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Advantage of "first look first shot " in 1980s era combat

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  • nastle
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Feb 2005
    • 524

    Advantage of "first look first shot " in 1980s era combat

    Hello

    Just wanted to see how important was the first look first shoot advantage in 1980s era combat ? Was air combat more likely to occur at ranges of 70km which was the max range of AIM-7M ?

    Did the Newer soviet fighters of 80s like early variants of Su-27 and Mig-29 9.12 / 9.12A carried any ECM to jam incoming AIM-7?

    Or did the soviets employ specific jammers/jamming aircraft to defeat SARH missiles ?
    Last edited by nastle; 2nd February 2019, 14:20.
  • Evalu8ter
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Nov 2011
    • 186

    #2
    Having spent many years "fighting" SARH Mx such as AIM-7 and SkyFlash (albeit from a RW perspective) a 70Km shot against an RWR-equipped aircraft has a very, very low PK. The use of specialised manoeuvre and/or chaff will break the lock or fade the track, and either prevent the Mx from launching or from continuing to guide. SARH Mx are OK if you're targeting either an enemy who is unaware you're there, or if the enemy is trying to do the same thing to you - then, as my FJ mates would tell me, it becomes a race to F-POLE/E-POLE depending on the range of your Mx, your altitude/velocity at launch (improved Mx kinematics), Mx fly-out speed and the slew angle your mechanically scanned radar can accept off-boresight (as you try to prevent closure). For SARH, if you "kill" the mother radar of the Mx that's inbound to you (by hitting it with your Mx first or by making the enemy break away and stop illuminating you) you win as the enemy Mx no longer has reflected energy to follow to you. BVR is making a huge comeback now with the ability to, potentially, 3rd party cue an AMRAAM/Meteor and launch it cold with the Mx seeker head only going active at the terminal phase, giving the enemy very little time to react. Hope that at least partially helps.

    Comment

    • St. John
      Rank 4 Registered User
      • Jan 2018
      • 568

      #3
      One study reckoned that Soviet jamming could reduce radar effective range down to 9-11km, which was why IRST was introduced for the Typhoon.

      Comment

      • nastle
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Feb 2005
        • 524

        #4
        Originally posted by Evalu8ter View Post
        Having spent many years "fighting" SARH Mx such as AIM-7 and SkyFlash (albeit from a RW perspective) a 70Km shot against an RWR-equipped aircraft has a very, very low PK. The use of specialised manoeuvre and/or chaff will break the lock or fade the track, and either prevent the Mx from launching or from continuing to guide. SARH Mx are OK if you're targeting either an enemy who is unaware you're there, or if the enemy is trying to do the same thing to you - then, as my FJ mates would tell me, it becomes a race to F-POLE/E-POLE depending on the range of your Mx, your altitude/velocity at launch (improved Mx kinematics), Mx fly-out speed and the slew angle your mechanically scanned radar can accept off-boresight (as you try to prevent closure). For SARH, if you "kill" the mother radar of the Mx that's inbound to you (by hitting it with your Mx first or by making the enemy break away and stop illuminating you) you win as the enemy Mx no longer has reflected energy to follow to you. BVR is making a huge comeback now with the ability to, potentially, 3rd party cue an AMRAAM/Meteor and launch it cold with the Mx seeker head only going active at the terminal phase, giving the enemy very little time to react. Hope that at least partially helps.
        thanks for detailed reply

        I was trying to see what would be the effect of a salvo of BVR missiles against one target

        e.g lets say 1980s era ( lets say no AWACS or other ECM aircraft on either side )

        a PVO Mig-31 locates a jap/Saudi F-15C on its radar and fires all its 4 x SARH missiles at this one fighter

        The F-15C can also fire its AIM-7F in return and

        a- both aircraft take evasive action and lose lock , Mig escapes using its higher performance

        OR

        b -R-33 outranges the AIM-7F at high altitude ( 120 km vs 70 km )

        however R-33 is limited to 4G targets , so f-15 can easily dodge one missile at a time but can the F-15 avoid all 4 x R-33 if they are all targeted towards one aircraft ? I mean will it increase the pk ?

        appreciate any help

        Comment

        • nastle
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Feb 2005
          • 524

          #5
          Originally posted by St. John View Post
          One study reckoned that Soviet jamming could reduce radar effective range down to 9-11km, which was why IRST was introduced for the Typhoon.
          I read in gulf war effective range of AIM7M was 20-30 km at medium range thats where most kills were scored

          so the likelihood of BVR kills in 1980s at > 50 km range are very unlikely ?

