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  • SOC
    SOC
    Registered User
    • Jan 2000
    • 13189

    #81
    I'd imagine the F-2A is heavier than an F-16 thanks to larger size of the airframe.

    "again, how are u going to launch ur UCAV, tomahawks, JDAMs etc without heavy losses? anywhere that the US can based its forces to strike at china is within striking range of PLA units. UCAVs might be good, but they wont be much use if the control room is blown up; F15s will have to fight through a s***storm before they get a chance to release their JDAMs, and US warships will have to servive staturation attacks from PLANAF fighter bombers before they can fire their tomahawks."

    Tomahawks can be fired from submarines and have a range of over 1000 NM when nuclear warheads are used, or 870 NM for a Block III UGM-109C conventional shot. If you shoot one from 600 NM away at a target 270 NM deep into China, the Chinese anti-sub platform would have to be operating 600 NM from shore, right in the middle of some USN assets most likely. Not very healthy. If an ASW aircraft is used, it has to have a radius of over 600 NM, and have good enough loiter time to even find the sub before it launches.

    AGM-86C has a range of over 700 NM, meaning your interceptor has to have a radius of over 700 NM to find the launcher.

    The conventional precision strike capability of the US military exceeds the ability of China to conduct preventative operations at those extreme distances from its shores in order to make such launches impossible. Not that we have to shoot from that far away, good luck finding a 688-class sub 200-300 NM from Chinese shores pelting targets with TLAM-Cs.
    Sean O'Connor

    Sean's Blog, now with forum
    ACIG.org Team
    Airliners.net

    Comment

    • plawolf
      aggresive member
      • Jan 2000
      • 4543

      #82
      soc:

      IIRC, i did point out sub launched tomahawks as one way the US can 'safely' strike at china in one of my eariler posts. in that post, i also pointed out that there are very few subs with this ability and each sub can only carry a reletively small load of missiles. my last post was a countinuation, so i was refering to other platforms then subs to lauch tomawhawks.


      "AGM-86C has a range of over 700 NM, meaning your interceptor has to have a radius of over 700 NM to find the launcher."


      finding the launch platform wont be the problem (subs exculed) cos of china's spysats. and once a ship or group of ships are located, a strike distance of 700NM isnt that significant, especially considering the fact that MKK/2/3s will be the most likely launch platform (with J10 and J11s as escourts). with missiles such as the CLUB, SUNBURN and C80Xs, the distance the launch a/c needs to travel is further reduced.

      even if the USN is able to protect is ships, they will be hard presses to supress the PLAAF, PLANAF without putting their carriers in serious risk, and with chinese fighters roaming the skies, the effectiveness of cruise missiles will be dromatically reduced as a slow flying, none manouvering target wont be much of a challenge to a fighter pilot.

      some will, enevatably slip through, how many is up to debate, as are their effect on the course of teh conflict.

      and we havent even touched on what might happen should the PLA take out the US GPS and otehr satilite systems (with the almost inevatable US response of the destruction of teh chinese satilities systems as well).

      but no matter how one counts the beans one thing is clear, if the US wants low casaulties, then the chances of a quick 'war' is almost zero; if they want to try and end the conflict in a shorter time span, then the US must be ready to sustain heavy losses.

      both situation holds bitter consequences for the US and its admistration, and links back to my earily arguments abt why the US would not likely want to enter into such a conflict in the first place.
      the true power of religion does not lie with the deity, it lies with the priests.

      Comment

      • Sevo
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Oct 2003
        • 19

        #83
        I did not know china has such an integrated defence rivaling America and anti-satellite weapons. How many Su-27/30 can they spare to protect sea lanes in above sencerio? Remember the massive anti-shipping attacks where the original Soviet tactic that the US Navy has planned againist for close to 2 generations i.e Aegis.

        But back to the F-2, the same composite technology is being used on the F-35. Any AESA system/or radar is going to have teething problems, but there haven't been any reports of it being cancelled due to ineffectiveness. If I am not mistaken Japan is working on it's own verison of AMRAAM, in the unlikely sceneio that the US is unwilling or unable to intregate it into the F-2. Also RAM reducing composites are also used in its construction. Its not to much of an stretch to believe the F-2 advanced avonics can incorporate advances or new weapons as they become nessecary or available.

        Comment

        • plawolf
          aggresive member
          • Jan 2000
          • 4543

          #84
          Groo:

          sorry, missed ur post before.


