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UK's new Tempest fighter !

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  • Spitfire9
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jul 2008
    • 2825

    #81
    Sweden showing an interest in participating in Tempest.

    https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...-fighter-push/

    Sum ergo cogito

    Comment

    • XB-70
      Rank 4 Registered User
      • May 2018
      • 316

      #82
      Sweden is a good partner from the aspect of developing the aircraft. But they aren't from the aspect of market size. This program needs a country which makes substantial buys for it to get off the ground.

      Comment

      • TomcatViP
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Nov 2011
        • 6065

        #83
        Don't forget Saab's customer network by far outranging the limits of that Nordic state.

        Comment

        • Spitfire9
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jul 2008
          • 2825

          #84
          Sweden is a good partner from the aspect of developing the aircraft. But they aren't from the aspect of market size. This program needs a country which makes substantial buys for it to get off the ground.
          UK x 150 + Sweden x 50 + ??? Italy x 80 or ??? Japan x 100 might make the numbers viable? And who knows what problems Turkey will encounter with their 5G. If they foresee really serious problems early on in their project it might be worth their while to consider switching to Tempest.
          Sum ergo cogito

          Comment

          • XB-70
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • May 2018
            • 316

            #85
            Sure, it would help if Japan and/or Turkey joined the program. That's all just hypothetical for now though.

            TomcatViP - And please don't think I'm discounting that. But keep in mind, Saab's customers tend to be small states which will not order very many aircraft.

            Comment

            • TomcatViP
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Nov 2011
              • 6065

              #86
              XB-70 : I think you are focused on fighter jet. Please, have a look below at Saab other products (those are only airborne component but think also at all their product range):


              Map with Saab Erieye operators in blue BrazilGreeceMexicoSaudi ArabiaSwedenThailandUnited Arab Emirates
              Hint: Saudi-Arabia was the prime Arm buyer outside of the USA last year (https://qz.com/1434053/saudi-arabia-...pons-and-arms/)
              So b/w BAE and Saab, they have cornered much of the money making prospect to become the real Bonanza in the eyes of all serious investors... The so said 6th gen fighter market has never been less nebulous than yesterday.

              Source:
              Wiki
              Last edited by TomcatViP; 8th July 2019, 17:53.

              Comment

              • XB-70
                Rank 4 Registered User
                • May 2018
                • 316

                #87
                TomcatViP - Don't you think current fighter customers might be a better indicator of future fighter customers though?

                Comment

                • TomcatViP
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Nov 2011
                  • 6065

                  #88
                  I was reasoning on the basis of system of system. Imagine AIrbus and Dassault managing to complete with success their ambitious projects... Then they reach to the market already saturated with foreign AWAC ECM, JSTAR SIGINT etc.. system dominated by the US, UK/Italia and Sweden. What do they do to sell their system to a country already fielding NATO compatible or non-nato systems ? Send a notification letter asking them to modify their system in one week ?

                  I am sorry but if Sweden get on board Tempest, this might well be the swan song of the NGF (remember that French salesmen dream of a non-ITAR aircraft, hence non-NATO - there won't be much other system around given the cost to develop and credibly sustain it).

                  Comment

                  • XB-70
                    Rank 4 Registered User
                    • May 2018
                    • 316

                    #89
                    Don't get your hopes too high. The NGF and Tempest programs could end up very competitive. The French-German-Spanish project absolutely has the better market outlook at this time. But it is disadvantaged in not having as clear of a path towards developing an engine and (perhaps most importantly) Germany is a member - and the German government tends to add in export restrictions which might make plays in the middle east and such more difficult.

                    I'm not sure what you are going about with ITAR. You can make armaments fully compliant with NATO mandated codes and standards and have no ITAR obligations. Saying they want a non-ITAR platform just means they won't be able to source critical material from the US. If they can do that and still meet their deadline of the mid to late 30s then more power to them.

                    Comment

                    • Spitfire9
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jul 2008
                      • 2825

                      #90
                      Sweden, Japan, Italy and Turkey have been among the countries touted as being potential partners for a program aimed at seeing the first aircraft flying around 2035.

