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  • JSR
    JSR
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Aug 2011
    • 4976

    Originally posted by Andraxxus View Post
    OK, I don't disagree one 1 on 1 basis Su-35 a better plane than F-16; it has better radar, higher range, better payload... But such an arms procurement is not just 1 vs 1 comparison... In simplest example; Turkey domestically manufacture Mk-82 bombs, with several thousand bombs in stock.. An F-16 can carry 18 of those if need arise... A Su-35 can carry 0.. It can carry many more FAB-250 bombs, but Turkey don't have any FAB-250 bombs.. Which plane has better payload capacity, now? Lets say you modified either the Su-35 to accomodate Mk-82 or the MKEK plant to produce FAB-250 bombs instead... Domestic HGK/KGK satellite guided bomb kits and LGK laser guided bomb kit are designed for Mk-82 bombs.. They also require Aselpod for targeting... Will we have to change them as well?

    For air to air comparison, lets say your adversary has 5 F-16s (Greece) or F-14 (for Iran).... Which one would you prefer?

    a) A Boeing 737 AEW&C, locating them from some 800 km away via ESM, targeting them from 600 km while itself being hidden due to LPI characteristics of its radar, and guide 5 friendly F-16s towards them.. F-16s would then be going all silent or with active jamming, they deploy AIM-120C7s from optimal range, and will turn tail and run.. AWACS can provide mid-course updates.

    b) or 5 Su-35 that has no realistic outside support detecting them by their own at ~250km and try to hit them by guiding their own R-77Ms while also trying to avoid the enemy's AIM-120C7s (or AIM-54s)??

    Remember, both sides in such scenario are using ARH missiles so when Su-35 pilots hear the AIM-120 lock in RWR, breaking radar lock of the enemy has no use, they still have to evade the locked missile.. AWACS providing mid course updates from safe distance would allow friendly units to turn away from the enemy right after they launch the missiles, so its a tail-on engagement for the enemy.. I am sure Su-35 would still do OK in this scenario, but nowhere as good as F-16s backed by AWACS+Link16..

    Su-35 has greater range, but who cares? Athens is 293km from iğli base, most distant point in Cyprus is 350km away from İncirlik, much shorter if I include reserve airforce base like Gazipaşa (ignoring the fact Turkey has a base inside Cyprus as well).. Damascus is ~815km from İncirlik, only 361km from Pınarbaşı base in Northen Cyprus. Even Cairo is 687 km away from Pınarbaşı... Turkey never bought any F-15 for the same reason why it doesn't need Su-35 now... If Turkey needed better ranged aircraft, they would have first introduced more CFT compatibility in their F-16 fleet and bought 600gal tanks... There are only like 30 F-16s in whole TuAF inventory which is capable of carrying CFT, and TuAF to my knowledge doesn't have any 600gal tanks; only 370gal tanks.

    Su-35 is a plain no-go for Turkey.. Its also indirectly stated by Turkish FM; "F-35 is a new technology aircraft, that was the reason we were the member of the project.. For the sake of argument let's say everything gone wrong and they didn't give us the F-35.. Then Turkey needs next generation aircrafts, until it can produce on its own. Then we will outsource it from others, as it is our natural right, just like we bought S-400 from Russia."

    For all its greatness, people are forgetting Su-35 is still basically a modernised version of a 40+ year old aircraft.. It will never, ever will be a substitute for F-35. It has range etc, but its like comparing a Su-15TM to an F-16C in 1990s. I am fully aware Russians will have their limits on what will they share with Turkey, but some tech transfer, some local production like engine & airframe parts, 100% domestic maintenence of Turkish Su-57 aircraft, plus cooperation with integration of Turkish-developed munitions will be a good compromise for both sides...

    Its either S-400 + F-35 or S-400 + Su-57 for Turkey.. Or Turkey is just better off "giving" S-400 to Northern Cyprus and/or donating it to Azerbaijan and stick to the F-35 project.. S-400 alone doesn't worth the trouble it causes and Russian side would know this better than I do.
    what is next generation? Turkey too backward technologically to modify Su-57.
    the definition of Su-35 is high supersonic speed ,organizing group actions, electronic attack.

    its built from ground up with stronger titanium materials unlike any previous fighter. It does not matter whether 5 or 10 F-16. They simply dont have the size of EW or imparting performance to missiles.

    Comment

    • eagle
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2000
      • 2369

      Originally posted by Andraxxus View Post
      What "lol"? And what other tanks? Turkey initially wanted to buy 1000 new tanks in 1999. After tank trials conducted 2001 (involving M1A2, Leo2, Leclerc, T-84) Leo2 was selected. AFTER its selected, German government backed away from the deal. Then in 2005, Germany offered the sale of its surplus Leo2A4 tanks, Turkey had no choice but to buy 354 to balance the 353 Leo2 tanks Greece bought in 2003...

