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  • Sintra
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Aug 2007
    • 3818

    They already produce the GE F110. Throw some paint at it, make whatever improvents they are able to, clone whatever hardware comes from the States. "Presto" a fully indigenous fighter engine in eight years.

    sigpic

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    • Bayar
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Oct 2014
      • 813

      Originally posted by XB-70 View Post
      Sintra - I've long predicted that it will basically be an F110 equivalent with some newer fabrication methods such as blisks. And there is still no way that they are going to do it in just 8 years.
      The TR-M Engine preliminary design has already been finalized and looks nothing like the F110. The F110 engine can hardly be considered a "next generation" engine with IR Reduction technology.



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      The TR-M will be based on an experimental engine core design that was released to the public by TUSAS Engine Industries a few years ago.

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      Last edited by Bayar; 13th March 2019, 21:36.

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      • Bayar
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Oct 2014
        • 813

        Originally posted by FBW View Post

        That's one way to put a brave face on Rolls-Royce pulling out of the project.
        Roll-Royce has only withdrawn from the tender for the development of an indigenous engine- as it does not want to share IP with the Qatari business partner in the Turkish program.

        Rolls-Royce has not pulled out from its partnership with KALE Aero for the development of the interim and alternative engine for the TF-X. Turkey always intended to have two engine options for the TF-X. One for itself and one ITAR free engine for export markets.

        Kale Group: No hurdle in partnership with Rolls-Royce in fighter jet project

        DAILY SABAH
        ISTANBUL
        Published 06.03.2019 00:30
        https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2...er-jet-project

        Turkey's Kale Group denied allegations that British Rolls-Royce had downsized the scope of the work it carried out with the group on developing the engine of Turkey's domestic fighter aircraft.

        Speaking to Turkish daily Habertrk, Kale Group TFX Program Leader Selim Ergn said, "We, together with Rolls-Royce, submitted our last offer on the project to the Defense Industries Presidency in the last days of 2018. There is no change in our position nor that our partner."

        The Kale Group announced that there is no change in the scope of work carried out by British engine manufacturer Rolls-Royce to develop the engine of Turkey's domestic fighter aircraft. A Financial Times report claimed on Monday that Rolls-Royce narrowed the scope of the work it carried out with Kale Group to develop aircraft engines under the TFX project. According to the report, Rolls-Royce CEO Warren East stated that the project slowed down and employees were shifted to other projects.

        Ergn also responded to allegations that a number of disputes emerged in sharing intellectual property rights and regarding the involvement of a Qatari-Turkish company in the project in last year's talks, saying, "There is no such dispute between us and Rolls-Royce."



        The Financial Times report had asserted that Rolls-Royce was troubled with the possible involvement of a Qatari-Turkish company in the project. Reportedly, the company has been seeking a solution for the alleged problem via high-level bureaucracy.

        Underlining that they have been in good terms with Rolls-Royce since they formed a partnership, Ergn noted that both companies could undertake new projects together in the future.

        "We have established good infrastructure throughout our partnership. The partnership we have established in other areas may be used later, but it is too early to say that," he added.

        In 2017, Kale Group had established a partnership with Rolls-Royce to produce an aircraft engine. The partnership was formed after a $133 million defense deal signed between Turkey and the U.K.

        The partnership between the two companies is aimed at developing an engine for use in the new-generation fighter aircraft program dubbed the TFX or the National Combat Aircraft (MMU).

        Turkish and British officials had made great efforts to finalize the deal. Turkey and the U.K. signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) during President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's visit to the U.K. on May 13-15, 2018.

        The fifth-generation fighter jet, one of the country's largest design projects announced by President Erdoğan, is to be realized by a project-based incentive system. Preliminary design activities received a TL 4.8 billion incentive certificate under the incentive program. The project is meant to employ 3,200 people, with indirect employment contribution estimated to be around 11,200.

        Turkey, after the U.S., Russia and China, will thus take its place among the countries in the world that have the infrastructure and technology to produce a fifth-generation fighter jet.

        Comment

        • Bayar
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Oct 2014
          • 813

          Turkish Aerospace begins receiving its Green Bombardier Global 6000 aircraft which have begun to be converted into ASELSAN Airborne Stand Off Jammer Aircraft (SOJ).
          https://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/ice...-ye-geldi-3426

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          Last edited by Bayar; 15th March 2019, 09:14.

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          • LMFS
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • Feb 2018
            • 247

            Scooter
            The Su-57 would be a good option...........(LOL)
            Sorry, I forgot Russia is about to abandon the Su-57 to buy the J-31 instead... only if the state does not collapse before and they have some Rubles left that they don't spend in vodka. Keep up the fun!

