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2019 F-35 News and Discussion

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  • FBW
    FBW
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Dec 2011
    • 3140

    Not sure how what I wrote could be construed as hyper-defensive. Just stating facts. I certainly dont take any of this personally. Perhaps your projecting, or the language barrier leads to misunderstanding my direct communication style.

    Anyway, the remarks from Angelo Tofalo do constitute a 180 from the Five Star movements election promise. The program of record has not changed, only a hint of delivery slowdown possible.

    Comment

    • Marcellogo
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jun 2014
      • 1787

      Angelo Tofalo is , for what I know just an undersecretary i.e. not someone really important.
      I have the impression they want to delay the choice the most as they can and talk about it even less.
      Delaying is a smart move IMHO, FOC configuration and full rate production is near and we can wait for them.

      And obviously, I support F-35 acquisition by my own country, not because I think it's something extraordinary or out of this world at all as LM propaganda suggest, just that what we need is a strike aircraft as a substitute for Tornado and AMX and F-35 is an excellent choice for this role.

      About communication mode I personally use formulas like IMHO , AFAIK , in my opinion... to specify it's a personal opinion and not some God written truth.
      Last edited by Marcellogo; 3rd February 2019, 20:20.

      Comment

      • Sintra
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Aug 2007
        • 3818

        Originally posted by halloweene View Post
        So let's sum up. Germany is out, and Uk dubious didt hey get the notice about low life expectancy?
        Nothing to do with "low life expectancy".
        Germany (and Spain) have a Typhoon assembly line... And the 25th has not exactly made things easy for a German Minister to go into the Bundestag stating that the biggest military order for the next decade will be contracted with LM (or Boeing). And while Phoon cant land on QEII, HM MOD does not need 138 JCAs for two front line FJ Sqns, one OCU and a handfull of training spares in the States. Unless the T1s Phoons are replaced by JCAs in the thirties theres no need for so many Daves .
        Last edited by Sintra; 4th February 2019, 14:14.
        sigpic

        Comment

        • halloweene
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2012
          • 4105

          I'm afraid since Germany ruled out F-35. Please the exact terms of the new Aix la Chapelle agreement, specially the part about mutual defence.Clearly written "by any means" to me it means that germany is now nder french nuke umbrella.

          Comment

          • St. John
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • Jan 2018
            • 554

            You're not going to start singing Rihanna are you?

            Comment

            • halloweene
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2012
              • 4105

              You're not going to start singing Rihanna are you?

              Next?

              Comment

              • St. John
                Rank 4 Registered User
                • Jan 2018
                • 554

                Under my Umbrella.

                Comment

                • halloweene
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jan 2012
                  • 4105

                  Last time i heard about F-35 umbrella was whenegyptian pilots got fire solutions above Liban. Of course, F-35 were as usually using RF lenses so it doese not have so much sense.
                  PS due to present international relationships i'd preer an ASMP/A umbrella to a b61.

                  Comment

                  • TomcatViP
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Nov 2011
                    • 5865

                    "Ave, Imperator, morituri te salutant"

                    Citation from an ecstatic umbrella pilot...

                    B/w, Hallow do you have a direct reference to this in the Branco-German agreement?
                    Last edited by TomcatViP; 4th February 2019, 18:58.

                    Comment

                    • halloweene
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2012
                      • 4105

                      The complete text is available on officialsite. I'd sinderley dig it for you tonight, but for many reasons i'm exhausted.

                      Comment

                      • TomcatViP
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Nov 2011
                        • 5865

                        No problem. Thank you Hallow.

                        Comment

                        • TomcatViP
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Nov 2011
                          • 5865

                          Why Germany should reconsider the F-35 participation - an opinion read from DefenseNews.com:

                          German F-35 decision sacrifices NATO capability for Franco-German industrial cooperation



                          As stated before there is ample room for both planes in Germany. The FCAS and the F-35 are not mutually exclusive unless in the mouth of the most radicals sparking the defense debate as if it was a wheat field. They don't care of the sacrifice that their position will impair on those that invariably will stay behind: they would rather burn it to the ground no matter the consequences.



                          Notice that I am strongly in favor of a bunch of Growler in Europe. So, at the end, there is still hope for something.
                          Last edited by TomcatViP; 8th February 2019, 13:21.

                          Comment

                          • Sintra
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Aug 2007
                            • 3818

                            Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                            Why Germany should reconsider the F-35 participation - an opinion read from DefenseNews.com:

                            German F-35 decision sacrifices NATO capability for Franco-German industrial cooperation
                            KC-X
                            Last edited by Sintra; 8th February 2019, 13:52.
                            sigpic

                            Comment

                            • TomcatViP
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Nov 2011
                              • 5865

                              Do You mean it's a retribution for denying Airbus a definitive win with the MRTT at the time?
                              Last edited by TomcatViP; 8th February 2019, 21:04.