          "Is it the US and the world who are dependent on China, or is it China who is dependent on the US and the world? Trade flows indicate that the latter is the case. Most of the low-skilled products that China exports can be manufactured elsewhere for costs that are not prohibitive even if they are not competitive. Walmart has options that go beyond China, and most of its products are not life and death for the American consumer. On the other hand, China without the American market would collapse shortly."


          just cos sth can be made elsewhere by itself dont mean crap. yes, all the main chinese exports can be made by other nations, but as i pointed out before, they cant be made as cheaply, with as high quality and in as large quantity as the world needs them. whats more, alot of the stuff china makes are essantual to daily life for most americans and europeans as they know it, whereas american products are not.

          ppl can live quite easily without computers and games, but you would find life alot harder without shoes, clothes etc, all the little things that make life as ur used to possible.

          as for american market, well, u should know that china faired ok totally isolated from the rest of the world for thousands of years in the past, and even until very recently. economic development and the speed at which living standards are improving will no doubt decrease considerably without the US market, but thats a far cry from 'collapsing'.


          "As for Americans not fighting and dying over a few small islands, during the cold war, the US took a hard line and showed a willingness to fight a nuclear war to deter any Soviet salami slicing adventures. Why wouldn't they do the same for Japan, when their entire credibility in Asia is built on this alliance, and when their entire foreign policy for the last hundred years in Asia as had the goal of ensuring that no one power, except for themselves, ever dominates the region."


          the US isnt facing the possibility of total destruction today as it did before, and i think u would find that the american public tolerence to american casaulties has dromatically degraded in the time since the height of the cold war, and especially when fighting someone else's wars.

          as for american credibility in aisa, will didnt know there was much to start with. the US has nothing to prove to no one in aisa.

          as for US policy of 'chocking off' copetitors, well, im sure if the hawks in washington had their way, the US would be fighting china already. many in the US would just love to see the US fight china before she gets too strong. but in a sence china is already too strong as the US public will not be able to tolerate the probably US losses in a military confrontation with china unless it is for a VERY good reason, and helping japan to grap more land simply isnt it.

          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Sevo:


          "I did not know china has such an integrated defence rivaling America and anti-satellite weapons. How many Su-27/30 can they spare to protect sea lanes in above sencerio?"


          flankers and J10s will be mainly tasked with ensuring US fighters dont domonate the skies. shooting down missiles that fly straighter then target drones is a task just as easily done by the PLAAF's massive J7 and maybe even J6 fleets. (might need some help from Su30s and An50s and ground radar finding the missiles, but once found, they are as good as destroyed).



          "Remember the massive anti-shipping attacks where the original Soviet tactic that the US Navy has planned againist for close to 2 generations i.e Aegis. "


          just cos u propaired for sth dont automatically mean ur be good at sth. i have still to see any believeable evidence how even an Aegis can effectively defend itself from, say 10 supersonic anti-ship missiles coming at it at the same time.

          just look back the falklands and u'll see that systems rarely work as the yare advertised (A4s literally flew over british warships with missiles that allegidely can shoot down naval shells. )

          another more recent example would be iraq, 30+ year old crusie missiles flew right through the US intergrated air defences into kuwait without anyone knowing abt it.

          defence on warships would no doubt be alot better, but then so will the missiles they will be facing.
          the true power of religion does not lie with the deity, it lies with the priests.

          Comment

          • crobato
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2000
            • 7172

            #85
            Yes, Japan is working on its own AMRAAM, because it decided NOT to procure AMRAAM from the US. But AAM-4 is only being tested out in F-15Js, not the F-2.

            China is also working on its AMRAAM equivalent called the SD-10, and it looks its going well given its level of visibility, and even plans to export it. The J-10 also used composites, and according to one report, has a greater percentage of that than an F-16, which makes it lighter. China has been using composites in aircraft since the eighties. China has also demonstrated use of RAM coatings when such information was first released in the Zhuhai 1998 airshow. China has also developed their own helmet sighting system, MFDs, is developing a new 128x128 focal array digital IR seeker, their own engines, and even TVC nozzles.

            The area where the Japanese has a clear advantage is in networking and data support. But if the planes go one on one, I really doubt the F-2 has any advantage.
            pb::

            Comment

            • crobato
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2000
              • 7172

              #86
              "Is it the US and the world who are dependent on China, or is it China who is dependent on the US and the world? Trade flows indicate that the latter is the case. Most of the low-skilled products that China exports can be manufactured elsewhere for costs that are not prohibitive even if they are not competitive. Walmart has options that go beyond China, and most of its products are not life and death for the American consumer. On the other hand, China without the American market would collapse shortly."

              Do you study economics or something?

