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By: 5th December 2018 at 18:16 Permalink
-It's not a mystery that french bashing is your favorite hobby.
By: 6th December 2018 at 00:05 Permalink
-I wouldn't call selling Mirage F1's for over $5.3 million a piece a giveaway. It's a super old design. You either sell them cheap for a little money and mainly just to get them off your hands or you pay to put them in the junkyard.
By: 6th December 2018 at 00:15 Permalink - Edited 6th December 2018 at 00:38
-I would like to think that the Argies would have been pleased to get some at this price...
Not mentioning some nations on the African continent.
The latest F1-C were phased-out while still having a good potential.
ATAK plans to get 9000h per year out of them (half of them used for spare) and upgrades their systems on a quite remarkable way...
By: 6th December 2018 at 03:09 Permalink - Edited 6th December 2018 at 03:09
-I wouldn't be surprised that even Rafale added to this bazaar. . After all French practically stop upgrading M2K to get not fully functional Rafale.
now they are going to built 6G fighter with a country that that has rejected digital tax, euro budget and dithering on basic funding.
Angela Merkel's apparent successor questions Nato spending targets
By: 6th December 2018 at 08:40 Permalink
-The Argentinians already struggle to pay for 5 used Super Etendard Modernise they ordered for $2 million each earlier this year.
The latest F1-C were retired 15 years ago. They were largely obsolescent and mainly used for type conversion training.
A lot of freshly retired airframe is always kept in storage for sell to potential foreign customers.
So as usual, TomcatVIP, you're way off the mark, talking about stuff you don't know about.
By: 6th December 2018 at 09:53 Permalink - Edited 7th December 2018 at 18:45
-OPIT your usual rambling to wage discontent is as much a cheap bargain as this is.
63 Mirage F1, dont 7 F1B et 56 en version CT/CR. Parmi ces appareils, entre 40 et 45 appareils vont être remis en état de vol, tandis que le restant, une vingtaine, seront cannibalisés pour utiliser les pièces de rechange.
[...]
Sur ce stock de Mirage F1, la moitié est classée en catégorie RSD1 (retiré du service). Il s’agit d’appareils qui peuvent reprendre quasi immédiatement les airs, conservés dans un environnement adapté et encore sous la responsabilité des états-majors et de la DGA. La seconde moitié est classée RSD2. Ils sont gérés par la SIMMAD, ils peuvent être cannibalisés et du travail est demandé pour leur refaire reprendre les airs.--------------Translated by myself since shouting ain't as fun as a comprehensive talk it seems -----------------
63 Mirage F1, including 7 F1B and 56 in CT / CR version. Among those planes, between 40 and 45 aircraft will be reinstated, while the remaining twenty will be cannibalized to use the spare parts.
[...]
Of this stock of Mirage F1, half is categorized as RSD1 (just retired of service). These are planes that can almost immediately be returned to flight having been kept in a suitable environment and are still under the responsibility of the DGA. The second half is categorized as RSD2. They are managed by the SIMMAD service, they can be cannibalized and some work is required to make them flyable again.
With 9000h being planned by ATAK per year (flying half their fleet), you have a significant flight tempo* that won't shy against what the F1 have seen during their OP life in France
But thank you for the SE sale. I had forgotten it and would add this to the list.
Source (in French but a nice read):
http://www.defens-aero.com/2018/07/l...-francais.html
*9000/63/2~=9000/30=300hr per year per airframe
By: 6th December 2018 at 15:19 Permalink - Edited 6th December 2018 at 15:20
-Pretty common stuff, Draken air bought 22 F-1´s from the Spanish for almost nothing, same for their Cheetah´s, the Marine Corps bought RAF Harriers for a beer and a bit of money, etc.
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/drak...e-f1-fighters/
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-15876745
Cheers
By: 6th December 2018 at 20:45 Permalink - Edited 7th December 2018 at 19:07
-[USER="27714"]PhilipG[/USER] : It's something that I have been looking at obviously and there is zero clue for that.
F1 are specifically to be maintained via the Belgian network
SE are furnished with spare parts and, as airframe have been in service in Argentina for decades, the knowledge basis will be in country.
Jags are to be cannibalized for spares
Pumas contract only have paid maintenance for 160m€ but with no details on which specific platforms (3 diiferent types - two are modern type to be manufactured for that contract). But regarding the Pumas it's not like France is still the only place where to source H225 spare parts...
Only Mirages 2000 seems to fit the bill. But then India has been operating M2K for decades and probably won't need much more support from France for only a couple of extra airframe.
[USER="15685"]Sintra[/USER] : you didn't hear me on that subject before, right? Especially when the first contract were issued... We are now past 120 aircraft in 17th month. This is unheard until now. And once again, no call for tender etc... Nothing. Half of those aircraft were "sold" for the grand total of less than 83M€ (~90M$)!
