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  • mig-31bm
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Oct 2013
    • 2073

    Originally posted by LMFS View Post
    I am using the data from SAR for C version. Have not looked profile but also are other things to consider like reserve fuel for carrier landing, I am not aware of how this was accounted for.
    Iam looking at your table now, but the objective is still 730 nm for CV version (the mission profile should be the same as before which is A2G).
    760 nm A2A combat radius is from 2016 for A version
    All combat radius in SAR are for A2G profile.

    Originally posted by LMFS
    As to your points below those ones, I will not go in detail though I disagree in several aspects: intercepting supersonic planes at 1000 km from the carrier is not trivial, simply because area to cover is huge and on-station times increasingly small. You need to now the attack vector, you need to detect the carrier precisely, but due to long range of the Tu-22 / IFR of MiG-31, speed of the carriers and radar horizon this is not easy for a CSG, they don't need to come from one predictable direction only for you to wait them there and you cannot have the whole air wing flying to be where needed to intercept. We still don't know what is the exact range of the involved weapons so a bit more or less range for F-35 will not solve the discussion (for instance it is stated 2000 km for Kinzhal from MiG-31K, which would render your whole effort to calculate the interception pointless). You also seem to count on LPI radar of a F-35 being undetectable for a bomber-sized and accordingly protected plane? Many many details to address and not every and each one of them will be in favour of the carrier all of the time.
    Radar horizon limitation will apply to both side. Tu-22 and Mig-31 also need a way to locate the carrier, this is not the same as attacking stationary target.
    My proposed method doesn't rely on knowing accurately where Tu-22 will be, but rather to make a intangible barrier infront of the carrier so that Tu-22 have to pass through if it want to launch Kh-32 ( Kinzhal is a different case though), whether Tu-22 RWR can detect APG-81 or not, doesn't matter because not all F-35 has to be online, some can keep their radar active and share information through datalink

    Comment

    • FBW
      FBW
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Dec 2011
      • 3140

      LMFS

      Two points:
      1. Reading the above shows that your understanding Of CSG operations is faulty.
      2. Your using the range on a specific strike profile for each variant shown in the SAR report. Very different from Russian manufacterers range claims. In an Air to Air flight profile, add about another 100nm and youll be close.

      Comment

      • LMFS
        Rank 4 Registered User
        • Feb 2018
        • 247

        mig-31bm
        These A2G profiles are 2 x JDAM + 2 x AMRAAM true? Hi-Lo-Hi or rather Hi-Hi-Hi? Ranges and combat radius in real operation are depending on a number of issues and it is not always clear how all these have been chosen and how they would translate to other set of circumstances. That is why I am not going to discuss about 50 nm more or less. We have scarce information as it is logical due to nature of these matters. I prefer looking at the broad capabilities of the different systems, assuming I am not going to know every detail.

        Regarding radar horizon: Tu will not be targeting the carrier with its own radar most probably, but based on naval surveillance data. Both China and Russia have space based assets for this and many other sources of data.
        Intangible barrier: I get your point, mine is the bigger the range of the attacking weapon, the bigger the area to be covered. F-35 is not extremely fast, long ranged (though range is more than decent) and its missiles are not long ranged, much less against planes flying higher and faster than itself. So it is difficult to make this barrier tight, even when the anti-ship missiles would need the carrier going some km inside the defence bubble of the carrier, which is not necessarily the case as seen. But of course this is a very complicated matter and also very case-specific. You may allow the carrier to come closer to shore or not, attack the carrier itself or just the air wing, with SAMs or interceptors. Or maybe down the CMs launched, since they are only subsonic targets. Not considering complexities like subs, other vessels etc etc etc. Only for military professionals and with reserves due to lack of info about the true capabilities and intentions of the opposing side. For me it is enough to make a point: land based assets have big advantages because they are not constrained in number or size as carrier borne or in general naval ones are. And hence carriers are better used against lower level militaries than against peer countries. Not writing them off yet but the level of threat is very high for them right now.

        FBW
        1. I do hope a fleet commander knows more than myself about CSG operations, I am no expert in the matter. But I would not be discussing latest tactics and capabilities online if I were, would I? Can you please explain where is the fault in my understanding that is relevant to the issue at hand?
        2. As said, combat radius is a complex issue, but 100 nm more or less wont cut the case since we don't know them in detail for other involved weapons systems and there are significant additional tactical complexities to take into account. You surely are aware that when handling data, precision and significance are enemies.

        Comment

        • St. John
          Rank 4 Registered User
          • Jan 2018
          • 554

          A task force will generally be using AEW of some kind, which will spot a bomber or MiG-31 a long way off. And an F-35 with a Meteor won't need to get very close to kill them. You also have the issue that the Kh-32 and Kh-47 are not unkillable and likely need some kind of OTH targeting system in place for a 1000km strike, which will likely involve satellites. These can also be shot down and/or jammed, as can the missile's terminal homing radar.

          Comment

          • St. John
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • Jan 2018
            • 554

            Excellent manoeuvring.

            https://fightersweep.com/11927/watch...UABnWZnEbUaFiE

            Comment

            • halloweene
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2012
              • 4105

              Classic J-turn. spectacular for airshows (honestly i love it). Extreme loss of energy.