            Bayar :

            The Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS) does not guarantee 100% Operational Sovereignty says Turkish officials. Russia's offer would give Turkey operational sovereignty even though the Su-57 may not be considered a truly 5th Gen Aircraft at present due to its engine as it enables Turkey to use its own sub-systems- similar to the US-Israeli relationship.
            This. I have never understood how such system can be bought by nations that pretend being sovereign. Turkey would be much better off without a plane that comes with such a burden, this is a Trojan horse by other name.
            The T-129, T-130, Anka UAV's, Akinci UAV engines, weapons systems and avionics are all indigenous. Turkey during the past 5 years has come along way in terms of design and development of engines. The development of the TS-1400 Turboshaft engine was a milestone for Turkey. As for the F-16- Turkey has developed an indigenous mission computer, avionics suite, AESA Radar, DataLink etc under the TAI Ozgur program. So far these have only been retrofitted to the Block 30 aircraft (but for the Aselsan AESA). If the need arises Turkey can keeps its F-16's flying in an advanced shape relying on national resources.

            Turkey endured a US ambargo in 1974 after the Cyprus Peace Operation and managed. Like 1974 relations will cool temporarily with the US and then get back on track in future.
            Turkey seems to have walked a great way in terms of defence sovereignty then, congratulations. Regarding the evolution for the future, I hope you are right but have the feeling we are heading towards a bigger confrontation.

            Comment

            • Bayar
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Oct 2014
              • 813

              Originally posted by LMFS View Post
              Scooter

              Sorry, I forgot Russia is about to abandon the Su-57 to buy the J-31 instead... only if the state does not collapse before and they have some Rubles left that they don't spend in vodka. Keep up the fun!

              Bayar :


              This. I have never understood how such system can be bought by nations that pretend being sovereign. Turkey would be much better off without a plane that comes with such a burden, this is a Trojan horse by other name.

              Turkey seems to have walked a great way in terms of defence sovereignty then, congratulations. Regarding the evolution for the future, I hope you are right but have the feeling we are heading towards a bigger confrontation.

              The F-16 Block 30 indigenization under the Ozgur Program began in 15 December 2010. After several delays the upgrade kit was approved for serial production on 23 July 2018. The First F-16 Block 30TM Ozgur also made its maiden flight with Turkish Mission Computer and Avionics.

              ZGR PROGRAMME


              The ZGR Programme was launched by a DIEC decree on 15 December 2010, in line with TurAF requirements, and covers the modernisation and certification of an F-16C Block 30 aircraft (which did not receive the Peace Onyx III avionics upgrade) with a national avionic suite solution that combines an indigenous mission computer with a national operational flight programme and an optional AESA radar. The 6 March 2012 contract signed by SSB and TAI became effective on 24 May that year: Aselsan is the main subcontractor for the ZGR programme.

              Under the $46 million contract, TAIs original intent was to conduct a first test flight with the indigenous avionics solution within three years and to commence a 52-month delivery programme in the fourth year. All 35 Block 30 aircraft in TurAF service where therefore expected to be completed by 2020, but the programme is currently lagging behind this schedule.

              ZGR F16C Prototype . (Photo: TAI)


              Meanwhile, TAI and Aselsan signed a $17 million contract on 6 March 2012 for development of a mission computer and procurement of the related avionics, with a 46-month schedule. A System Requirements Review Meeting was held on 4 December 2012 with the participation SSB and the TurAF, and the Preliminary Design Review (PDR) phase was completed in 2013.

              The prototype F-16C Block 30 aircraft modernised under the ZGR Programme and equipped with three coloured multi-functional displays and an indigenous mission computer running an Aselsan-developed national operational flight programme had conducted nine test flights as of 27 December 2016. The software running on the mission computer is installed in blocks dealing with different task capabilities (air-to-air, air-to-surface, etc.), which means not all mission computer functions are yet available. The existing flight control computer has not been changed and is therefore being used as part of the current project on an as is basis.

              In December 2016 (month 54), the 52-month programme schedule was extended to 80 months. After an extended period of silence, a prototype F-16C Block 30 modified under the ZGR programme conducted a test flight over Ankara on 23 July 2018. Sources have indicated to MONCh that important achievements have been made in the programme during the last two years and that steps are currently being taken to initiate the serial modernisation phase of the programme.

              See https://www.monch.com/mpg/news/air/4...s-roundup.html
              Turkey has also developed the TS-1400 1400Hp Turboshaft Engine for the T-129 Atak and T-625 Utility Helicopter. A 2,000 Hp version of the TS-1440 has also been developed and will be used in the TAI T-130 ATAK 2 and 12 Ton Utility Helicopter.

              The TS-1400 engine has also been developed into turbo-pro and turbo-jet versions for use on the TAI HURKUS-C Coin Aircraft and Turbo-Jet powered MIUS UCAV.

