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The great aircraft bazaar: French donated airframes since 2017

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  • TomcatViP
    Rank 5 Registered User

    The great aircraft bazaar: French donated airframes since 2017

    It's a mystery to me how French could have gave away so much aircraft at such a low cost since 2017 and the beginning of the Macron government. Here is a short list in chronological order of all donated aiframes so far with when relevant a link to the deal as a reference:
    • 31 Jaguar Free of charges (+2 free from OMAN and 2 twin seat paid to UK 350k€) - Indian Air Force
    • 2xM2K trainer for free - Indian Air Force
    • 5 Super Etendard for 12.55M€ (5 Super Etendards, along with a simulator, eight spare engines, and a large batch of spares and tooling including barracuda jammer) - 3 directly put into service, 2 used as spare to regenerate airframe already in service - Argentinian Air Force - see here: https://www.aerotime.aero/clement.ch...rd-acquisition


    So far, we have a total of 123 airframe "sold" for 382M€* (50% of them sold for under 82M€ in total ) in 17 months**...

    If you have planned lately to buy yourself a Cessna, the great aircraft bazaar is still open to date



    EDIT 1:
    Added SE deal with Argentinia

    * a 3.25M$ price tag per aircraft on average !
    ** 7 airframes offered per month dwarfing most of the sale performances of their national industry (military)!
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 6th December 2018, 12:14.
  • OPIT
    Rank 5 Registered User

    #2
    It's not a mystery that french bashing is your favorite hobby.

    Comment

    • XB-70
      Rank 3 Registered User

      #3
      I wouldn't call selling Mirage F1's for over $5.3 million a piece a giveaway. It's a super old design. You either sell them cheap for a little money and mainly just to get them off your hands or you pay to put them in the junkyard.

      Comment

      • TomcatViP
        Rank 5 Registered User

        #4
        I would like to think that the Argies would have been pleased to get some at this price...
        Not mentioning some nations on the African continent.
        The latest F1-C were phased-out while still having a good potential.
        ATAK plans to get 9000h per year out of them (half of them used for spare) and upgrades their systems on a quite remarkable way...
        Last edited by TomcatViP; 6th December 2018, 00:38.

        Comment

        • JSR
          JSR
          Rank 5 Registered User

          #5
          I wouldn't be surprised that even Rafale added to this bazaar. . After all French practically stop upgrading M2K to get not fully functional Rafale.
          now they are going to built 6G fighter with a country that that has rejected digital tax, euro budget and dithering on basic funding.


          Angela Merkel's apparent successor questions Nato spending targets

          Comment

          • OPIT
            Rank 5 Registered User

            #6
            The Argentinians already struggle to pay for 5 used Super Etendard Modernise they ordered for $2 million each earlier this year.
            The latest F1-C were retired 15 years ago. They were largely obsolescent and mainly used for type conversion training.
            A lot of freshly retired airframe is always kept in storage for sell to potential foreign customers.

            So as usual, TomcatVIP, you're way off the mark, talking about stuff you don't know about.

            Comment

            • TomcatViP
              Rank 5 Registered User

              #7
              OPIT your usual rambling to wage discontent is as much a cheap bargain as this is.

              Originally posted by Since you are such a reactive participant to this thread, I'll let you do the translation for all of us
              63 Mirage F1, dont 7 F1B et 56 en version CT/CR. Parmi ces appareils, entre 40 et 45 appareils vont être remis en état de vol, tandis que le restant, une vingtaine, seront cannibalisés pour utiliser les pièces de rechange.
              [...]
              Sur ce stock de Mirage F1, la moitié est classée en catégorie RSD1 (retiré du service). Il s’agit d’appareils qui peuvent reprendre quasi immédiatement les airs, conservés dans un environnement adapté et encore sous la responsabilité des états-majors et de la DGA. La seconde moitié est classée RSD2. Ils sont gérés par la SIMMAD, ils peuvent être cannibalisés et du travail est demandé pour leur refaire reprendre les airs.