              It's both. The relationship of interdependency cuts both ways. Maybe it's news for you but China now manufactures one third of the world's total industrial output, and will reach 40% before the end of the decade.

              You cannot shut out 30% to 40% of the world's industrial output without massive repercussions on the world economy and stock markets.

              As for low skilled products, have you checked the items in your PC store lately? Go to any electronics store? Just about most of the PC stuff including disk drives, graphics cards, motherboards, are being made in China now. Chips are being made in China. Digital TVs, DVD players, DVD ROM and CD RW writers, are all being made in China. This goes even to the aeronautics, where Chengdu AC is making fuselage parts for Boeing.

              The fact remains a lot of foreign companies made major investments in China---China being the top FDI attractor in the world right now, and you simply cannot transplant the immense investments elsewhere. Understand this too, as much as 11% (and growing) of the US GDP is attributed to the resale of Chinese made products. For one dollar of imported Chinese made product, the US makes four dollars.

              So why the FDI investment? It's not because China is being pursued as a factory, but as an immense market of its own. With the world's economies in a slump, why does China's economy still expands in a breathtaking pace? All because of a sweltering internal demand---a booming internal market and consumption---which even its own manufacturing cannot completely supply. Tha's why China absorbed nearly 300 billion worth of imports as well. This massive market is even more IMPORTANT to the US and US companies than just the stuff China produces.

              Boeing for example, has projected that China will need 2,400 civilian planes alone in the next ten years. Wonder why every airplane producer in the world is rushing into this market, including Brazil's Embraer.

              Add to this too, China is buying US Treasury bonds---it has accumulated over 125 billion right now, a lot of it just in the last two years alone. That is a major boost for the US in helping to pay off its deficits incurred in its war against terror. How do you expect the US to fight a war without a financial backer---and a war with China will produce a far more costly bill, which the US cannot finance with Treasure bonds because China will unload its bonds, causing other countries like Japan to rapidly unload theirs. Just as the bond markets are crashing, so will the main stock market, because the world cannot see 1/3rd of its industrial output go up in air, and especially the NASDAQ because of the dependency of the information technology industry with Chinese hardware products. Soon you will be seeing something that makes the crash of '29 look like a minor accident.

              There is one word that can describe such a war is ECONOMIC SUICIDE in civilization threatening proportions.
              pb::

              Comment

              • topspeed
                Get on uppah !
                • Jan 2009
                • 2660

                #87
                There are interestings polls here at the memory lane from the time when aircombat fighters looked like aircombat fighters !

                I guess I am getting old.
                If it looks good, it will fly good !
                -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


                http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

                Comment

                • Y-20 Bacon
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2013
                  • 2176

                  #88
                  f-2 had a working AESA for nearly 20 years and is going through a 2nd generation upgrade.
                  J-10 has no AESA and the newest one has a PESA. it can't carry the same maritime strike load as the F-2. Its probably a better raw performer but probably has half the service life.

                  Comment

                  • topspeed
                    Get on uppah !
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 2660

                    #89
                    How many F-2s did Japan self defence force's AF loose in the recent Tsunami ?
                    If it looks good, it will fly good !
                    -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


                    http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

                    Comment

                    • topspeed
                      Get on uppah !
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 2660

                      #90
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2

                      This says 12 totally destroyed at 18 altogether out of 94 built F-2s...6 will be repaired.
                      If it looks good, it will fly good !
                      -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


                      http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

                      Comment

                      • ocay84
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jun 2008
                        • 181

                        #91
                        J-10B vs F-2 will be more logical comparison. Chinese avionic technology I belive is now comparable to Japan F-2A technology

                        Comment

                        • Y-20 Bacon
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2013
                          • 2176

                          #92
                          Originally posted by ocay84 View Post
                          J-10B vs F-2 will be more logical comparison. Chinese avionic technology I belive is now comparable to Japan F-2A technology
                          sounds about right. i was curious and read up on f-2 updates
                          as of 2013...

                          F-2 will be upgraded
                          AESA JPG-1 radar to be upgraded to AESA JPG-2
                          so it can better utilize AAM-4B, an aesa radar equipped missile
                          AAM-4B is supposed to have a 20-40% range increase over the AAM-4A which is used in the F-15DJ

                          Comment

                          • topspeed
                            Get on uppah !
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 2660

                            #93
                            They may be the most lethal single engine ac:s around.

                            F-2 is capable like F/A-18 C/D, but lot faster.

                            Both can supercruise...but how fast on supercruise ?
                            If it looks good, it will fly good !
                            -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


                            http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

                            Comment

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