              Pakistani T-129's and Philipines T-129's will use Turkish TEI TS-1400 engines so as to avoid US Export controls.



              Turkey Unveils Indigenous Engine

              https://www.helis.com/database/news/ts1400-tei-engine/
              Turkish Engine Industries (TEI) developed the TS1400 turboshaft engine for the TAI T625 helicopter
              Anadolu, January 29, 2019 - Turkey's technology minister tested a new engine on Jan. 4 for the country's new nationally developed helicopter.

              During a trip to the central city of Eskişehir, Mustafa Varank visited a factory of Turkish Engine Industries (TEI) where the TS1400 turboshaft engine had been developed for the indigenous multirole T625 'Gokbey' helicopter.

              Varank also attended the inauguration of new aeronautical testing equipment with which the motor was tested.

              The TS1400 turboshaft engine, which was entirely designed and developed by TEI engineers, is a critical step in shaking off dependence on the outside, Varank said in a speech after inspecting the engine and testing area.

              Adding that at least one of every two planes worldwide use parts manufactured by TEI, Varank underlined that Turkey is seeking greater progress in aeronautics and space technology.

              He stressed that through firms like TEI, 21 billion Turkish lira ($3.9 billion) of investment had been made in Eskişehir over 17 years.

              The T625 is a new generation twin engine six-ton class helicopter developed in response to growing market demand, according to Turkish Aircraft Industries Corporation.



              A TAI T625 mockup on display at Paris Le Bourget Airshow in June 2017
              TEI's first domestic helicopter engine successfully tested

              https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2...ssfully-tested
              DAILY SABAH ISTANBUL
              Published 04.01.2019 20:33
              Updated 05.01.2019 08:00

              Developed by TUSAŞ Engine Industries Inc. (TEI), Turkey's first domestic helicopter power unit, the turboshaft engine TS1400, was successfully tested Friday with the participation of Industry and Technology Minister Mustafa Varank at the company's plant in the central Anatolian province of Eskişehir.
              The TS1400 turboshaft engine designed for the T625 General Purpose Helicopter, which has been recently named "Gkbey," ran for the first time in June when the first ignition of the engine was accomplished. The Defense Industries Presidency (SSB) announced on its official twitter account; "As part of our domestic engine development project for T625 helicopter, the prototype of the core motor which constitutes the main core of the motor was completed and the initial ignition was successfully performed."

              The TS1400 is also expected to be used on HRKUŞ training aircraft and Advanced Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopter T129 ATAK, as well as its derivatives developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI).

              The engine, which will be driven by 1400 horsepower, is planned to be in serial production in 2024 after eight years of development. The production unit will, however, be powered by two TS1400 turboshaft engines.

              TEI's Turboshaft Engine Development Project (TEDP) looks to decrease dependence on foreign sources while enabling domestic production of engine systems, which constitute one of the most important components of these projects, and increasing the percentage of indigenous production in these projects.

              The capabilities, gained under the Turboshaft Engine Development Project, will be supplemented as necessary, and enable the domestic aircraft engine to be developed to satisfy changing needs.
              The TAI Anka and TAI ANKA-2 use the PD-170 and PD-220 Engines produced by TUSAS Engine Industries.

              Turkish UAV ANKA makes maiden flight using domestically-developed engine

              https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2...veloped-engine
              DAILY SABAHISTANBUL
              Published 28.12.2018 21:32
              Updated 29.12.2018 14:42

              Turkey's new generation unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) ANKA successfully carried out its maiden flight with its new domestically-developed engine.
              With the flight, an important step was taken in projects carried out by the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TUSAŞ/TAI) Engine Industries (TEI), Turkey's pioneering institution in aviation engines, to end the country's external dependence on UAV engines and meet newly emerging needs.

              The PD-170 turbo diesel aerospace engine, developed under the Operative UAV Engine Development Project, successfully transported ANKA to the sky.

              "Our domestic UAV made its first flight with its domestic and national engine PD-170," Presidency of Defense Industry (SSB) President İsmail Demir said on Twitter, also thanking TAI, TEI and SBB personnel who worked all night at minus 10 degrees Celsius and ensured Turkey's independence in another field.

              The domestically made engine will replace the engines that are already supplied from abroad and currently used in ANKA.

              The design of the PD-170 turbo diesel aerospace engine was completed to a large extent. In the maturation studies carried out in parallel with four different engine test systems, an engine test of more than 4,000 hours was performed since its first commissioning in January 2017.


              With resistance tests and continuously developed design solutions, the engine has reached a level of maturity where it is ready to begin flight tests.

              The PD-170 is regarded as a pioneer in its class with 170-horsepower at an altitude of 20,000 feet and one of the best for fuel consumption and power/weight ratio.