                              Comment

                              • XB-70
                                Rank 3 Registered User
                                • May 2018
                                • 187

                                As stated before there is ample room for both planes in Germany. The FCAS and the F-35 are not mutually exclusive unless in the mouth of the most radicals sparking the defense debate as if it was a wheat field. They don't care of the sacrifice that their position will impair on those that invariably will stay behind: they would rather burn it to the ground no matter the consequences.
                                Not really. The main strengths of the F-35 are its intelligence gathering and coordination abilities and then its stealth - enabling one to safely strike targets in protected airspace. As the Germans are not as involved with bombing militants and failed dictators all over the world, they don't need the strike capability so much right now. The intelligence and coordination would be useful. But I guess they decided to give their own industry some protection and long term funding so that they can make their (joint) FCAS.

                                I like the F-35. Nevertheless, the article does oversell it. Right now, if you want to blast the heck out of someone then you need stealth assets. If all you need is a deterrence function then a good legacy platform will do well enough. This will be the case for the next 10-12 years still.

                                Comment

                                • TomcatViP
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Nov 2011
                                  • 5865

                                  Originally posted by XB-70
                                  I guess they decided to give their own industry some protection and long term funding so that they can make their (joint) FCAS.
                                  For a country hosting some of the most appraised Automotive brands, it's a bit funny to see them applying socialism to their Defense industry.


                                  I like the F-35. Nevertheless, the article does oversell it. Right now, if you want to blast the heck out of someone then you need stealth assets. If all you need is a deterrence function then a good legacy platform will do well enough. This will be the case for the next 10-12 years still.
                                  So much that when French Strategic forces simulates a long range strike, the return leg is... not even part to the training mission. And no one in the free press (remember) say a word.
                                  When you or your kids are not in the line its so much easy to dust-off the causality rates.
                                  Last edited by TomcatViP; 8th February 2019, 17:20.

                                  Comment

                                  • XB-70
                                    Rank 3 Registered User
                                    • May 2018
                                    • 187

                                    ...it's a bit funny to see them applying socialism to their Defense industry.
                                    Why? All countries operate their defense apparatus off of a socialist system. There is a lot of libertarian theory out there on how to operate defense purely off of a private property based market process, nevertheless the fact is that all nations currently use something of a "from each according to their ability and to each according to their need" approach. (This is true with draft/selective service, setting budgets, who gets contracts, etc.) It's a throwback from mankind's tribal beginnings.

                                    When you or your kids are not in the line its so much easy to dust-off the causality rates.
                                    You don't understand deterrence. As I said, if you are looking to start a conflict then you need stealth assets to avoid casualties. If you just want to provide enough punch back so that nobody attacks you (deterrence) because it would be financially prohibitive for them to do so, or cause them too many casualties, or be political suicide, or (win or lose) the outcome would leave that power vulnerable to other nations, etc. then there are no casualties. They don't attack you!

                                    So much that when French Strategic forces simulates a long range strike, the return leg is... not even part to the training mission.
                                    God forbid that ever happen, but should it then there won't be a lot of homes to come back to. And some that do return home will just watch their families die a slow death. Thankfully, deterrence seems to work. Even evil people fear their own death.
                                    Last edited by XB-70; 8th February 2019, 17:59.

                                    Comment

                                    • FBW
                                      FBW
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Dec 2011
                                      • 3140

                                      These recent posts stray pretty far from the thread topic and cross into morals and policy. Wouldn't it be great if there was a section on this forum to air such things? We could call it "General Discussion" and separate it from the aviation forum section.

                                      Comment

                                      • halloweene
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2012
                                        • 4105

                                        i can only agree. Interesting discussion as EU andUSA ppl have a very different view on what is "socialism"

                                        Comment

                                        • djcross
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2000
                                          • 5381

                                          Originally posted by XB-70 View Post
                                          You don't understand deterrence. As I said, if you are looking to start a conflict then you need stealth assets to avoid casualties. If you just want to provide enough punch back so that nobody attacks you (deterrence) because it would be financially prohibitive for them to do so, or cause them too many casualties, or be political suicide, or (win or lose) the outcome would leave that power vulnerable to other nations, etc. then there are no casualties. They don't attack you!
                                          A great example of lack of understanding of "deterrence"...

                                          South Korea and Japan did not buy F-35s because they want to become aggressors. They bought them as deterrence against a neighbor who might start to believe that it could hide behind hundreds SAMs and AIs and dictate its will, with no recourse but submission by South Korea and Japan. Stealthy F-35 changes that dynamic since it provides a measure of immunity against the SAMs and AIs, while providing the ability to prosecute heavily defended targets using conventional munitions. Stealthy F-35 is a deterrent capability.

                                          Comment

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