          Comment

          • St. John
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • Jan 2018
            • 568

            #6
            Yep, the longest kill in Desert Storm was 28km, with 16 kills beyond 10nm (18.5km) and only 5 requiring dogfighting for F-15s. But ROEs were very strict in Desert Storm, that's why the Phoenix wasn't used, and the F-15 was the only aircraft with NCTR, so it got the longest kills. That said, Iraqi EW was not cutting edge.

            Comment

            • litzj
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Mar 2016
              • 24

              #7
              Is that effective at Korean theater having narrow and a lot of mountain air-space ?

              Comment

              • nastle
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Feb 2005
                • 524

                #8
                Originally posted by litzj View Post
                Is that effective at Korean theater having narrow and a lot of mountain air-space ?
                Well if its low altitude then range of SARH missiles will be limited anyway

                Comment

                • nastle
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Feb 2005
                  • 524

                  #9
                  Originally posted by St. John View Post
                  Yep, the longest kill in Desert Storm was 28km, with 16 kills beyond 10nm (18.5km) and only 5 requiring dogfighting for F-15s. But ROEs were very strict in Desert Storm, that's why the Phoenix wasn't used, and the F-15 was the only aircraft with NCTR, so it got the longest kills. That said, Iraqi EW was not cutting edge.
                  Yes just reading Tom coopers book on mig23 seems like Soviets deliberately gave their Arab allies not just inferior planes but also not integrated radar GC systems or EW platforms ground or air based

                  I think aim7m pk was like 25 % atleast the ones fired from f-15

                  Comment

                  • St. John
                    Rank 4 Registered User
                    • Jan 2018
                    • 568

                    #10
                    Originally posted by nastle View Post

                    Yes just reading Tom coopers book on mig23 seems like Soviets deliberately gave their Arab allies not just inferior planes but also not integrated radar GC systems or EW platforms ground or air based

                    I think aim7m pk was like 25 % atleast the ones fired from f-15
                    In Desert Storm the AIM-7M Pk was 34%. The Iraqis had some MiG-29s and MiG-25s. The Iraqi ground control assets were neutralised very early on by a combination of cruise missiles, F-117s and SEAD/DEAD, along with the use of BQM-74s and TALD decoys. There were more targets hit during the first 24 hours than the allied air offensive hit in Europe during the whole of 1942 and 1943.

                    Comment

                    • nastle
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Feb 2005
                      • 524

                      #11
                      Originally posted by St. John View Post
                      In Desert Storm the AIM-7M Pk was 34%. The Iraqis had some MiG-29s and MiG-25s. The Iraqi ground control assets were neutralised very early on by a combination of cruise missiles, F-117s and SEAD/DEAD, along with the use of BQM-74s and TALD decoys. There were more targets hit during the first 24 hours than the allied air offensive hit in Europe during the whole of 1942 and 1943.
                      incredible
                      I wonder what the gulf war would have been like if US/NATO did not intervene
                      lets say it was Iraq vs KSA/egypt/UAE and gulf arab states
                      do you think the air war would still have been so one-sided
                      the saudis and egyptians did have a lot of great aircarft ( 42 f-15c , 90 f-16a/c , 16 mirage 2000 , 50 F-4E , 20 tornado ADV , UAE had further 20+ mirage 2000)

                      Comment

                      • St. John
                        Rank 4 Registered User
                        • Jan 2018
                        • 568