              Meanwhile, studies on the PD-220 engine, which will be an upper version of the PD-170 engine, have also begun. This engine will power up the new generation of the new heavily-armed UAV Akıncı UAV developed by leading unmanned air system manufacturer Baykar Makina.

              Within this context, the PD-170 engine was delivered to Baykar Makina, a major supplier of UAVs for the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK), on Sept. 30 for the continuation of design and integration works without interruption and the commissioning of the first flight trials.

              Designed with a twin-engine mechanism and with 24 hours of endurance at 40,000 feet, Akıncı has started to be manufactured. Set to make its first flight in 2020, the system will carry 900 kilograms of ammunition. Delivery is expected in 2021 after a one-year testing period.
              Last edited by Bayar; 18th March 2019, 14:36.

              Comment

              • Bayar
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Oct 2014
                • 813

                After Turkey, Pakistan and the Philippines, Brazil may be the 4th operator of the Turkish Aerospace T-129 ATAK Helicopter: http://airrecognition.com/index.php/...n-america.html

                Comment

                • LMFS
                  Rank 4 Registered User
                  • Feb 2018
                  • 247

                  Bayar

                  Serious job done by Turkish MIC. I thought the T-129 exports were doomed but it just don't seem to be the case.

                  Regarding ALIS and in light of your last post at the F-35 thread: does Turkey have any known plan to make changes to the plane's operational control? Or would they just take the plane as it is, amidst all Western ill-wishing for current leadership and decrying of its geopolitical stance? Needing to keep unrestricted access to ALIS to simply fly the plane looks the ideal way for US to get intelligence from and even sabotage the Turkish fleet in an extreme situation.

                  Comment

                  • Bayar
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Oct 2014
                    • 813

                    Originally posted by LMFS View Post
                    Bayar

                    Serious job done by Turkish MIC. I thought the T-129 exports were doomed but it just don't seem to be the case.

                    Regarding ALIS and in light of your last post at the F-35 thread: does Turkey have any known plan to make changes to the plane's operational control? Or would they just take the plane as it is, amidst all Western ill-wishing for current leadership and decrying of its geopolitical stance? Needing to keep unrestricted access to ALIS to simply fly the plane looks the ideal way for US to get intelligence from and even sabotage the Turkish fleet in an extreme situation.
                    Turkey wants to link F-35 jets to its Air Force network

                    https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018...force-network/

                    By: Burak Ege Bekdil   January 9, 2018
                    ANKARA, Turkey Turkeys defense procurement agency has officially launched a competition to combine all information systems on the countrys planned F-35 Lightning II fifth-generation multirole fighter jets to the Turkish Air Forces system network.

                    The Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM in its Turkish acronym) dubs the program F-35/Air Force Information System Integration Project.

                    Under the program, the successful contender will connect the information systems installed on the F-35 fighter aircraft with the Air Forces information systems network, otherwise known as HvBS.

                    The program involves safe connection of information systems elements between the F-35 aircraft and the Air Forces information systems network as well as safe sharing of classified information between these systems, SSM said.

                    SSM has asked bidders to suggest solutions by Feb. 28. SSM's department for cybersecurity and electronic warfare systems will be in charge of the program.


                    Turkey is a partner in the U.S.-led, multinational Joint Strike Fighter program. Under the JSF program, Turkey has committed to procure a total of 116 aircraft. Turkey placed its first JSF order in 2014 under its low-rate initial production 10 program, and its second order in October 2016.

                    Turkey's procurement and military officials are hoping to build a new-generation, dual-fighter jet fleet by their country's centennial, 2023, comprising of the F-35 and an indigenous aircraft, known as TF-X, that Ankara has been designing under a know-how contract with BAE Systems.

                    Industry sources said the program to build critical links between the F-35 aircraft and Turkey's combined Air Force command network probably won't cost hundreds of millions of dollars, but it was tagged as strategic by the procurement authority.

                    This program will test the technological capabilities of Turkeys local industry, a source said. The political idea is to earn as much indigenous software space as possible while at the same time remaining within the [JSF] program.

                    Turkish officials have said the idea behind the TF-X program is to build a fighter fleet independent of foreign technology.

                    Turkish Aerospace has not only had success in exporting the T-129 but also its UCAV platforms. More recently Turkey sold and delivered MALE UAV's to Ukraine.

                    Ukraine receives UAVs purchased from Turkey: Poroshenko

                    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/ukr...oshenko-141738 ANKARA- Anadolu Agency

                    Ukraine has received the unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) purchased from Turkey, Ukrainian president announced on March 7.

                    "Modern Bayraktar TB2 unmanned aerial vehicles are already in Ukraine," Petro Poroshenko said in a Twitter post.