      In 2005, no one offered "other tanks"... Challenger was never offered in the first place, M1A2 offer problematic even from the start (it was supposed to be re-engined diesel version of it), surplus M1A1 sales were **rejected** (only to be offered as free aid to Greece few years later like they need tanks), and Turkey refused to buy new-built Leo2s because of Germanys.. T-84 was rejected back then because of incompatibility with NATO... At one point Turkey even looked at Merkava tanks, and again it was stalled and rejected.

      Turkey and Germany invalidated the "anti-terror" agreement regarding Leo2 tanks few years ago, so Syria is irrelevant; currently some Leo2s are transferred to 2nd army (judging from licence plates). This is too little too late, Leo2A4 would have made difference in 2005, now they don't do well; they are considered inferior to M-60Ts because they lack upgrades; upgrades -to no one's suprise- also blocked by Germany...
      So you blame the Germans for not selling Turkey the tanks because the Germans didn't want them to be used in "anti-terror-ops". Then, when Turkey actually executes "anti-terror-ops", you blame the Germans for your lack of modern tanks? How exactly is this the Germans fault? Sounds to me they were exactly right. It's not the fault of the German gov. if there was no other tank on offer that satisfied the Turkish requirements. And it's also their choice to whom they sell or not, or with whatever strings attached.
      Granted I don't know much about tanks. But it can't be that hard to find something other than a Leo 2 that's also better than an M60...

      On another note, it's good to read about a more realistic view on TF-X...
      How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
      Yngwie Malmsteen

      Comment

      • JSR
        JSR
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Aug 2011
        • 4976


        Originally posted by Andraxxus View Post
        a) A Boeing 737 AEW&C, locating them from some 800 km away via ESM, targeting them from 600 km while itself being hidden due to LPI characteristics of its radar, and guide 5 friendly F-16s towards them.. F-16s would then be going all silent or with active jamming, they deploy AIM-120C7s from optimal range, and will turn tail and run.. AWACS can provide mid-course updates.

        SU-35 is continously produced. it has much faster upgrade implemented in EW and ESM than one off AWACS. which could have 20 year old technology. it is medium altitude AWACS with less power than high altitude fighter with rotating radar.

        just three years ago range of Kh-38 was 40km. now it is 70km. such fast is technological progress interms of range. now 80km original R-77 could have 800km range as 80km is 30years old figures.
        http://ktrv.ru/production/voennaya_produktsiya/mnogotselevye_rakety/rakety_tipa_kh-38me.html


        No, its a calculated risk.. Risk the secrets of S-400, but gain the loyalty of 2nd largest army of NATO, access to straits, safe access to Mediterranean (which Syria is not so guaranteed to provide)... Hell, Turkey can even rent Erkal's floating drydock to Russia so they can fix Kuznetsov.

        You are overselling a paper tiger. Such conditions are created that even Turkey business will put things on railway to sell things and many other routes to North and South.
        Its Turkey that need safe access to Mediterranean and Suez canal. as it has no other way
        https://caspiannews.com/news-detail/turkey-is-betting-on-btk-railway-to-help-increase-trade-with-russia-2019-7-17-54/
        As I said previously Germany is facing heatwave effects for its industrial policy and French demands of large scale Aviaition projects that need boat load of money and technical expertize. It will force Germany and its sidekick to Turkey to live only on Russia terms. There is no escaping.

        https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2019-07-22/safran-urges-russia-make-substitutes-us-engine-parts

        Comment

        • Deino
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2000
          • 4225

          Originally posted by JSR View Post
          [COLOR=black][FONT="Helvetica"]
          .... such fast is technological progress interms of range. now 80km original R-77 could have 800km range as 80km is 30years old figures.
          ....

          The R-77 could reach a range of 800km????

          I am not sure, what kind of dope you consumed, but you should leave it.

          ...

          He was my North, my South, my East and West,
          My working week and my Sunday rest,
          My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
          I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

          The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
          Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
          Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
          For nothing now can ever come to any good.
          -------------------------------------------------
          W.H.Auden (1945)

          Comment

          • JSR
            JSR
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Aug 2011
            • 4976

            What else you can expect in explaining things in layman terms about advance technolgy.. I put unrelated small missile example whose range got double in 3 years. Only Russia has deployed longest range multipurpose cruise missiles on small subs and ships. there is no reason to doubt about air to air missile range will not increase in same proportion especially when launch platform is of much higher performance than previous era jets.
            Turkey will have to completely disband current airforce and start a new aiforce with Russia technology and training than it will understand the effectiveness of 4.75g Su-35, Glonass, AWACS like A-100 with wingtip pods or Tu-214R. Even 1960s technology Su-25 could generate six sorties a day in Syria with airbase hardly made from ground up at the time.. No Turkish airforce plane can generate six sorties outside home base.
            All S400 components were supplied in 30 Cargo flights instead of shipping them through sea. It is demonstrate Russian system of Air transport. Similar Russia is forcing Turkey to move trade to railway from seas. You can see Russia is transforming Turkey.

