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Dassault Super Mirage ACF - prototype picture !!!

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  • glitter
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Aug 2003
    • 1973

    #21
    Got it.

    Lots of new pictures about the mirage 4000 but not much infos about its performance.

    Comment

    • danger dan
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Sep 2004
      • 4

      #22
      wow

      man this would have been one cracker of a fighter, where did you get the model from?


      Originally posted by GoldenDragon
      Great stuff once again, Deino!



      Atlas

      Well, they would have if they went ahead and built the Cava

      But obviously, they were influenced by their Mirages.

      Comment

      • Srbin
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2003
        • 2137

        #23
        The Mirage-4000 could've been a Rafale some 20 years earlier.

        Comment

        • glitter
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Aug 2003
          • 1973

          #24
          It was really closer to a F-15

          Comment

          • Deino
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2000
            • 4145

            #25
            Thanks to "Lothringer" from the German "FLUGZEUGFORUM" I got the final issue no. 418 !!!

            Here are the comparetive drawings of the Mirage 4000 !!

            Deino
            ...

            He was my North, my South, my East and West,
            My working week and my Sunday rest,
            My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
            I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

            The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
            Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
            Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
            For nothing now can ever come to any good.
            -------------------------------------------------
            W.H.Auden (1945)

            Comment

            • edisonone
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2000
              • 1102

              #26
              :diablo:


              Dassault Super Mirage ACF:

              It have this almost J-8tish-look to it
              or let's say the J-8 seems to have this almost Miragy-look to it,
              whichever you would prefer to have it.

              Anyone wirh me on this assessment???

              :diablo:

              Comment

              • glitter
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Aug 2003
                • 1973

                #27
                Able to fly at Mach 2 for 18 minutes.
                What a pity we couldn't afford it.

                Comment

                • Archibaald
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jan 2006
                  • 318

                  #28
                  Hello Deino! I just found this thread (I was searching photos of the 4000).

                  You say "... and how does France reached this achievement to develop two fighters in this class in a three years time frame ???"

                  More : They were three!

                  there was a third twin-engined Mirage before the ACF : the Mirage G8 had swing-wings!
                  What is impressive with Dassault is that in the 70's , he manage to make three powerful, twin-engined prototypes, with three different kind of wings !!
                  (Swing-wings , swept-wings, delta-wings)

                  Between 1970 and 1978 Dassault made four twin-engined mirage prototypes.

                  First were the G8. They were "swing-wing" aircrafts.
                  The first was two-seater and flew on 8 may 1971. It was the Mirage G8-01, on display at Le Bourget museum.
                  The second aircraft was the G8-02 a single seater. It flew on 13th July 1972 One year later, it reach Mach 2.34, and this is still the European speed record for an aircraft!
                  It was partially scrapped; only the cockpit, undercarriage and wing subsists.

                  The ACF was a G8-02 derivative. Two big differencies : M53 engines (instead of
                  Atar-9K50 for the G8) and a swept-wing instead of variable geometry.
                  In december 1975 it was almost finished (80%) but the program was scrapped and the prototype, too
                  Mirage 2000 was choosen by the french president Giscard D'estaing on december 18th 1975. The 4000 was proposed by Dassault the same day, but rejected because it was too expensive... Nevertheless it flew as a private venture between 1979 and 1988 as you red in "le Fana"
                  The 4000 prototype is at "le bourget" museum since 1992 (but not visible)
                  The arme de l'air still wanted is twin-jet fighter, and that's why the Rafale was launched in 1988...

                  Comment

                  • Deino
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jan 2000
                    • 4145

                    #29
                    Originally posted by Archibaald
                    Hello Deino! I just found this thread (I was searching photos of the 4000).

                    .....

                    The ACF was a G8-02 derivative. Two big differencies : M53 engines (instead of Atar-9K50 for the G8) and a swept-wing instead of variable geometry.
                    In december 1975 it was almost finished (80%) but the program was scrapped and the prototype, too
                    ...

                    Thanks for these additional information .... but I only can add:


                    WHY !!!!!?????

                    Cheers, Deino
                    ...

                    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
                    My working week and my Sunday rest,
                    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
                    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

                    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
                    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
                    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
                    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
                    -------------------------------------------------
                    W.H.Auden (1945)

                    Comment

                    • TDidier
                      Member
                      • Oct 2005
                      • 81

                      #30
                      Originally posted by Deino
                      Has anyone seen it yet ... and wold be so kind to post ?????