                    Earlier in January, Poroshenko announced that Ukraine signed an agreement to purchase Bayraktar TB2 armed UAVs from Turkey for the Ukrainian army.

                    "We continue to strengthen our army with modern types of equipment and weapons," he added.

                    He stressed that the purchase of armed UAVs is part of a partnership program between Ukraine and NATO member states.

                    Poroshenko said that the next step of the program is the creation of a joint Ukrainian-Turkish enterprise in southeastern Zaporizhia city of Ukraine that will produce components for modern unmanned technology.

                    Based on the agreement in January, Turkish UAV manufacturer Baykar was to produce six Bayraktar TB2 and deliver them to Ukraine in a year. Along with the UAVs, three ground control station systems and equipment was also mentioned to be delivered.

                    Bayraktar TB2 has been used by the Turkish Armed Forces and Turkey's Security Directorate since 2015.

                    The TB2 armed UAV, was developed for tactical reconnaissance and surveillance missions and it can also carry ammo, conduct assaults, and has laser target acquisition.
                    See also https://jamestown.org/program/ukrain...strike-drones/

                    Malaysia, Bangladesh and Thailand are also currently evaluating the T-129 and TAI Anka MALE UCAV platforms.

                    Turkey has received serious export income from its arms exports and is directly investing this into R&D and production of new platforms such as the TF-X, HurJet Trainer, Engine programs etc.


                    See https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...129s-a-445587/
                    Last edited by Bayar; 18th March 2019, 17:29.

                    Comment

                    • FBW
                      FBW
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3140

                      Actually Turkey has nothing to loose. In fact, its pivot East would merely solidify a multi-polar world: East and West. The US could then forgot about access to the Black Sea: Turkey and Russia would ensure it becomes their own lake.
                      Politics aside, this is pure B.S. Turkey has a huge amount to lose. Basically, a break of that magnitude would render the Turkish military inoperable. Germany has already balked at weapons sales to Turkey, a complete rift would lead to the loss of support for the entire submarine fleet, Leopard tanks, Diesel spares and support for MEKO based ships.

                      Loss of US sourced military hardware and support would include: US weapon spares and support for the surface fleet (compatable with the mk 41), impact on land forces: MRLS, ATACMS, a large portion of the helicopter fleet, and while the F-16 fleet would probably be able to remain operable for a time, losing OEM support would seriously degrade the ability to incorporate upgrades and newer weapons.

                      Bottom line, while the Turkish military can be purged of Western leaning officers, and citizens like yourself can spout off about "multi-polar" world. Erdogan is playing a dangerous game. Looking tough against the US and Europe and publicly castigating allies may increase his popularity in Turkey, but to institute a break with NATO and courting Russia would cost Turkey dearly in regards to it's military and court possible sanctions. He has walked right to the edge and backed off before and will likely continue this process. Every single one of Turkey's major defense and industrial partners in the West is tiring of this.

                      Turkey's Military and Defense Industry relied heavily on the US and Europe in the past due to its NATO membership. Today Turkey's priority is operational sovereignty through indigenous programs- programs it funds in line with its growing GDP.
                      Let's look at the indigenous defense industry that provides operational sovereignty:

                      Altay tank- K2 licence with some Turkish improvements and changes

                      T-129 attack helicopter- based on the A129 Mangusta (would be interesting to see if Turkey needs permission to export the T-129 due to IP, license issues though they purchased all design and production rights it's unclear if that applies to third parties)

                      T-155- again S. Korea, K9

                      Even the ever expanding portfolio of missiles and ordinance if of dubious "indigenous" content:

                      Atmaca- Harpoon with some Turkish improvements, the actual amount of foreign content is murky

                      OMTAS- again murky origins, foreign content (spike, TOW)

                      SOM-J- open origins as a JV with Lockheed Martin


                      What Turkey has transitioned to from nearly 90% percent off the shelf weapons purchases, to nearly 90% local production with increasing levels of indigenous tech.

                      That is admirable and has been a boon for corporations like Roketsan that produces parts for various Western project, TAI, and Kale P&W ( 51% Kale group/ 49% P&W, which actually produces the F110 for Turkey). What Bayar chooses to ignore is the Western content and licenses that are interwoven in many of these claimed Turkish projects.

                      Comment

                      • FBW
                        FBW
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3140

                        As far as S-400 co-production and tech transfer myth:

                        http://www.allazimuth.com/2018/12/23...erry-go-round/

                        On this, the Russian side has been very open and consistent throughout: the consensus has been on off-the-shelf transfer; sharing of technologies has never been at stake declared Putins top military advisor.[77] Other defense officials stressed that the S-400s internal control (source) codes would never be shared with Turkey.[78] Referring to Turkish demands for localization, the S-400s Russian manufacturer touched the bounds of arrogance: without the necessary infrastructure, it is impossible to manufacture anything.