            Comment

            • RALL
              Rank 4 Registered User
              • Aug 2017
              • 203

              Originally posted by Deino View Post


              The R-77 could reach a range of 800km????

              I am not sure, what kind of dope you consumed, but you should leave it.
              Crazy.

              Indians want change its R-77 on Su-30 for israel Derby I-ER because the poor range.

              https://thediplomat.com/2019/06/indi...ange-missiles/
              https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/outgunned-by-pakistan-f-16s-iaf-plans-to-re-arm-its-sukhois-with-israeli-missiles-2044172

              Comment

              • halloweene
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2012
                • 4351

                How did a thread about turkey industry derail that much?

                Comment

                • Deino
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 4225

                  Fan boys and armchair analysts were taking part.
                  ...

                  He was my North, my South, my East and West,
                  My working week and my Sunday rest,
                  My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
                  I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

                  The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
                  Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
                  Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
                  For nothing now can ever come to any good.
                  -------------------------------------------------
                  W.H.Auden (1945)

                  Comment

                  • panzerfeist1
                    Rank 6 Registered User
                    • Feb 2018
                    • 399


                    Seems your source is from june 4th. But it seems they have ordered about 400 R-77s about a week ago https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...missiles-63632 and this source came out a day ago https://tass.com/defense/1070981. Does not seem to make any sense at all of Indians saying Russian missiles don't work 2 weeks ago to now inking a 1000 air to air missile deal if you ask me.
                    I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

                    Comment

                    • Deino
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2000
                      • 4225

                      Interesting read ...

                      https://hushkit.net/2019/08/09/turke...n-could-it-be/
                      ...

                      He was my North, my South, my East and West,
                      My working week and my Sunday rest,
                      My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
                      I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

                      The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
                      Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
                      Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
                      For nothing now can ever come to any good.
                      -------------------------------------------------
                      W.H.Auden (1945)

                      Comment

                      • LMFS
                        Rank 4 Registered User
                        • Feb 2018
                        • 520

                        Originally posted by Deino View Post
                        As they admit themselves in the article, the risks with all Western equipment are the same in that US can block it or get access to it. Turkey wants an insurance against Western intervention and you can't buy that in the West.

                        Comment

                        • J-20
                          Rank 4 Registered User
                          • Jan 2018
                          • 255

                          Originally posted by Deino View Post

                          For once, I agree with my KP brother (or sister), Deinosaurus.. in his idea and full support of Typhoon for Turkey.

                          Turks LOVE Boris Johnson.. they LOOOVE him. He is a quarter Turkish at least!
                          all the proof here
                          https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1UJ1E8

                          also, Eurofighter's other main partner Germany... they will definitely support it.. Berlin is already half ethnically Turkish anyways and Germans love Turks.. Doner Kebab stall every corner.

                          they will certainly support the sale! Turkish army is mostly Leopard tanks too.



                          But from a military perspective.. Turks really needed a 5th gen strike aircraft. the Typhoon is not it.

                          But from an industry perspective.. the British put links below stating Typhoon production about to end. A Turkish contract will at least prolong it.

                          from a strategic perspective, works out as both hate the EU.

                          Comment

                          • JSR
                            JSR
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Aug 2011
                            • 4976

                            Originally posted by Deino View Post
                            This is not interesting . but useless. It will be very hard to export anything from Germany without consulting with French and what ever comes out of it will be obsolete.
                            French is now in position to close down Eurofighter/ Gripen production and concentrate all Europe resources on 6G fighter. France is biggest geographic country in Western EU and it has already imposed its will EU offices.


                            Cyprus plans Mari naval base expansion to host French Navy ships


                            https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-saudi-france/germany-favoring-france-in-saudi-export-ban-funke-report-idUSKCN1RA1WL
                            Germany favoring France in Saudi export ban: Funke report



                            https://mediapressnews.org/eu-news-b...er-world-news/
                            Mr Le Maire insisted. We must choose power over subservience.

                            Comment

                            • LMFS
                              Rank 4 Registered User
                              • Feb 2018
                              • 520

                              This could be relevant news:

                              Turkey mulling Russias proposal for Su-35 jets - Yeni Şafak

                              https://ahvalnews.com/russia-turkey/...ets-yeni-safak
                              https://www.yenisafak.com/gundem/ve-...masada-3501681

                              So apparently the Turkish procurement authority has requested the military to evaluate the Su-35. Maybe a way to dissuade US from imposing CAATSA sanctions, maybe an indication of real interest?

                              Comment

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