                      Mark Goldsack, the director of the UK government's defense and security export organization, told media at the Paris Air Show recently that the British were holding discussions about joining the program with at least a dozen countries.
                      https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...-fighter-push/

                      So talking to Sweden, Japan, Italy and Turkey is no surprise but at least 8 more countries? Apart from possibly Korea I cannot think who else might be interested in joining the Tempest programme. Any ideas, anyone?
                      Sum ergo cogito

                      Comment

                      • Sintra
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Aug 2007
                        • 3845

                        #91
                        Saudi Arabia should be obvious.
                        Canada, Kuwait, Oman, Brasil, Qatar, UAE, India?
                        sigpic

                        Comment

                        • Spitfire9
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jul 2008
                          • 2825

                          #92
                          Originally posted by Sintra View Post
                          Saudi Arabia should be obvious.
                          Canada, Kuwait, Oman, Brasil, Qatar, UAE, India?
                          Is the time right for Canada and Brazil? They will have new fighters arriving in the 2020's which I guess they will keep until well after 2040 which I think is the target for starting Tempest deliveries.

                          Yes, I overlooked India but I suspect that India will want to develop something indigenously. If India abandoned AMCA then Tempest participation would be a good idea forr India in my opinion.

                          Arabian peninsular countries? What could they contribute apart from funds? I'm not suggesting they could not contribute in any other way. I just don't know what. I also recall that Saudi Arabia was going to build some of the Typhoons they ordered but in the end did not organise anything so the Typhoons they were going to build ended up being built in England.
                          Sum ergo cogito

                          Comment

                          • TomcatViP
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Nov 2011
                            • 6065

                            #93
                            I think ppl should understand that system of systems implies on the shelf components made available to others. This is why (also) I wrote the above post. There won't be a non-ITAR (real) 6th Gen fighter outside of Russia and China. Don't crave for this. It's only French salesmen porn.
                            Understanding this, you can see that India can have its own AMCA and still cooperate on Tempest (or with another contender).


                            I am often amazed that most ppl can understand Lego at childhood but not the dynamic of the aero industry today
                            Last edited by TomcatViP; 10th July 2019, 18:45.

                            Comment

                            • Sintra
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Aug 2007
                              • 3845

                              #94
                              Brasil ordered 36 Gripens, the FAB fields around one hundred F-5E and AMX. I have no doubt that they will order more Gripens, but how many? If SAAB enters Tempest, there's a fine chance that the Brazilians would give a hard good look at the program.
                              Canada, well what can we say about Canada? The Hornet replacement program sure looks like shambles... I can see HM MOD and BAE talking to the Canadians, long shot, but...
                              The Middle Eastern chaps have the most pressing need in order for this program to take off, funds... BAE, RR and Leonardo have all the know how needed in order to build some decent hardware, what they don't have, and what the UK MOD lacks is money.
                              India, thats a sure bet, more than certain that BAE and the MOD have already talked with the chaps.

                              Cheers
                              sigpic

                              Comment

                              • Deino
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jan 2000
                                • 4186

                                #95
                                News concerning Schweden

                                https://mobile.twitter.com/RAeSTimR/...32890693709824
                                Last edited by Deino; 19th July 2019, 08:55.
                                ...

                                He was my North, my South, my East and West,
                                My working week and my Sunday rest,
                                My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
                                I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

                                The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
                                Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
                                Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
                                For nothing now can ever come to any good.
                                -------------------------------------------------
                                W.H.Auden (1945)

                                Comment

                                • JakobS
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Aug 2015
                                  • 155

                                  #96
                                  Don't think of it as Sweden joining Tempest, think of it more as Sweden is considering joining Tempest and how now launched a study with the UK to find out if it is possible. I mean it would have been insane for us to just jump aboard after one year, these thing takes a lot more time before they get of the ground.

                                  Comment

                                  • halloweene
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2012
                                    • 4344

                                    #97
                                    Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                                    I think ppl should understand that system of systems implies on the shelf components made available to others. This is why (also) I wrote the above post. There won't be a non-ITAR (real) 6th Gen fighter outside of Russia and China. Don't crave for this. It's only French salesmen porn.
                                    Understanding this, you can see that India can have its own AMCA and still cooperate on Tempest (or with another contender).


                                    I am often amazed that most ppl can understand Lego at childhood but not the dynamic of the aero industry today
                                    Always so assertive.... hilarious.

                                    Comment

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