                        Comment

                        • LMFS
                          Rank 4 Registered User
                          • Feb 2018
                          • 247

                          Bayar

                          Thanks again for the info. This looks like a platform being built to link to the F-35, but no reference is done to ALIS or I am failing to see it. Ideally Turkish Air Force would have their own operative control inside of the plane, as I understand Israel does. The next best alternative is to filter the communication between the plane and ALIS servers, said in a very superficial way. Maybe I am wrong since I am no cybersecurity expert, but I don't think there can be 100% the certainty what kind of communication is going on end to end in a black-box kind of system like this.
                          Last edited by LMFS; 18th March 2019, 17:40.

                          Comment

                          • FBW
                            FBW
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3140

                            As far as the actual level of Turkish technology in some of these projects:

                            https://besacenter.org/perspectives-...yce-ambitions/

                            Comment

                            • Bayar
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Oct 2014
                              • 813

                              Originally posted by FBW View Post

                              Politics aside, this is pure B.S. Turkey has a huge amount to lose. Basically, a break of that magnitude would render the Turkish military inoperable. Germany has already balked at weapons sales to Turkey, a complete rift would lead to the loss of support for the entire submarine fleet, Leopard tanks, Diesel spares and support for MEKO based ships.

                              Loss of US sourced military hardware and support would include: US weapon spares and support for the surface fleet (compatable with the mk 41), impact on land forces: MRLS, ATACMS, a large portion of the helicopter fleet, and while the F-16 fleet would probably be able to remain operable for a time, losing OEM support would seriously degrade the ability to incorporate upgrades and newer weapons.

                              Bottom line, while the Turkish military can be purged of Western leaning officers, and citizens like yourself can spout off about "multi-polar" world. Erdogan is playing a dangerous game. Looking tough against the US and Europe and publicly castigating allies may increase his popularity in Turkey, but to institute a break with NATO and courting Russia would cost Turkey dearly in regards to it's military and court possible sanctions. He has walked right to the edge and backed off before and will likely continue this process. Every single one of Turkey's major defense and industrial partners in the West is tiring of this.



                              Let's look at the indigenous defense industry that provides operational sovereignty:

                              Altay tank- K2 licence with some Turkish improvements and changes

                              T-129 attack helicopter- based on the A129 Mangusta (would be interesting to see if Turkey needs permission to export the T-129 due to IP, license issues though they purchased all design and production rights it's unclear if that applies to third parties)

                              T-155- again S. Korea, K9

                              Even the ever expanding portfolio of missiles and ordinance if of dubious "indigenous" content:

                              Atmaca- Harpoon with some Turkish improvements, the actual amount of foreign content is murky

                              OMTAS- again murky origins, foreign content (spike, TOW)

                              SOM-J- open origins as a JV with Lockheed Martin


                              What Turkey has transitioned to from nearly 90% percent off the shelf weapons purchases, to nearly 90% local production with increasing levels of indigenous tech.

                              That is admirable and has been a boon for corporations like Roketsan that produces parts for various Western project, TAI, and Kale P&W ( 51% Kale group/ 49% P&W, which actually produces the F110 for Turkey). What Bayar chooses to ignore is the Western content and licenses that are interwoven in many of these claimed Turkish projects.
                              I am well aware of what Western input there is and in what specific program and component. Since 2010 the Western content is de minimis in Turkish Defense platforms. Most NATO and US companies imposed a de facto silent embargo on Turkey since 2010 (Post Gezi protests) yet Turkey still managed to fullfill its defense programs. E.g. Germany's MTU banned the sale of MBT engines for the Altay. Turkey got technological support from Ukraine and UK (Cummins) and developed its own.

                              In any event Licence production does not limit the lethality of a platform. Nearly every program has its origins in a licence production or co-production program. But Turkey then invests heavily into R&D for indigenous designs. Licence production and co-production deals have enabled Turkey to obtain "know-how" which it then uses on its own designs. All intellectual property rights of the platforms Turkey has been exporting belong to Turkey. Otherwise Turkey would be facing numerous suites at the World Intellectual Property Organisation. There is no denying that Turkey has obtained know-how from licence production and co-production deals. This is what has enabled to Turkish companies to come to where they are today. From here its R&D and commercialization of university research. This is the Turkish Government policy since 2010.

