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  • TomcatViP
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Nov 2011
    • 5759

    Google failed me (again)

    Marcellogo : I have explained enough what have been my reaction* and trait d'humour. If we hadn't the Rafale Gangsta squating on the couch here, this would not have been discussed more than one minute. I wonder why some are here, on an aviation forum, with so much taste for endless catfight. Isn't there any Disco where they can backbite at each others while adjusting their lipstick? So enough of this.

    And by the way I don't need help reading French, don't be ridiculous.

    *and in the very details you just suggested
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 9th February 2019, 23:00.

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    • TomcatViP
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Nov 2011
      • 5759

      in Air Force Magazine

      The goal is to have a deployable system in 2040. The companies and two militaries have two years to study the architecture and systems based on the agreement.


      Other countries, such as Spain, have signed on to be observers on the FCAS program, though there is potential they could become participants and try to field the aircraft as well, Lavigne said. The development also needs to focus on interoperability with allied aircraft once fielded, he said. Individual aircraft from allies bring separate strengths to a fight and will work best together when integrated well.


      In rugby, I like to play with the best guy on my team, he said. So we have to be individually very good. F-35, F-22, Typhoon, Rafale. All are good players and theyve got differences.

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      • RALL
        Rank 4 Registered User
        • Aug 2017
        • 129

        Next thursday, Spain will join to France and Germany on next generation fighter program.

        Robles firma esta semana con sus homlogas francesa y alemana la incorporacin al programa FCAS

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        • Marcellogo
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jun 2014
          • 1773

          Move was expected, Spain is involved with Airbus consortium and so have a convenience to side with them.
          Same with Sweden with UK Tempest,
          My own country would probably side with them also, actually we are already in it through Leonardo UK from the beginning.
          Our government is just too recent and busy to seriously think about it. Also because we are waiting the Thing-not-to be-mentioned-in-this-forum to happen in order to have a clearer idea of the legal framework we would need to operate in.

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          • RALL
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • Aug 2017
            • 129

            Originally posted by Marcellogo View Post
            Move was expected, Spain is involved with Airbus consortium and so have a convenience to side with them.
            Same with Sweden with UK Tempest,
            My own country would probably side with them also, actually we are already in it through Leonardo UK from the beginning.
            Our government is just too recent and busy to seriously think about it. Also because we are waiting the Thing-not-to be-mentioned-in-this-forum to happen in order to have a clearer idea of the legal framework we would need to operate in.
            Surely Spain will buy F-35B for its Aircraft carrier fleet to replace AV-8 Harrier, but after this decition (joining program with France and Germany) F-35 A will be not bought for to replace the old F/A 18. I think will be bought more EFs (tranche 3) until new european 5 fighter generation will arrive. This will be anounced on this year too.

            Really I think it is bette solution to buy F-35 A and not more EFs, and militar oficials think too, but will be a political decition....as in Germany happened.
            Last edited by RALL; 11th February 2019, 21:41.

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            • SpudmanWP
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2009
              • 5137

              STOVL is not in the cards for any new "European" fighter. F-35B is their only viable option for their carrier.
              "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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              • halloweene
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2012
                • 4000

                Originally posted by RALL View Post

                Surely Spain will buy F-35B for its Aircraft carrier fleet to replace AV-8 Harrier, but after this decition (joining program with France and Germany) F-35 A will be not bought for to replace the old F/A 18. I think will be bought more EFs (tranche 3) until new european 5 fighter generation will arrive. This will be anounced on this year too.

                Really I think it is bette solution to buy F-35 A and not more EFs, and militar oficials think too, but will be a political decition....as in Germany happened.
                Either that or make Juan Carlos STOBAR.

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                • bandua
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Sep 2012
                  • 58

                  Most likely outcome: no fighters for the spanish navy after AV8B. Not a bad outcome from my point of view. I expect more Eurofighters which makes sense considering logistics and industrial considerations. After that, we will probably try to get into the FCAS, unless the conditions for joining them are far too bad in which case me might consider a mature F35 or even a possible British alternative. As usual budget constraints will have a say in the whole business.

