Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Franco-German next generation fighter

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Sintra
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Aug 2007
    • 3849

    By parts, the oldest Hornets at Gando will almost certainly be replaced in 2025 by a follow up batch of Typhoons. The AV-8B's of the Armada are slated for a replacement in 2034, that's the F-35B or nothing at all, mind you, very recently the "nothing at all" was a very distinct possibility, that decision will be taken a decade from now. The rest of the Hornets will be replaced in the thirties by whatever comes out of this new program. That's more or less what can be gleamed from the Spanish journos. If any of our Spanish friends here have more up to date news, much obliged.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Sintra; 12th February 2019, 14:02.
    sigpic

    Comment

    • TomcatViP
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Nov 2011
      • 6112

      Dirke Hoke, head of Airbus Defence and Space:

      I consider it extremely dangerous to develop a system like FCAS (the Franco-German fighter programme) without the British, he said, noting that potential order quantities would rise if Britain participated, making future aircraft more competitive.
      Source:
      Reuters.com

      Comment

      • djcross
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2000
        • 5456

        Lesson learned...Whatever the FCAS operational system becomes, I hope the requirements are well defined and the partnership/teaming concept prevents one (or more) participants from disrupting the development and build cycle (e.g. Eurofighter).

        Comment

        • RALL
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Aug 2017
          • 204

          Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
          Dirke Hoke, head of Airbus Defence and Space:



          Source:
          Reuters.com


          There are a big problem. The TEMPO.

          UK and Italy have F-35 A. France, Germany and possibly Spain no. So, those countries need next fighter generation being developed fastly, UK or Italy does not need, they have their needs totally covered for next 30 years.

          So i dont see easy both proyects will join together on next future.
          Last edited by RALL; 13th February 2019, 14:55.

          Comment

          • RALL
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Aug 2017
            • 204

            Originally posted by Sintra View Post
            By parts, the oldest Hornets at Gando will almost certainly be replaced in 2025 by a follow up batch of Typhoons. The AV-8B's of the Armada are slated for a replacement in 2034, that's the F-35B or nothing at all, mind you, very recently the "nothing at all" was a very distinct possibility, that decision will be taken a decade from now. The rest of the Hornets will be replaced in the thirties by whatever comes out of this new program. That's more or less what can be gleamed from the Spanish journos. If any of our Spanish friends here have more up to date news, much obliged.

            Cheers
            2035? its many years....

            2025-2027 it is dates more reasonable for to replace harriers.

            https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-vida-...3_noticia.html

            In 2020 USA tells good bye to its Harrier fleet, and Spain depend of Usa for get spares for its fleet. So, it will be a problem from 2020 and forward. I dont think Spain will can to operate harriers more beyond from 2025.

            Spain needs get decition on F-35B maybe next year, and do not wait more, because need 3-4 years for get first units.

            Comment

            • RALL
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Aug 2017
              • 204

              Originally posted by halloweene View Post

              i love those bold assessments. Everything depends on context,mission types, doctrina etc.
              5th generation fighters are a very big step forward comparing with legacy fighters, as big step as Me-262 was comparing it with piston fighters. I see it like this. Of course, i talk about real 5 th generation, a real VLO, not LO like SH, or EF.

              Comment

              • swerve
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jun 2005
                • 13610

                Originally posted by RALL View Post



                There are a big problem. The TEMPO.

                UK and Italy have F-35 A. France, Germany and possibly Spain no. So, those countries need next fighter generation being developed fastly, UK or Italy does not need, they have their needs totally covered for next 30 years.

                So i dont see easy both proyects will join together on next future.
                F-35B doesn't totally cover the UK's needs for the next 30 years.
                Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                Justinian

                Comment

                • JSR
                  JSR
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Aug 2011
                  • 4978


                  Dirke Hoke, head of Airbus Defence and Space:

                  I consider it extremely dangerous to develop a system like FCAS (the Franco-German fighter programme) without the British, he said, noting that potential order quantities would rise if Britain participated, making future aircraft more competitive.