                              You mention the Altay as being a K2. You obviously have zero clue about the specifications of the Altay. They are two entirely different platforms.
                              The T-129 has no commonality with the A129 Mangusta. It uses Turkish mission computer, avionics, engine, weapons systems and FCR.
                              T-155- Yes K9 licence but now Turkey produces the T-160 Firtina 2 an entirely indigenous platform developed from know how obtained in first program.
                              ATMACA- Zero licencing arrangements with Lockheed Martin. It uses a KALE AERO TurboJet engine as opposed to a French engine and has far greater range than Harpoon.
                              OMTAS- no resemblance to TOW or Spike.
                              SOM-J- is a development of the SOM missile already in the Turkish Air Force inventory. Lockheed Martin itself confirms this.

                              You mention the Submarine Fleet and MEKO frigates. I think you are not following Turkish development closely. Turkey is replacing its entire surface combatant fleet with the MILGEM Corvettes, TF-100 Frigates, TF-2000 AAW Destroyers and MILDEN Submarines which uses compressed CO2 AIP propulsion! Even the Multifunction, Active Phased Array Radar System on the TF-2000 is indigenous.

                              Yes the Western companies may no longer engage in co-production deals with Turkish companies. But this will have little effect on Turkish companies as they now have come to a mature stage whereby they can transfer knowledge from Universities into Platforms. Western companies can also easily be replaced with Asian and former Soviet countries.
                              Last edited by Bayar; 18th March 2019, 18:02.

                              Comment

                              • LMFS
                                Rank 4 Registered User
                                • Feb 2018
                                • 247

                                Originally posted by FBW View Post
                                What Bayar chooses to ignore is the Western content and licenses that are interwoven in many of these claimed Turkish projects.
                                It is completely expected and logical that Turkey takes the easy way to increase the local returns and ToT to its defence industry. What I find important is not as much license issues and the like as the ultimate capability the country has to hold its position if push comes to shove. Impact would be big obviously but with the amount of industrial capabilities shown Turkey's military would not be brought to a standstill by an eventual Western boycott, that seems reasonably clear to me.

                                Comment

                                • Bayar
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Oct 2014
                                  • 813

                                  Originally posted by LMFS View Post

                                  It is completely expected and logical that Turkey takes the easy way to increase the local returns and ToT to its defence industry. What I find important is not as much license issues and the like as the ultimate capability the country has to hold its position if push comes to shove. Impact would be big obviously but with the amount of industrial capabilities shown Turkey's military would not be brought to a standstill by an eventual Western boycott, that seems reasonably clear to me.
                                  What is interesting is that the present circumstances that we are facing now actually occurred back in 1974 when Turkey launched the Cyprus Peach Operation. So history is repeating itself. The US imposed an embargo on Turkey. Turkey turned to Russia and weathered the embargo (It had purchased Mi-17's). The US Administration then changed and the new Administration moved to restore relations with Turkey.

                                  Click image for larger version  Name:	31317d1305220895-dsc_8452-1600x1200-.jpg Views:	0 Size:	130.9 KB ID:	3856336
                                  Turkey is not a newcomer to Russian Arms. It uses the Kornet-E, Mi-17, APC's etc.
                                  Last edited by Bayar; 18th March 2019, 18:05.

                                  Comment

                                  • FBW
                                    FBW
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Dec 2011
                                    • 3140

                                    Licence production and co-production deals have enabled Turkey to obtain "know-how" which it then uses on its own designs. All intellectual property rights of the platforms Turkey has been exporting belong to Turkey. Otherwise Turkey would be facing numerous suites at the World Intellectual Property Organisation. There is no mention that Turkey has obtained know-how from licence production and co-production deals.
                                    Right, Like the F110 which you claimed that Turkey has the ability and right to manufacture on it's own, conveniently omitting that Kale-P&W produces the engine. As with any multinational defense firm or JV, there are firewalls for IP. In other words, if P&W pulled out of the project all of the specialized equipment, designs, software, proprietary technology would go with it.

                                    Comment

                                    • Bayar
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Oct 2014
                                      • 813

                                      Originally posted by FBW View Post

                                      Right, Like the F110 which you claimed that Turkey has the ability and right to manufacture on it's own, conveniently omitting that Kale-P&W produces the engine. As with any multinational defense firm or JV, there are firewalls for IP. In other words, if P&W pulled out of the project all of the specialized equipment, designs, software, proprietary technology would go with it.
                                      KALE Aero did not even exist when Turkey began acquiring the F-16's in late 1980's so I really don't know where you are getting this rubbish from.

                                      TUSAS Engine Industries was formed as a JV between GE and Turkish Aerospace Industries for the licence production of F-110 engines for the Peace Onyx 1 program in 1985. The JV between GE and Turkish Aerospace was extended for another 25 years on January 29, 2010.