              --------------Translated by myself since shouting ain't as fun as a comprehensive talk it seems -----------------
              63 Mirage F1, including 7 F1B and 56 in CT / CR version. Among those planes, between 40 and 45 aircraft will be reinstated, while the remaining twenty will be cannibalized to use the spare parts.
              [...]
              Of this stock of Mirage F1, half is categorized as RSD1 (just retired of service). These are planes that can almost immediately be returned to flight having been kept in a suitable environment and are still under the responsibility of the DGA. The second half is categorized as RSD2. They are managed by the SIMMAD service, they can be cannibalized and some work is required to make them flyable again.

              With 9000h being planned by ATAK per year (flying half their fleet), you have a significant flight tempo* that won't shy against what the F1 have seen during their OP life in France

              But thank you for the SE sale. I had forgotten it and would add this to the list.


              Source (in French but a nice read):
              http://www.defens-aero.com/2018/07/l...-francais.html

              *9000/63/2~=9000/30=300hr per year per airframe
              Last edited by TomcatViP; 7th December 2018, 18:45.

              Comment

              • Sintra
                Rank 5 Registered User

                #8
                Pretty common stuff, Draken air bought 22 F-1´s from the Spanish for almost nothing, same for their Cheetah´s, the Marine Corps bought RAF Harriers for a beer and a bit of money, etc.

                https://theaviationgeekclub.com/drak...e-f1-fighters/
                https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-15876745

                Cheers
                sigpic

                Comment

                • PhilipG
                  Rank 5 Registered User

                  #9
                  By donating the airframes to another country surely the French or whoever are monetising these planes that are surplus to requirements. Training packages for the air crew and maintainers, continued business for the consumables supply chain. Surely this is a better outcome for the public purse than bringing in a JCB to scrap them?

                  Comment

                  • TomcatViP
                    Rank 5 Registered User

                    #10
                    PhilipG : It's something that I have been looking at obviously and there is zero clue for that.

                    F1 are specifically to be maintained via the Belgian network
                    SE are furnished with spare parts and, as airframe have been in service in Argentina for decades, the knowledge basis will be in country.
                    Jags are to be cannibalized for spares

                    Pumas contract only have paid maintenance for 160m€ but with no details on which specific platforms (3 diiferent types - two are modern type to be manufactured for that contract). But regarding the Pumas it's not like France is still the only place where to source H225 spare parts...

                    Only Mirages 2000 seems to fit the bill. But then India has been operating M2K for decades and probably won't need much more support from France for only a couple of extra airframe.

                    Sintra : you didn't hear me on that subject before, right? Especially when the first contract were issued... We are now past 120 aircraft in 17th month. This is unheard until now. And once again, no call for tender etc... Nothing. Half of those aircraft were "sold" for the grand total of less than 83M€ (~90M$)!
                    Last edited by TomcatViP; 7th December 2018, 19:07.

                    Comment

                    • halloweene
                      Rank 5 Registered User

                      #11
                      Tomcat, you know SABCA is owned by DA don't you?

                      Comment

                      • TomcatViP
                        Rank 5 Registered User

                        #12
                        Obviously. But it still doesn't fill the hypothesis brought forward by PhilipG that I corrected with more details.

                        Comment

                        • PhilipG
                          Rank 5 Registered User

                          #13
                          Glad to be corrected, obviously the "Donation" of surplus aircraft etc could also be seen as an extension of Soft Power.

                          Comment

                          • glitter
                            Rank 5 Registered User

                            #14
                            Is there a real question here ?

                            Comment

                            • BlackArcher
                              Rank 5 Registered User

                              #15
                              I was wondering the same..what is the real purpose of this thread?

                              Comment

                              • EC 5/25 Corsair
                                Rank 5 Registered User

                                #16
                                I wouldn't be surprised that even Rafale added to this bazaar. . After all French practically stop upgrading M2K to get not fully functional Rafale.
                                now they are going to built 6G fighter with a country that that has rejected digital tax, euro budget and dithering on basic funding.
                                How can anyone reasonable write such BS?