              Comment

              • panzerfeist1
                Rank 4 Registered User
                • Feb 2018
                • 204

                Got a question on the F-35. Is its Next Generation jammers in pods or is it like an EW suite? Where does each block for each jammer go to on the F-35 since I heard each block upgrade is to jam each certain frequency ranges?

                Comment

                • SpudmanWP
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 5171

                  They are AESA versions of the existing ALQ-99 pods on the Growler. They are not self-contained and need an onboard system that will manage them.
                  "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

                  Comment

                  • panzerfeist1
                    Rank 4 Registered User
                    • Feb 2018
                    • 204

                    thanks Spud for that info.

                    Comment

                    • FBW
                      FBW
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3140

                      They are AESA versions of the existing ALQ-99 pods on the Growler. They are not self-contained and need an onboard system that will manage them
                      Not sure what you are trying to say here Spud.
                      The ALQ-99 jamming pods were modular and components could be swapped out or mixed , the ALQ-249(v)1 shares no commonality with ALQ-99

                      The three NGJ increments were to each have a different pod
                      Increment 1- Raytheon ALQ-249 mid band (LRIP 2020, IOC 2022)
                      Increment 2- (NGJ-LB) Contract award to L3/Northrop/Harris. Low band jammer different pod/architecture than ALQ-249
                      Increment 3- (NGJ-HB) This one is up in the air (unfunded as of yet), possible expansion of ALQ-249 capabilities, or swap out, or possibly a 3rd unique pod.

                      NGJ currently isn't slated for integration on the F-35.
                      Last edited by FBW; 14th February 2019, 15:26.

                      Comment

                      • SpudmanWP
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 5171

                        What I was trying to say is that NGJ pods serve the same function as the ALQ-99s in that they are the transmitters (pointy end) of the jamming system on the Growler.

                        You are correct that they are currently not scheduled for F-35 integration.
                        "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

                        Comment

                        • SolarWarden
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • May 2015
                          • 246

                          F-35 at Red Flag 19-1 is doing its thing.

                          Hill Airmen, F-35 a lethal combo at Red Flag

                          NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. Today, Airmen from the 388th Fighter Wings 4th Fighter Squadron wrapped up flying operations with the F-35A Lightning II in an exponentially more challenging Red Flag.
                          The 4th FS integrated the F-35A into a large, capable Blue Force in diverse missions against an equally capable Red Force. Nearly 3,000 personnel from 39 separate units participated in the exercise, including the U.S. Navy, U.S. Air Force, Royal Air Force and Royal Australian Air Force.
                          The Red Force was made up of hybrid threats, combinations of the most advanced weapons systems out there, meant to replicate near-peer enemies in a large scale conflict. The shift closely aligns with the National Defense Strategy.
                          The first time I came to Red Flag in 2004, our tactics were the same as they had been since the early 1980s. Now, the threat and complexity are at a whole different level, said Col. Joshua Wood, 388th Operations Group commander. Its no longer assumed that we will gain and maintain air superiority. Thats a big shift.
                          Red Flag aggressors encompass the whole spectrum of an adversary force advanced integrated air-defense systems, an adversary air force, cyber-warfare and information operations. Because of these diverse capabilities, many Red Flag missions are flown in contested or denied environments with active electronic attack, communications jamming, and GPS denial.
                          Those situations highlight the fifth-generation capabilities of the F-35. Were still able to operate and be successful. In a lot of cases we have a large role as an integrated quarterback, said Lt. Col. Yosef Morris, 4th Fighter Squadron commander. Our ability to continue to fuse and pass information to the entire package makes every aircraft more survivable.
                          During the first week of Red Flag, the F-35 pilots flew in a larger force of Blue Air in a counter-air mission. More than 60 aggressor aircraft were flying against them, blinding many of the fourth-generation aircraft with robust electronic attack capabilities.
                          Ive never seen anything like it before. Wood said. This is not a mission you want a young pilot flying in. My wingman was a brand new F-35A pilot, seven or eight flights out of training. He gets on the radio and tells an experienced, 3,000-hour pilot in a very capable fourth-generation aircraft. Hey bud, you need to turn around. Youre about to die. Theres a threat off your nose.
                          The young pilot then killed the enemy aircraft and had three more kills in the hour-long mission.
                          Even in this extremely challenging environment, the F-35 didnt have many difficulties doing its job, Wood said. Thats a testament to the pilots training and the capabilities of the jet.
                          One of the most valuable things about this exercise for the 4th Fighter Squadron is the experience it provided younger pilots flying combat missions as part of an integrated force. Thirteen pilots in the squadron have never flown the F-35 in Red Flag, and four of them just graduated pilot training.
                          They say its the most realistic thing to combat, said 1st Lt. Landon Moores, a new F-35A pilot. Its been pretty intense.
                          Red Flag is not a rolling campaign. It is made up of different scenarios that increase in difficulty as the weeks go on. This allows the integrated force to learn how best to capitalize on the strengths and protect the weaknesses of each platform in very specific mission sets.
                          With stealth, the F-35 can get closer to threats than many other aircraft can. Combined with the performance of the fused sensors on the F-35, we can significantly contribute to the majority of the missions, Morris said.
                          The missions arent just 90-minute flights. They require 12-hours of intense planning the day prior, a two hour pre-brief, and then several hours of debriefing after the mission dissecting the outcome and looking for ways to improve.
                          Its not like we just come back and high-five if were successful, Morris said. Could we have done better? Did we have all the resources we needed? Often the brief and debrief is the most valuable part of Red Flag, especially for younger pilots.
                          The squadron brought 12 aircraft and more than 200 Airmen to the three-week exercise pilots, maintainers, intelligence officers, weapons crews, and support personnel, including reservists from the 419th Fighter Wing. Maintainers didnt lose a single sortie to a maintenance ground-abort and had spare aircraft available for every mission.
                          As this aircraft matures, we continue to see it be a significant force-multiplier in a threat-dense environment, Morris said. Red Flag was a success for us and has made our younger pilots more lethal and more confident.