                  No orders will not rise with more countries entering into the project. infact it will give reason to Germany to dial back its own orders and concentrate on the intermediate components and use Germanic efficiency to bankrupt other EU suppliers to the project.
                  now in past UK managed to export Tornadoes and EF that help the project in long term sustainability. but this not likely to get repeated. infact it will be in Germany interest to keep export controls to control France or anyother country not getting any money from anywhere else so not challenge its EU dominance.
                  Germany has that side business of wealth creation that will multiply in coming decades.

                  https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/m...nt-supply-deal




                  Comment

                  • Sintra
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Aug 2007
                    • 3849

                    Originally posted by RALL View Post

                    2035? its many years....

                    2025-2027 it is dates more reasonable for to replace harriers.

                    https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-vida-...3_noticia.html

                    In 2020 USA tells good bye to its Harrier fleet, and Spain depend of Usa for get spares for its fleet. So, it will be a problem from 2020 and forward. I dont think Spain will can to operate harriers more beyond from 2025.

                    Spain needs get decition on F-35B maybe next year, and do not wait more, because need 3-4 years for get first units.
                    Honestly, dont remember where ive seen 2034, might have mixed it with 2024, that was the old out of date for the Armada Harriers, but this fairly is recent, it points to 2030:

                    https://abcblogs.abc.es/tierra-mar-a...2A9FEF9D2.jpeg

                    And Spain does not have a replacement program for the Harrier, theres no program going. Theres one for part of the Hornet fleet, almost certainly another batch of Typhoons, another for the C101 replacement, and the SCAF, theres nothing else.
                    Last edited by Sintra; 13th February 2019, 19:04.
                    sigpic

                    Comment

                    • Sintra
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Aug 2007
                      • 3849

                      Originally posted by RALL View Post



                      There are a big problem. The TEMPO.

                      UK and Italy have F-35 A. France, Germany and possibly Spain no. So, those countries need next fighter generation being developed fastly, UK or Italy does not need, they have their needs totally covered for next 30 years.

                      So i dont see easy both proyects will join together on next future.
                      A) The UK at the moment does not intend to acquire the F-35A
                      B) The one who happens to have asked for a next generation replacement (AKA "Tempest") for their Typhoon T1 fleet was Gavin Williamson
                      sigpic

                      Comment

                      • RALL
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Aug 2017
                        • 204

                        Originally posted by Sintra View Post

                        A) The UK at the moment does not intend to acquire the F-35A
                        B) The one who happens to have asked for a next generation replacement (AKA "Tempest") for their Typhoon T1 fleet was Gavin Williamson
                        Ok, but it continue being F-35, version B. And they can buy in some moment more F-35...A or more B.

                        ***************

                        Officially Spain have joined program.

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	Opera-Instant-nea-2019-02-14-191026-twitter-com.png Views:	0 Size:	322.4 KB ID:	3851147
                        Last edited by RALL; 14th February 2019, 18:19.

                        Comment

                        • Marcellogo
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jun 2014
                          • 1839

                          Originally posted by RALL View Post



                          There are a big problem. The TEMPO.

                          UK and Italy have F-35 A. France, Germany and possibly Spain no. So, those countries need next fighter generation being developed fastly, UK or Italy does not need, they have their needs totally covered for next 30 years.

                          So i don't see easy both proyects will join together on next future.
                          RALL rest assured that no one in my own country's airforce would even think at the F-35 as a substitute for Typhoon (that we are actually still acquiring) or as an alternative to new gen A2A fighter.

                          The Lighting II are here to take the place of Tornado and Ghibli i.e. to drop bombs and cruise missiles, no place for multirole (or better said Jack of all trades) fighters in AMI.
                          France got Rafales so their actual needs are covered, it's mainly Germany that have a problem of line obsolescence but because it lacks a substitute for Tornado and not for Typhoon.

                          Comment

                          • halloweene
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2012
                            • 4351

                            5th generation fighters are a very big step forward comparing with legacy fighters, as big step as Me-262 was comparing it with piston fighters. I see it like this. Of course, i talk about real 5 th generation, a real VLO, not LO like SH, or EF.
                            And i take it for what it is : assessment without any argumentation.