                                Comment

                                • Fedaykin
                                  Fueled by Tea

                                  #17
                                  I have to say the slant of your argument is pretty odd TomcatViP, I would think the circumstances of those sales and gifts would be obvious. As PhilipG rightly points out there is the issue of Soft Power to consider as well beyond pure economics, from my part you also need to consider the state of the used Fighter market as well. So pick up each point made:
                                  I gather the argument you are making is France are not making enough money from this sale? The thing is whilst the Mirage F-1 is a good aircraft it is has fared poorly on the international surplus market, France and a number of other F-1 operators have spent years attempting to sell surplus F-1 to no avail. Remember the F-1 exists in a world where there are surplus F-16 and Su-27 available at very attractive prices, also very attractive credit lines can be extended for new build fighters. The Mirage F-1 is just not that attractive to buyers when what else can be purchased is considered. ATAK on the other hand are a company that want a high performance type but without all the complex systems, for them the F-1 with all the spares is highly attractive and for the French being able to shift their fleet plus all the spares in bulk is fantastic especially when it means a 300m€ return to the treasury! It saves the cost of scrapping them!
                                  • 31 Jaguar Free of charges (+2 free from OMAN and 2 twin seat paid to UK 350k€) - Indian Air Force
                                  The only nation left operating the Jaguar is India and like the F-1 the chance of selling them on elsewhere is slim beyond companies like ATAK. France has significant interest in selling advanced arms to India it being a lucrative market, the Soft Power of making the gesture of this gift that will help India continue operate the type for many more years is highly valuable to the French.
                                  • 2xM2K trainer for free - Indian Air Force
                                  Like the F-1 the Mirage 2000 has not had that much success in the surplus market albeit that might change as France makes more available as the Rafale takes on more of its roles. Just the same as the Jaguar gift this has Geopolitical advantages to France.I don't know the details of this deal but the Ukraine needs Helicopters and it certainly thumbs a nose at Russia so I would put this down as for the Geopolitical benefits and certainly there is no harm in keeping the factory busy.
                                  • 5 Super Etendard for 12.55M€ (5 Super Etendards, along with a simulator, eight spare engines, and a large batch of spares and tooling including barracuda jammer) - 3 directly put into service, 2 used as spare to regenerate airframe already in service - Argentinian Air Force - see here: https://www.aerotime.aero/clement.ch...rd-acquisition
                                  Put simply this was a time limited deal and it isn't yet certain that it will go through considering the Argentine defence budget. There is all but zero chance that France would find any other buyer and selling a simulator, spares and a few airframes will return more money to the French treasury than scrapping the lot.
                                  Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

                                  Comment

                                  • JSR
                                    JSR
                                    Rank 5 Registered User

                                    #18
                                  I don't know the details of this deal but the Ukraine needs Helicopters and it certainly thumbs a nose at Russia so I would put this down as for the Geopolitical benefits and certainly there is no harm in keeping the factory busy.
                                  we don't know Ukraine need those helicopters. but one thing is clear. once Ukranain pilots and maintainance are trained on it. they will likely want to get there jobs in other countries where salaries much higher and new crew will need training constantly. its already showing up in deindustrialization on top of debt to buy foreign helicopters.

                                  https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/522232.html
                                  Motor Sich sees 61% fall in consolidated net profit in H1 2018
                                  According to a company report, its consolidated net revenue in H1 2018 fell by 14.78%, to UAH 5.811 billion.

                                  Comment

                                  • Fedaykin
                                    Fueled by Tea

                                    #19
                                    I have family in Ukraine JSR including those who are members of their Armed forces, they NEED helicopters!
                                    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

                                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

                                    Comment

                                    • JSR
                                      JSR
                                      Rank 5 Registered User

                                      #20
                                      . remember your opinion about Chinese technology based on Chinese relative. I mentioned those helicopters . the are not sufficiently protected for armed forces nor they reliable for Ukranian budget. Ukraine situation is very similar like Japan. https://www.kyivpost.com/business/ryanair-seeks-hire-ukrainians-pilots-stewards-250-specialists.html
                                      Ryanair seeks to hire more Ukrainians: pilots, stewards and 250 IT specialists


                                      Comment

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