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Syrian air defense and Israel airforce

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  • panzerfeist1
    Rank 4 Registered User
    • Feb 2018
    • 204

    Syrian air defense and Israel airforce

    I do not know if this thread is worth posting because of the last thread we had on the Syrian tomahawk strike got immediately deleted. But to me this thread is worth having up because it still pertains to air force abilities and this conflict is an ongoing one as well. I am going to start off with my Quora posts to give a general idea where to start on what people's posts here will focus on.

    https://www.debka.com/moscow-israeli...ld-to-Lebanon/

    Russian military sources described the Israeli attack as being conducted by IAF warplanes which launched 16 missiles carrying GBU-39 bunker busters. Two reached their targets and 14 were intercepted by Syrian air defense weapons.

    DEBKAfiles military and intelligence sources note that the Russian version partially dovetails with the version presented by US military sources. Both affirm that GBU-39 Small Diameter bombs were used, but the Americans claim they were used in the second Israeli wave of strikes and only after Syrian anti-air missiles knocked out most of the Delilah cruise missiles fired from F-16 jets.

    14 divided by 16 you get a interception rate of 87.5% by the way this is when 2 sides come to an agreement meaning this is not a one side claim(which can be exaggerated to look good). In the April 2017 strike on Syria that Pantsir-S1 was claimed to have a 100% interception rate against tomahawks(what Russians claimed). Tomahawks do come with the advantage to hide on high buildings but has 2 disadvantages that come with it when compared to the Delilah missile. It is a bigger target on radar when compared to the 87.5% interception rate against Delilah cruise missile(where both sides agree on) and because its low altitude the Pantsir-S1 is able to use 30mm anti-aircraft rounds which it could not use against high altitude Delilah missiles. Again what are people's thoughts between these cruise missiles this is the only way I could differentiate them.

    https://youtu.be/qEYTeUOMexg
    Out of many raids there has been 1 pantsir-s1 unit that happened to be destroyed and of course both sides agree on is obviously turned on. Pantsir-S1s cost 1314 million dollars. Intercepted 14 targets in a Christmas raid, 30 targets at its latest raid, and constant attacks before these timeframes as well. Do not know if the system is beyond operable or can be repaired. Although seeing the person in there people are wondering why he was not driving away. I am assuming the tracking radars limited 90 degrees requires the vehicle to be turned around and if he was to turn into the direction of where the bombs were going his face would be eating missiles, was he reloading, was he being jammed? There are a variety of questions popping up which I would like an opinion on this board.

    S-300s will soon be used by Syrians.

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article...system-source/
    Per the source, the Syrian military should be fully ready to use the S-300 system over the next few weeks, as they have nearly completed all of their training exercises with the Russian armed forces. This is a source from a week ago.

    https://syria.liveuamap.com/en/2019/...-by-next-month
    22 days ago saying next month.(guess weeks can be added on it and technically still call it next month).

    F
    or arguments sake lets just say the Syrians begin operating the s-300s in Damascus and the rest of their defense network like today.
    • a month, few months or possibly a year if no Israeli air strikes come this shows the effectiveness of the S-300.
    • Will Israel conduct airstrikes lets say for example(don't take my estimate seriously) instead of 1015kms away they have done with short range they now have to do it 6070kms because of the S-300 air defense system causing accuracy issues this will show the effectiveness of the s-300.
    • Shooting down military aircrafts with ease and not giving a **** about bombardment and depending on casualties from both sides will show the effectiveness of the S-300.
    • Lets say instead of a s-200 that has shot down an F-16 before the s-300 did in which Israels defense minister made a bold claim that they will destroy the s-300 if a single f-16 was shot down. If no air strike comes later and the s-300 still remains operational this will show the effectiveness of the s-300 and screw up a countrys air force reputation with the latest technology.
    Since this is an ongoing conflict I would like people to share their ideas here or even provide me information I could have missed or gotten wrong. Anything missile, air force and air defense related regarding Syria should be shared here. Or hell even new weapons Israel is developing and could use in their possession or things like KRET testing new EW systems when obtaining tomahawk missiles. Make this thread fun without the use of raging autists arguing over stupid ****.
  • haavarla
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Dec 2008
    • 6525

    #2
    Not this again..
    The reason you will not see S-300 ever used on Israeli jets is that they are under Horizon for Target radar.
    IAF launch their weapons behind a mountain/ridge line and pop down, straight down hugging ground, back to Base.

    Unless you have any explenation how the S-300 can see through hard ground..