                                      GE and TAI Extend Tusas Engine Industries, Inc. Joint Venture for Another 25 Years

                                      https://www.geaviation.com/press-rel...other-25-years
                                      January 29, 2010

                                      ANKARA, Turkey -- GE Aviation has renewed the Tusas Engine Industries, Inc. (TEI) joint venture with Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI) for another 25 years. Under this agreement, TEI will continue to provide critical parts for commercial, military and marine engines through 2035, with TAI retaining a majority ownership in the joint venture.

                                      "We are pleased to extend this valued relationship," said Jean Lydon-Rodgers, Vice President and General Manager of GE Aviation Military Systems. "Our involvement with TEI goes far beyond parts. Development of the Turkiye Technology Center in Istanbul, expansion into the Maintenance Repair and Overhaul arena, plus design and manufacturing of some of our most critical parts, underscores the growing scope of value TEI provides."

                                      GE Aviation's long-standing relationship with TEI began in 1985 with the establishment of a facility for production of F110 engines that power F-16 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force. TEI now produces more than 560 different engine parts.

                                      Recently, TEI launched parts manufacturing efforts for the GEnx, which powers both the Boeing 747-8 and Boeing 787 Dreamliner. More than 1,000 GEnx engines are on order. TEI has also been selected to provide parts for the GE Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team's F136 engine for the Joint Strike Fighter program, and is the only GE supplier to produce "blisk spools," a combination of blades and disks cast into a single forging for significant weight and durability advantages. TEI is also a recipient of GE Aviation's prestigious Brian H. Rowe Research & Development award for work on the J85 Ejector System.

                                      Since its entry into the Turkish market in 1948 as the first foreign industrial investor, GE has steadily continued its growth through investments in technology and services. Today, GE is a leading player in finance, energy, consumer & industrial products, water technologies, media and engineering fields. GE employs 500 people in Turkey, and more than 18,000 employees through its joint ventures. GE Aviation's engines power the majority of fighters, cargo aircraft, helicopters and ships in the Turkish Armed Forces inventory, including F-16s, Black Hawks and Frigates. GE Aviation and CFM International also power more than 400 civil aircraft in Turkey.

                                      GE Aviation, an operating unit of GE (NYSE: GE), is a world-leading provider of jet engines, components and integrated systems for commercial and military aircraft. GE Aviation has a global service network to support these offerings.
                                      You seem to profess to know more than GE Aviation itself!

                                      You make a lot of statements based on speculation and assumption but do not provide the primary sources to support those assertions.

                                      If Turkish companies have been stealing Intellectual Property as you claim why hasn't Turkish Aerospace been sued by the likes of GE Aviation, Lockheed Martin etc?
                                      Last edited by Bayar; 18th March 2019, 18:16.

                                      Comment

                                      • Bayar
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Oct 2014
                                        • 813

                                        Originally posted by LMFS View Post
                                        Bayar

                                        Thanks again for the info. This looks like a platform being built to link to the F-35, but no reference is done to ALIS or I am failing to see it. Ideally Turkish Air Force would have their own operative control inside of the plane, as I understand Israel does. The next best alternative is to filter the communication between the plane and ALIS servers, said in a very superficial way. Maybe I am wrong since I am no cybersecurity expert, but I don't think there can be 100% the certainty what kind of communication is going on end to end in a black-box kind of system like this.
                                        ALIS uses web-enabled applications on a distributed network to relay feedback to the US. Turkey is designing systems to compartmentalise the F-35's within its Network Centric force so as to prevent leaks from its own AirForce Network to the US. The same thing is being done for Turkey's S-400's. There will be no direct link to the Turkish Air Force Network by these platforms. Only platforms developed in Turkey such as the future TF-X etc can have direct links. The S-400 and F-35 will have a secondary link to the TuAF Network. Basically there would be an intermediary which filters the information before the link to and from the S-400 and F-35.

                                        This is a great read: http://www.milscint.com/en/meteksan-...ent-of-kement/
                                        Last edited by Bayar; 18th March 2019, 18:52.

                                        Comment

                                        • FBW
                                          FBW
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Dec 2011
                                          • 3140

                                          Correct meant TAI-GE for the F110 when I was looking at Kale-PW on the F135.


                                          Again, (repacking company names) the F110 being produced by a JV TEI between TAI-GE does not mean Turkey owns any proprietary tech, tools, software for the F110. Apparently, you think a JV means that being the host nation for a JV production facility means technology transfer to said host. That simply isnt the case, militnational defense companies and JV have firewalls to prevent such things as IP theft, unlicensed production, or technology transfer regulated by ITAR under US law.


                                          Look no further than RR-Kale JV (TAEC), Rolls has scaled back any participation due to IP concerns and is now stating possible co-development without Proprietary technology. In other words, Rolls is offering to help Kale develop an engine should the Turkish government choose their JV as an engine supplier, not transfer RR engine technology.
                                          Last edited by FBW; 18th March 2019, 19:05.

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