                            Comment

                            • RALL
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Aug 2017
                              • 204

                              Originally posted by halloweene View Post

                              And i take it for what it is : assessment without any argumentation.
                              Erick Hartmann the most famous combat ace in history downed 352 enemies airplanes, He said that most of the time the enemy never knew of his presence until it was too late. He survived to the war. This axiom today takes even more strength with 5th generation fighters. You can not shoot down an airplane that your sensors do not see or it is later when you can see it. So, a very low observable airplane take a very big advantage above all legacy fighters. It is simple.

                              Comment

                              • St. John
                                Rank 4 Registered User
                                • Jan 2018
                                • 568

                                Originally posted by RALL View Post

                                Erick Hartmann the most famous combat ace in history downed 352 enemies airplanes, He said that most of the time the enemy never knew of his presence until it was too late. He survived to the war. This axiom today takes even more strength with 5th generation fighters. You can not shoot down an airplane that your sensors do not see or it is later when you can see it. So, a very low observable airplane take a very big advantage above all legacy fighters. It is simple.
                                Yep. Studies after Vietnam showed the same thing.

                                Comment

                                • XB-70
                                  Rank 4 Registered User
                                  • May 2018
                                  • 354

                                  RALL - He has the most victories, yes. But the most famous is probably Richthofen. Even people who don't know who that is have generally heard of the Red Baron. But the point you make is fine. Sensors, stealth and communications have become the big three.

                                  Comment

                                  • LMFS
                                    Rank 4 Registered User
                                    • Feb 2018
                                    • 531

                                    Most of the recent victories in BVR combat are due to complete unawareness of the enemy till the last moment, due to the attacking planes remaining passive/outside the search cone of the enemie's radars and being guided by AWACS. Now, how would a lonely fighter, VLO or not, manage to attack a modern adversary from far BVR without being noticed (by turning on its radar or providing mid-course guidance to its missiles) is a mystery to me. Any modern fighter would be aware by the moment of launch (bay opening) the latest that he is under attack, which would allow him to counter it and reduce drastically its effectiveness. Otherwise you have, as is usually the case, a third world adversary without RWR, or even functioning radars or any kind of ESM/ECM suit being flanked by modern fighters guided by the AWACS deployed to the theater in undisputed air superiority. So I feel much of the tactical superiority which is attributed to VLO is in reality a consequence of AWACS and utter numbers / technological air dominance in general. Sorry for the off-topic but I think the discussion is worth it...

                                    Comment

                                    • eagle1
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Feb 2011
                                      • 1125

                                      Spot on LFMS. VLO is not the magic thing anymore like in the 90's/2000's. It is still valuable but it is just one element in the survivability mix. Multispectrum sensors, datafusion and datalinks of multiple platforms considerably erods the advantage of stealth. Still useful but no silver bullet.

                                      + modern ECM would give a hard time to an incoming EM missile forcing to close to the threat.

                                      Comment

                                      • djcross
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2000
                                        • 5456

                                        Why assume VLO airplanes operate alone? F-22 certainly does not and it has been known for years that F-35 was designed to fight as a 4-ship. ESM is the primary sensor and is capable of generating a weapons quality targeting solution. You can guess the detectable last chance IFF ping before the missile shot is not going to come from the shooter, but from a flight mate in a safe location and completely different bearing. Look right while getting sucker punched from the left.

                                        Don't underestimate the ECCM of the missile, its ability to switch to HOJ and missile end game support from any of the flight members. That is why the latest AAMs have 2-way data links.

                                        Every move has well thought through counter moves. Don't be that medieval knight who enters the battle expecting his shiny ECM armor to protect him from the long bow and musketoon. The best way to survive is to remain unseen until it is too late for an unwary opponent to react (a la Richtofen and Hartman).
                                        Last edited by djcross; 16th February 2019, 12:05.

                                        Comment

                                        • halloweene
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2012
                                          • 4351

                                          That's one of the problems of F-35 its been designed like an i-F-35, in order to operate in a very closes ecosystem.

                                          Comment

                                          Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                          Collapse

                                           

                                          Working...
                                          X