    But for all intent and purpose, it forces Israeli to a very limited flight/attack profile. So in the end the notion of having an S-300 in Syria is wort every penny.
    Call it a very cheap de-escalation method.
    Last edited by haavarla; 28th February 2019, 17:03.
    Thanks

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    • panzerfeist1
      Rank 4 Registered User
      • Feb 2018
      • 204

      #3
      haavarla "
      Not this again..
      The reason you will not see S-300 ever used on Israeli jets is that they are under Horizon for Target radar.
      IAF launch their weapons behind a mountain/ridge line and pop down, straight down hugging ground, back to Base"

      Regarding flight profile, there was a bmpd LiveJournal showing the radar screen of an S-400 and I believe if I remember the estimate correctly they have said the F-16 was flying 9-10 kms up the air(IL-20 incident) which I do not have to do the radar horizon math can be tracked 100kms or more. Also these short range air defenses have been slaved to the S-300 the reason why this would be troublesome is 1. they cannot keep high altitude profiles in which missiles can be range dependent on this. 2. Getting close will be a pain because you will have to have a low altitude profile but depending how close you are getting with a low altitude profile you can even risked getting hit by short range air defenses using 30mm anti-aircraft rounds.

      Its a deterrent but this addition will still change the battlefield than compared to before.

      Comment

      • Levsha
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2006
        • 2788

        #4
        Originally posted by panzerfeist1 View Post
        or arguments sake lets just say the Syrians begin operating the s-300s in Damascus and the rest of their defense network like today. a month, few months or possibly a year if no Israeli air strikes come this shows the effectiveness of the S-300.
        That's a very simplistic way of looking at it. If the Israelis do, in fact, launch air raids in territory covered by the S-300 in the near future will you accept that this proof of the lack of effectiveness of the S-300 system?
        • Will Israel conduct airstrikes lets say for example(don't take my estimate seriously) instead of 1015kms away they have done with short range they now have to do it 6070kms because of the S-300 air defense system causing accuracy issues this will show the effectiveness of the s-300.
        Sure, that would highlight that the S-300 is more effective than the previous air-defence systems. Even the air defence systems that Syria possesses today are effective at making more difficult, and expensive, to carry out air strikes - even if they can't actually prevent and stop such air strikes. The S-200, Kub etc are certainly effective up to a point. But the S-300 is just another anti aircraft missile system - it's not a miracle weapon.
        Last edited by Levsha; 28th February 2019, 17:33.

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        • panzerfeist1
          Rank 4 Registered User
          • Feb 2018
          • 204

          #5
          "That's a very simplistic way of looking at it. If the Israelis do, in fact, launch air raids in territory covered by the S-300 in the near future will you accept that this proof of the lack of effectiveness of the S-300 system?"

          Depends on the cost of their operation like will they spend more than NATO did on their war efforts n Kosovo(if their F-16 was in fact shot down)? If they still launch strikes the question is how far instead of before with no long range air defense present.


          " But the S-300 is just another anti aircraft missile system - it's not a miracle weapon" I agree but I wonder if the chances have increased since the last time the F-16 was shot down by a s-200 in Syria. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wbl-i3HIcM don't be saying ahh this is BS keep in mind a jewish news agency posted this video.


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          Last edited by panzerfeist1; 28th February 2019, 17:42.

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          • Levsha
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2006
            • 2788

            #6
            Originally posted by panzerfeist1 View Post
            Depends on the cost of their operation like will they spend more than NATO did on their war efforts n Kosovo? If they still launch strikes the question is how far instead of before with no long range air defense present.
            No, Israel won't spend more than NATO did over Kosovo in 1999 - the Israeli air raids over Syria don't have that same scope.
            If the S-300 batteries are the first targets of the next Israeli air strikes I'd imagine that the stand-off range of Israeli air strikes will not be greatly effected in the long run.

            Comment

            • panzerfeist1
              Rank 4 Registered User
              • Feb 2018
              • 204

              #7
              "
              I'd imagine that the stand-off range of Israeli air strikes will not be greatly effected in the long run." That depends on EW systems next and even things like decoy emitters fooling radiation missiles, etc. There were some NATO aircrafts that were shot down before. In fact the addition of this air defense system is not a walk in the park if the US and Israel asked Ukraine(very **** s-300 variants) for information and asked Greece with their outdated variants. We both have opinions but what comes down next are the results.

              Comment

              • FBW
                FBW
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Dec 2011
                • 3124

                #8
                In fact the addition of this air defense system is not a walk in the park if the US and Israel asked Ukraine(very **** s-300 variants) for information and asked Greece with their outdated variants. We both have opinions but what comes down next are the results.
                Why wouldn't they? FME is an important part of realistic training. The 477th received F-7B in the late 1980's even though the MiG-21 was no longer a frontline fighter with the Soviets.

                Tolicha Peak Electronic Combat Range has an array of various S-300 components and variants, and yes they received a Ukrainian 36D6m1-1. Basically, if the weapon system could still be encountered, it's worth acquiring and using in training scenarios. Russia, I'm sure, would be happy to get their hands on a AN/MPQ-53 despite 1985 IOC.

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