By: 7th December 2018 at 16:29 Permalink
-Tomcat, you know SABCA is owned by DA don't you?
By: 7th December 2018 at 18:21 Permalink
-Obviously. But it still doesn't fill the hypothesis brought forward by PhilipG that I corrected with more details.
By: 11th December 2018 at 19:20 Permalink
-Is there a real question here ?
By: 11th December 2018 at 22:25 Permalink
-I was wondering the same..what is the real purpose of this thread?
By: 12th December 2018 at 20:30 Permalink
-
I wouldn't be surprised that even Rafale added to this bazaar. . After all French practically stop upgrading M2K to get not fully functional Rafale.
now they are going to built 6G fighter with a country that that has rejected digital tax, euro budget and dithering on basic funding.
How can anyone reasonable write such BS?
By: 14th December 2018 at 21:09 Permalink - Edited 14th December 2018 at 21:10
-I have to say the slant of your argument is pretty odd TomcatViP, I would think the circumstances of those sales and gifts would be obvious. As PhilipG rightly points out there is the issue of Soft Power to consider as well beyond pure economics, from my part you also need to consider the state of the used Fighter market as well. So pick up each point made:
- 63 Mirage F1 for 300m€ (4.8m€/airframe) all of them supported in Belgium (no French revenue) - ATAK private to contractor (USA) - see here: http://www.defens-aero.com/2018/07/l...-francais.html
I gather the argument you are making is France are not making enough money from this sale? The thing is whilst the Mirage F-1 is a good aircraft it is has fared poorly on the international surplus market, France and a number of other F-1 operators have spent years attempting to sell surplus F-1 to no avail. Remember the F-1 exists in a world where there are surplus F-16 and Su-27 available at very attractive prices, also very attractive credit lines can be extended for new build fighters. The Mirage F-1 is just not that attractive to buyers when what else can be purchased is considered. ATAK on the other hand are a company that want a high performance type but without all the complex systems, for them the F-1 with all the spares is highly attractive and for the French being able to shift their fleet plus all the spares in bulk is fantastic especially when it means a 300m€ return to the treasury! It saves the cost of scrapping them!
- 31 Jaguar Free of charges (+2 free from OMAN and 2 twin seat paid to UK 350k€) - Indian Air Force
- 2xM2K trainer for free - Indian Air Force
- 21 H225 paid at best 3.5 m€ each (part of a 550m€ deal including 10 New H145, 24H125 and 160m€ for maintenance) - Ukrainian government - see here: https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...rs-785142.html
- 5 Super Etendard for 12.55M€ (5 Super Etendards, along with a simulator, eight spare engines, and a large batch of spares and tooling including barracuda jammer) - 3 directly put into service, 2 used as spare to regenerate airframe already in service - Argentinian Air Force - see here: https://www.aerotime.aero/clement.ch...rd-acquisition
By: 14th December 2018 at 22:54 Permalink
-- [quote]
- 21 H225 paid at best 3.5 m€ each (part of a 550m€ deal including 10 New H145, 24H125 and 160m€ for maintenance) - Ukrainian government - see here: https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...rs-785142.html
I don't know the details of this deal but the Ukraine needs Helicopters and it certainly thumbs a nose at Russia so I would put this down as for the Geopolitical benefits and certainly there is no harm in keeping the factory busy.
[/quote]
we don't know Ukraine need those helicopters. but one thing is clear. once Ukranain pilots and maintainance are trained on it. they will likely want to get there jobs in other countries where salaries much higher and new crew will need training constantly. its already showing up in deindustrialization on top of debt to buy foreign helicopters.
[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/522232.htmlMotor Sich sees 61% fall in consolidated net profit in H1 2018
[LEFT][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Georgia][SIZE=16px]According to a company report, its consolidated net revenue in H1 2018 fell by 14.78%, to UAH 5.811 billion.
By: 14th December 2018 at 23:04 Permalink
-I have family in Ukraine JSR including those who are members of their Armed forces, they NEED helicopters!
By: 15th December 2018 at 05:13 Permalink
-
Ryanair seeks to hire more Ukrainians: pilots, stewards and 250 IT specialists
By: 15th December 2018 at 14:47 Permalink - Edited 15th December 2018 at 15:42
-My dear Fedaykin,
It's sad that your judgement was eclipsed by the sour odd-saying of some here that Tom is bad and anti-whatever. Shall I remind you that we are here on a free forum where analysis and compiled information to start a discussion is the core of our micro "society". This is all about Keypub forum. So I am sad that an old member as you are will oddly try to throw that at my face pridely.