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                  • Scooter
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jan 2000
                    • 11831

                    Originally posted by bandua View Post
                    Most likely outcome: no fighters for the spanish navy after AV8B. Not a bad outcome from my point of view. I expect more Eurofighters which makes sense considering logistics and industrial considerations. After that, we will probably try to get into the FCAS, unless the conditions for joining them are far too bad in which case me might consider a mature F35 or even a possible British alternative. As usual budget constraints will have a say in the whole business.
                    Not a bad out come! What??? So, Spain should maintain a fleet of obsolete fighters for another 20+ years. Until the NGF is available!

                    Also, the Spanish Navy is very influential. So, I wouldn't rule out getting at least a modest number of F-35B's for the Juan Carlos.
                    F-35 Lightning II

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                    • RALL
                      Rank 4 Registered User
                      • Aug 2017
                      • 129

                      Originally posted by halloweene View Post

                      Either that or make Juan Carlos STOBAR.
                      Thats right.

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                      • RALL
                        Rank 4 Registered User
                        • Aug 2017
                        • 129

                        Originally posted by bandua View Post
                        Most likely outcome: no fighters for the spanish navy after AV8B. Not a bad outcome from my point of view. I expect more Eurofighters which makes sense considering logistics and industrial considerations. After that, we will probably try to get into the FCAS, unless the conditions for joining them are far too bad in which case me might consider a mature F35 or even a possible British alternative. As usual budget constraints will have a say in the whole business.
                        F-35B will be, sure. Armada will have fighters as always and F-35B is the only option.

                        EFs tranche 3 is 4+ generation. It is not comparable to any platform 5 generation as F-35. And really, is more expesive item than F-35. So, only from political decition can explain this. Generals want F-35 A because they told it, and it is the best solution get a fleet with EFs+F-35 waiting 20 years for replace old EFs for new 5 european stealth fighter. Ef and F-35 are complementary items and F-35 can help to EF to be more lethal (Uk and Italy aproach this way). And for to replace an attack fighter as F/A-18 the best solution is other attack fighter as F-35. EF was not designed as an attack fighter, but superiory defence fighter. It can not make so good functions than especialized attack fighter.

                        So, the best option from a funtional point, operative point, money point is the F-35. If finally decide buy more EFs (i think so) is only because political decitions. And maybe on this moment France and germany are pushing for it.
                        Last edited by RALL; 12th February 2019, 09:50.

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                        • Scooter
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 11831

                          Originally posted by RALL View Post

                          F-35B will be, sure. Armada will have fighters as always and F-35B is the only option.

                          EFs tranche 3 is 4+ generation. It is not comparable to any platform 5 generation as F-35. And really, is more expesive item than F-35. So, only from political decition can explain this. Generals want F-35 A because they told it, and it is the best solution get a fleet with EFs+F-35 waiting 20 years for replace old EFs for new 5 european stealth fighter. Ef and F-35 are complementary items and F-35 can help to EF to be more lethal (Uk and Italy aproach this way). And for to replace an attack fighter as F/A-18 the best solution is other attack fighter as F-35. EF was not designed as an attack fighter, but superiory defence fighter. It can not make so good functions than especialized attack fighter.

                          So, the best option from a funtional point, operative point, money point is the F-35. If finally decide buy more EFs (i think so) is only because political decitions. And maybe on this moment France and germany are pushing for it.
                          Yes, no conflict here like in Germany. As the F-35A's could replace the Hornets and the F-35B's the Harriers. While, keeping the Typhoons until the NGF comes online. (Win-Win)


                          Honestly, this idea a win for the F-35 is somehow a loss for the NGF is "absurd". (different Generations)

                          Last edited by Scooter; 12th February 2019, 10:17.
                          F-35 Lightning II

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                          • halloweene
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2012
                            • 4000

                            EFs tranche 3 is 4+ generation. It is not comparable to any platform 5 generation as F-35
                            i love those bold assessments. Everything depends on context,mission types, doctrina etc.