                          http://www.388fw.acc.af.mil/News/Art...PXiiupS45Js9g/

                          Comment

                          • moon_light
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • May 2012
                            • 958

                            Originally posted by SolarWarden View Post
                            F-35 at Red Flag 19-1 is doing its thing.
                            Is there a list of fighters type that joined this Red flag? Any European one?

                            Comment

                            • SpudmanWP
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 5171

                              The best source of units at any Red Flag is here:
                              http://www.dreamlandresort.com/info/flag_units.html

                              Red Flag 19-1: 01/26/2019 - 02/15/2019

                              Role Aircraft Tail Number & Callsign
                              Red Team Air F-16C
                              L-159E
                              A-4N
                              64 Aggressor Squadron, Nellis AFB, NV
                              Draken International, Nellis AFB, NV
                              Draken International, Nellis AFB, NV
                              Blue Team Air F-35A
                              F-22A
                              F-16CM
                              F/A-18E
                              FGR4 Typhoon
                              388th Fighter Wing, 4th FS, Hill AFB, Utah
                              199th FS, Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam, HI
                              20th FW, 55th Fighter Squadron, Shaw AFB, SC
                              VFA-136, NAS Lemoore, CA
                              6 Squadron, RAF, Lossiemouth, UK
                              Interdiction B-52H
                              F/A-18A
                              69th Bomb Squadron, Minot AFB, ND
                              77 Squadron, RAAF Base Williamtown, NSW
                              SEAD F-16CM
                              EA-18G
                              EA-18G
                              20th FW, 79th Fighter Squadron, Shaw AFB, SC
                              VAQ-131, NAS Whidbey Island, WA
                              VAQ-132, NAS Whidbey Island, WA
                              Command & Control E-3B AWACS
                              E-3D AEW
                              E-7 Wedgetail
                              E-8C JSTARS
                              AP-3C Orion
                              RC-135
                              Sentinel R1
                              552d ACW, 960th AACS, Tinker AFB, OK
                              8 Squadron, RAF Waddinton, Lincolnshire, UK
                              2 Squadron, RAAF Base Williamtown, NSW
                              461st ACW, 12th ACCS, Robins AFB, GA
                              10 Squadron, RAAF Base Edinburgh, SA
                              51 Squad, RAF Waddinton, Lincolnshire, UK
                              5 Squadron, RAF Waddinton, Lincolnshire, UK
                              Refueling KC-135R
                              KC-135R
                              KC-135R
                              KC3 Voyager
                              RFTTF, 92d ARW, Fairchild AFB, WA
                              RFTTF, 22d ARW, McConnell AFB, KS
                              6th Air Mobility Wing, McDill AFB, FL
                              10 Squadron, RAF Brize Norton, UK
                              Airlift C-17A 36 squadron, RAAF Base Amberley, Australia
                              Search & Rescue HC-130J
                              MH-60S
                              79th RQS, Pope AFB, NC
                              HSC-23, NAS North Island, CA
                              "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

                              Comment

                              • halloweene
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jan 2012
                                • 4105

                                Impatiently waiting what will in the future happen to overvitamined F-1C during those red flag.

                                Comment

                                • TomcatViP
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Nov 2011
                                  • 5865

                                  +1

                                  Comment

                                  • St. John
                                    Rank 4 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2018
                                    • 554

                                    The red air team is screwed.

                                    Comment

                                    • FBW
                                      FBW
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Dec 2011
                                      • 3140

                                      The red air team is screwed.
                                      if it were a heads up competition. Red air can be handicapped with intel, data, simulated weapons, sensors, numbers through regeneration. From reports, Red Air exacts a steep learning curve on novice red flag participants as difficulty ramps up. Also, the sides are fluid depending on the mission set and parameters. Draken and Tac Air support are dedicated aggressor contractors filling in for the deactivation of aggressor squadrons (besides 64th), they are pros.

                                      Comment

                                      • garryA
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Dec 2015
                                        • 1107

                                        No more aggressor F-15C?

                                        Comment

                                        • SpudmanWP
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2009
                                          • 5171

                                          They were in the Dec2018 Red Flag..
                                          "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

                                          Comment

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