is out imho, for political reasons. I've said it before, shouldn't have let ze Germans run the business.
                                          Unaware of the political angle. Would you be able to inform me better, please?
                                          Sum ergo cogito

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