                        #12
                        Originally posted by nastle View Post

                        incredible
                        I wonder what the gulf war would have been like if US/NATO did not intervene
                        lets say it was Iraq vs KSA/egypt/UAE and gulf arab states
                        do you think the air war would still have been so one-sided
                        the saudis and egyptians did have a lot of great aircarft ( 42 f-15c , 90 f-16a/c , 16 mirage 2000 , 50 F-4E , 20 tornado ADV , UAE had further 20+ mirage 2000)
                        I'm going to say that KSA would still have won the air war due to having US supplied AWACS and F-15Cs. I know one KSA pilot got 2 kills. The ground war would have been more interesting though. Iraq had the world's 4th largest military and army at the time, they also had longer range howitzers than the allies believe it or not. Would KSA have had enough air power to overwhelm the Iraqi armoured units fast enough? Difficult to say, because the A-10s, F-111s and F-15Es did nearly all the work in that department dubbed 'tank plinking', and KSA did not have those. Another question would be KSA SEAD/DEAD capability, which would have lacked many US assets, although I think they had ALARM-equipped Tornados. Would the Iraqis have stormed the Saudi on the ground and taken their airbases were in not for allied help? Who knows?

                        Comment

                        • nastle
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Feb 2005
                          • 524

                          #13
                          Originally posted by St. John View Post
                          I'm going to say that KSA would still have won the air war due to having US supplied AWACS and F-15Cs. I know one KSA pilot got 2 kills. The ground war would have been more interesting though. Iraq had the world's 4th largest military and army at the time, they also had longer range howitzers than the allies believe it or not. Would KSA have had enough air power to overwhelm the Iraqi armoured units fast enough? Difficult to say, because the A-10s, F-111s and F-15Es did nearly all the work in that department dubbed 'tank plinking', and KSA did not have those. Another question would be KSA SEAD/DEAD capability, which would have lacked many US assets, although I think they had ALARM-equipped Tornados. Would the Iraqis have stormed the Saudi on the ground and taken their airbases were in not for allied help? Who knows?
                          Thanks for your perspective


                          I think the iraqis vs KSA /arab states would have been a little less lopsided had iraqis also used better tactis and not committed their aircraft piece-meal

                          regarding saudi pilots , yes I know they got a few kills but that is when iraqi air defences have already been gutted by coalition and incessant airstrikes.

                          In a purely defensive role i.e protecting saudi airspace i think they would have been successful esp given the fact that the iraqi mig-29 was 9.12B with very limited avionics

                          but they would not have destroyed iraqi airpower on the ground like coalition did , nor could they probably entirely IAF eliminate them from supporting iraqi ground forces.But attrition would be high probably much higher than what iraqis faced against IIAF

                          although in strike /CAS role would they press their F-15 into service ? as they had only 25 tornado IDS in 1990

                          Comment

                          • eagle
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2000
                            • 2336

                            #14
                            Originally posted by St. John View Post
                            I'm going to say that KSA would still have won the air war due to having US supplied AWACS and F-15Cs. I know one KSA pilot got 2 kills.
                            https://theaviationgeekclub.com/cont...-desert-storm/


                            Originally posted by nastle View Post
                            although in strike /CAS role would they press their F-15 into service ? as they had only 25 tornado IDS in 1990
                            They did. Picture shows a Saudi F-15C, ex-USAF, armed with 3x Mk 84.
                            Click image for larger version

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                            How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
                            Yngwie Malmsteen

                            Comment

                            • nastle
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Feb 2005
                              • 524

                              #15
                              Originally posted by eagle View Post

                              https://theaviationgeekclub.com/cont...-desert-storm/




                              They did. Picture shows a Saudi F-15C, ex-USAF, armed with 3x Mk 84.
                              Click image for larger version

Name:	saudi_f-15c_fast_pack.jpg
Views:	159
Size:	41.2 KB
ID:	3854175
                              thanks

                              were any saudi F-15 PGM/LGB capable in 1990 ?

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