                      Here in Germany it's quite difficult to find it

                      Thanks, Deino
                      N416 at Home, I will scan some pics tomorrow.

                      Comment

                      • Route Pack Six
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2003
                        • 114

                        #31
                        Originally posted by Arthur
                        Well, if you want to start from the beginning...
                        The MirageIII emerged from the MD.550 Mystre-Delta. Which was very roughly based on the Super Mystere, itself an evolved MD.452 Mystre, which originally was little more then a swept-winged MD.450 Ouragan...

                        But there are several designers/manufacturers who have a clear evolution in their designs. If you look at all the development prototypes from the MiG-15 to the MiG-21, you can easily see the evolution there. The same can be said if you look at Convair's deltas: from the XF-92 to the F-102 (initially with the fat fuselage), the F-106, then the B-58...
                        Then you have the F-4 Phantom which is logically developed from the F3H Demon, or Grumman's F-9F Panther which got swept wings and became the F9F Cougar, and was then to evolve as the F9F-9 which was later called F11F Tiger.

                        You have to remember of course that up until the 1960s, things were happening awfully fast in the aviation industry. Better engines, better materials, new discoveries in aerodynamics and other fields. This made it an almost round-the-clock job for the designers to keep up with the latest developments, so in stead of starting from scratch each and every time, they refined existing designs to such lengths that after some time, the original design was only hard to recognise in the 'new' model.
                        One progression:

                        I thought this was interesting to see the progression from the Hawker Sea Hawk to the Hawker Hunter:


                        This is the Hawker P.1040, the prototype for the Sea Hawk.


                        Here's a nice 1/72 model of the Sea Hawk wearing 1956 Suez markings as embarked on the HMS Eagle.


                        Above is the test aircraft Hawker P.1052, essentially a Sea Hawk with swept wings. Note that the fuselage and tailfin are pretty much stock Sea Hawk.


                        Next came the Hawker P.1081 which added swept tail surfaces/fin and cleaned up the wings as well as incorporated a aft fuselage exhaust instead of the bifurcated exhaust used on the Sea Hawk and P.1052.


                        And here's the Hawker Hunter prototype.

                        Comment

                        • fazer01
                          Member
                          • Jan 2006
                          • 82

                          #32
                          If you have quick connection check out the videos in Dassault Aviation's site.You will also find video for the Mirage 4000,Deino,if I'm not mistaken..

                          Comment

                          • TDidier
                            Member
                            • Oct 2005
                            • 81

                            #33
                            Some scan from "Le Fana de l'Aviation" N416...
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                            • Archibaald
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2006
                              • 318

                              #34
                              Sorry Deino. The ACF was unafordable for France in 1975... It was too expensive for the arme de l'air.
                              I regret that the ACF couldn't go the a museum, for example in Le Bourget
                              or better :
                              imagine if the ACF was achieve...
                              It flew in july 1976, was used as a test bed for new Mirages 2000 and 4000 (or even for the Rafale!!) Le Bourget airshow, june 1981 : ACF and 4000 side-by-side on the runway...

                              Comment

                              • Archibaald
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jan 2006
                                • 318

                                #35
                                Talking about "le fana de l'aviation" :
                                in september 1997, in 336 there's was an article about french He-162 Salamander.
                                3 flew in france from 1945 to july 1948. They were used to train pilots to jets aircrafts. Le Fana interviewed one of these pilots, who knew Marcel Dassault very well. Apparently this pilot meet Dassault in autumn 1948, some month before the first flight of the MD-450 Ouragan.
                                Dassault tell him that the Ouragan used some stuff of the old, piston-engined fighter Bloch-152 of 1940. (Bloch was Dassault former name, and the 152 was one of the best french fighters fighting against german invasion in May 1940)

                                So apparently there is a -weak- link between the piston-engined Bloch-152, the Ouragan, the Mystre IV and the Mirage III !!!

                                Comment

                                • Archibaald
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2006
                                  • 318

                                  #36
                                  The Super-Mystre flew in 1956. The MD-550 was based on the Mystere IV (the first drawing was a Mystre IV... with a delta wing).
                                  The Etendard IV (which led to the Super Etendard) was also based on the Mystere IV (with lateral air intake, and swept wings).
                                  In fact, the three big families of Dassault fighters - Mystere, Etendard, Mirage - are linked by the Mystere IV!!
                                  In 1956, were the first flights of the Mirage III-01, the Super Mystere B-2 and Etendard IV : all were Mystere IV derivatives!!

                                  Comment

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