The point of this thread is only to compile information we have on the subject of Gov Macron giveaway airframe and how oddly cheap are all those sales.
----------------------------------
To give some arguments at your point, please remind that the Mirage F-1 were said to be offered to Argentina at 20M$ per airframe not so long ago (I even think I can remember how you seemed then quite enthusiastic at this idea):
The dispute has allowed the resurgence of a proposal from France to supply a squadron of Mirage F-1, at a unit cost of US$ 23 million, but fully equipped and five years of logistic support.
For the H225, the French ALAT (the one force in France that uses most of the Puma) has a 33% availability today. One of the worst of its (long and prestigious) history. I am sure that a fresh influx of (said so) low used airframe would have been appreciated by the service. Last but not least, the fact that the Pumas have been over-used by both the Fr and British army should put the cost of any spare parts rather high.
It's the same thing with the Jags. The fact that only one nation is in need for such airframe should put their cost on the up-side. Everybody acquainted with market rules should understand this quite easily... Especially when this flows of available part will compete directly with Fr national industry (that have been contracted for this to the point of raising a controversy) or were to be sold at an unknown price.
Regarding the M2K dual seat trainers are hard to get since not as many were built. This make them having a value, especially when AdlA will keep their Mirage longer that what was planned initially.
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Last but not least I perfectly understand the Soft power argument to promote the image of the French democracy around the world (PhilipG) but when you give away 120 airframe for more or less 90M$, it doesn't makes any sense... Especially when payment for the priciest of them, let's remember, 300M$ for the full fleet of just decommissioned modern airframe, is routed via a single Freelancer in Switzerland
My 2 cents.
EDIT:
I should mention the fact that I have been advocating the idea of selling the F-1 to ATAC and selling some Jags for cheap to India to help them in managing their fleet well before the events. Oddly as it seems, this has even been discussed before here as it is, with you ,my dear Feydakin, on some case, opposing my arguments.
I should probably look at how I could offer you a decent internet browser for Christmas ;)
Posts: 5,905
By: TomcatViP - 5th December 2018 at 16:17 - Edited 17th September 2021 at 10:25
It's a mystery to me how French could have gave away so much aircraft at such a low cost since 2017 and the beginning of the Macron government. Here is a short list in chronological order of all donated aiframes so far with when relevant a link to the deal as a reference:
*63 Mirage F1 for 300m€ (4.8m€/airframe) all of them supported in Belgium (no French revenue) - ATAK private contractor (USA) - see here: http://www.defens-aero.com/2018/07/l...-francais.html
*31 Jaguar Free of charges (+2 free from OMAN and 2 twin seat paid to UK 350k€) - Indian Air Force
*2xM2K trainer for free - Indian Air Force
*21 H225 paid at best 3.5 m€ each (part of a 550m€ deal including 10 New H145, 24H125 and 160m€ for maintenance) - Ukrainian government - see here: https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...rs-785142.html
*5 Super Etendard for 12.55M€ (5 Super Etendards, along with a simulator, eight spare engines, and a large batch of spares and tooling including barracuda jammer) - 3 directly put into service, 2 used as spare to regenerate airframe already in service - Argentinian Air Force - see here: https://www.aerotime.aero/clement.ch...rd-acquisition
* 12 Rafale for Greece at 400M€ ($0.5B) that were just upgraded to F3R standard for €1B on top of a total unit cost of roughly €160M - F3R achieved IOC in December 2019**
*12 Rafale in similar conditions for Croatia
* 2 A340 ex-FrAF airframe with b/w 60 to 80k flight hours sold for the jaw dropping asking price of 80K€ each!!
Both planes went finally for 400k€ each (less than 1M€ for both!!)
https://encheres-domaine.gouv.fr/hermes/ventes-passees/313
*24 M2K for 27M€ (1.125M€ per airframe) :
Out of the 24 fighters, 13 are in complete condition with engine and airframe intact with eight of them (nearly half a squadron) ready to fly after servicing. The remaining 11 fighters are partially complete but with fuel tanks and ejection seats, which will be scavenged to secure parts for IAF’s two existing squadrons of the fighter
So far, we have a total of 159 airframe "sold" for 1213M€* (60% of that total sold for under 100M€ in total ) in 52 months**... If you have planned lately to buy yourself a Cessna, the great aircraft bazaar is still open to date ;)
EDIT 1: Added SE deal with Argentinia
EDIT 2: added Rafale gift to Greece
Edit 3: added gov owned A340s sold at a bargain price.
EDIT 4: added last batch of M2K for India
* a 3.25M$ price tag per aircraft on average ! ** 7 airframes offered per month dwarfing most of the sale performances of their national industry (military)!
** https://theaviationist.com/2019/12/16/upgraded-rafale-f3-r-achieves-ini…