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                            • Sintra
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Aug 2007
                              • 3793

                              By parts, the oldest Hornets at Gando will almost certainly be replaced in 2025 by a follow up batch of Typhoons. The AV-8B's of the Armada are slated for a replacement in 2034, that's the F-35B or nothing at all, mind you, very recently the "nothing at all" was a very distinct possibility, that decision will be taken a decade from now. The rest of the Hornets will be replaced in the thirties by whatever comes out of this new program. That's more or less what can be gleamed from the Spanish journos. If any of our Spanish friends here have more up to date news, much obliged.

                              Cheers
                              Last edited by Sintra; 12th February 2019, 14:02.
                              sigpic

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                              • TomcatViP
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Nov 2011
                                • 5759

                                Dirke Hoke, head of Airbus Defence and Space:

                                I consider it extremely dangerous to develop a system like FCAS (the Franco-German fighter programme) without the British, he said, noting that potential order quantities would rise if Britain participated, making future aircraft more competitive.
                                Source:
                                Reuters.com

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                                • djcross
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2000
                                  • 5362

                                  Lesson learned...Whatever the FCAS operational system becomes, I hope the requirements are well defined and the partnership/teaming concept prevents one (or more) participants from disrupting the development and build cycle (e.g. Eurofighter).

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                                  • RALL
                                    Rank 4 Registered User
                                    • Aug 2017
                                    • 129

                                    Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                                    Dirke Hoke, head of Airbus Defence and Space:



                                    Source:
                                    Reuters.com


                                    There are a big problem. The TEMPO.

                                    UK and Italy have F-35 A. France, Germany and possibly Spain no. So, those countries need next fighter generation being developed fastly, UK or Italy does not need, they have their needs totally covered for next 30 years.

                                    So i dont see easy both proyects will join together on next future.
                                    Last edited by RALL; 13th February 2019, 14:55.

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                                    • RALL
                                      Rank 4 Registered User
                                      • Aug 2017
                                      • 129

                                      Originally posted by Sintra View Post
                                      By parts, the oldest Hornets at Gando will almost certainly be replaced in 2025 by a follow up batch of Typhoons. The AV-8B's of the Armada are slated for a replacement in 2034, that's the F-35B or nothing at all, mind you, very recently the "nothing at all" was a very distinct possibility, that decision will be taken a decade from now. The rest of the Hornets will be replaced in the thirties by whatever comes out of this new program. That's more or less what can be gleamed from the Spanish journos. If any of our Spanish friends here have more up to date news, much obliged.

                                      Cheers
                                      2035? its many years....

                                      2025-2027 it is dates more reasonable for to replace harriers.

                                      https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-vida-...3_noticia.html

                                      In 2020 USA tells good bye to its Harrier fleet, and Spain depend of Usa for get spares for its fleet. So, it will be a problem from 2020 and forward. I dont think Spain will can to operate harriers more beyond from 2025.

                                      Spain needs get decition on F-35B maybe next year, and do not wait more, because need 3-4 years for get first units.

                                      Comment

                                      • RALL
                                        Rank 4 Registered User
                                        • Aug 2017
                                        • 129

                                        Originally posted by halloweene View Post

                                        i love those bold assessments. Everything depends on context,mission types, doctrina etc.
                                        5th generation fighters are a very big step forward comparing with legacy fighters, as big step as Me-262 was comparing it with piston fighters. I see it like this. Of course, i talk about real 5 th generation, a real VLO, not LO like SH, or EF.

                                        Comment

                                        • swerve
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jun 2005
                                          • 13592

                                          Originally posted by RALL View Post



                                          There are a big problem. The TEMPO.

                                          UK and Italy have F-35 A. France, Germany and possibly Spain no. So, those countries need next fighter generation being developed fastly, UK or Italy does not need, they have their needs totally covered for next 30 years.

                                          So i dont see easy both proyects will join together on next future.
                                          F-35B doesn't totally cover the UK's needs for the next 30 years.
                                          Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                                          Justinian

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