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  • eagle1
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Feb 2011
    • 1109

    https://www.bfmtv.com/economie/la-fr...r-1627552.html

    First contract for SCAF devlopment has been signed yesterday february 6 between France and Germany

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    • ForzaHexagone
      Registered User
      • Feb 2019
      • 1

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      • stealthflanker
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Sep 2015
        • 923

        now im curious if German have its own vision on what's look alike. Or maybe it's the one in Airbus Video. The engine would probably "hybrid" between whatever German learns with EJ-2000 and French M-88.

        Given the vision of this aircraft. This might entail very sophisticated high bandwidth communication system. The front end would be the AESA radar with suitable waveform for the task. Air datalinking can occupy up to 33% duty cycle at the heaviest point, this might deny the radar to conduct search tho. So more realistic value should be bit lower maybe 10%. The required power would be small, only as high as needed to counter weather. It will have range to at least 200-250 km against typical fighter like Russian one to allow employment of Meteor at very long range if needed. For controlling UAV tho i would expect 3 faced arrays like Russian approach with Su-57. Should there only 1 nose array however that might constrain the employment of high bandwidth datalink but shuldnt be a problem given the UAV will likely always be at front.

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        • Sintra
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Aug 2007
          • 3818

          Originally posted by stealthflanker View Post
          now im curious if German have its own vision on what's look alike. Or maybe it's the one in Airbus Video.
          Click image for larger version

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          Mind you, this was "designed" around the specifications for a Tornado replacement.

          Originally posted by stealthflanker View Post
          The engine would probably "hybrid" between whatever German learns with EJ-2000 and French M-88.
          Clean sheet



          sigpic

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          • XB-70
            Rank 3 Registered User
            • May 2018
            • 187

            TomcatViP - It's "Do not go gentle into that good night" and "Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

            Sintra - Definitely a clean sheet. It makes about as much sense to try to power a 2040s era fighter with a souped up M88 as it does to try to power a Raptor with a souped up Rolls Royce Nene. A lot of new innovations are going to be made in that time.

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            • TomcatViP
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Nov 2011
              • 5860

              Oh yeah thank you. I am even more embarrassed that I read it again probably no more than a couple of weeks ago

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              • halloweene
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2012
                • 4099

                Originally posted by stealthflanker View Post
                now im curious if German have its own vision on what's look alike. Or maybe it's the one in Airbus Video. The engine would probably "hybrid" between whatever German learns with EJ-2000 and French M-88.

                Given the vision of this aircraft. This might entail very sophisticated high bandwidth communication system. The front end would be the AESA radar with suitable waveform for the task. Air datalinking can occupy up to 33% duty cycle at the heaviest point, this might deny the radar to conduct search tho. So more realistic value should be bit lower maybe 10%. The required power would be small, only as high as needed to counter weather. It will have range to at least 200-250 km against typical fighter like Russian one to allow employment of Meteor at very long range if needed. For controlling UAV tho i would expect 3 faced arrays like Russian approach with Su-57. Should there only 1 nose array however that might constrain the employment of high bandwidth datalink but shuldnt be a problem given the UAV will likely always be at front.
                We have some more information now. First 2*9T engines (power generation). conformal tile based GaN arrays. (multiple functions). All in all, a communication ser ve " la " F-35, but within an open system (not " la f-35) including satellites, AWCQ/tankers, UCAV, expandable intelligent "carriers" , intelligent swarms etc. The idea is to build a system FROM a core and not link platforms after they are built. hey scorpion (arme de terre) is integrated, aswell asMN. Next step is RAfale, probably EFT etc.

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                • Aurel
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Oct 2003
                  • 1176

                  I'm wondering how much RR input we will see in the new engine. They bought MTU and ITP and then this: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKBN1HU2D9

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                  • TomcatViP
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Nov 2011
                    • 5860

                    in Air Force Magazine

                    The goal is to have a deployable system in 2040. The companies and two militaries have two years to study the architecture and systems based on the agreement.


                    Other countries, such as Spain, have signed on to be observers on the FCAS program, though there is potential they could become participants and try to field the aircraft as well, Lavigne said. The development also needs to focus on interoperability with allied aircraft once fielded, he said. Individual aircraft from allies bring separate strengths to a fight and will work best together when integrated well.


                    In rugby, I like to play with the best guy on my team, he said. So we have to be individually very good. F-35, F-22, Typhoon, Rafale. All are good players and theyve got differences.

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                    • RALL
                      Rank 4 Registered User
                      • Aug 2017
                      • 131

                      Next thursday, Spain will join to France and Germany on next generation fighter program.

                      Robles firma esta semana con sus homlogas francesa y alemana la incorporacin al programa FCAS

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                      • Marcellogo
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jun 2014
                        • 1787

                        Move was expected, Spain is involved with Airbus consortium and so have a convenience to side with them.
                        Same with Sweden with UK Tempest,
                        My own country would probably side with them also, actually we are already in it through Leonardo UK from the beginning.
                        Our government is just too recent and busy to seriously think about it. Also because we are waiting the Thing-not-to be-mentioned-in-this-forum to happen in order to have a clearer idea of the legal framework we would need to operate in.

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                        • RALL
                          Rank 4 Registered User
                          • Aug 2017
                          • 131

                          Originally posted by Marcellogo View Post
                          Move was expected, Spain is involved with Airbus consortium and so have a convenience to side with them.
                          Same with Sweden with UK Tempest,
                          My own country would probably side with them also, actually we are already in it through Leonardo UK from the beginning.
                          Our government is just too recent and busy to seriously think about it. Also because we are waiting the Thing-not-to be-mentioned-in-this-forum to happen in order to have a clearer idea of the legal framework we would need to operate in.
                          Surely Spain will buy F-35B for its Aircraft carrier fleet to replace AV-8 Harrier, but after this decition (joining program with France and Germany) F-35 A will be not bought for to replace the old F/A 18. I think will be bought more EFs (tranche 3) until new european 5 fighter generation will arrive. This will be anounced on this year too.

                          Really I think it is bette solution to buy F-35 A and not more EFs, and militar oficials think too, but will be a political decition....as in Germany happened.
                          Last edited by RALL; 11th February 2019, 21:41.

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                          • SpudmanWP
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 5169

                            STOVL is not in the cards for any new "European" fighter. F-35B is their only viable option for their carrier.
                            "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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                            • halloweene
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2012
                              • 4099

                              Originally posted by RALL View Post

                              Surely Spain will buy F-35B for its Aircraft carrier fleet to replace AV-8 Harrier, but after this decition (joining program with France and Germany) F-35 A will be not bought for to replace the old F/A 18. I think will be bought more EFs (tranche 3) until new european 5 fighter generation will arrive. This will be anounced on this year too.

                              Really I think it is bette solution to buy F-35 A and not more EFs, and militar oficials think too, but will be a political decition....as in Germany happened.
                              Either that or make Juan Carlos STOBAR.

                              Comment

                              • bandua
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Sep 2012
                                • 62

                                Most likely outcome: no fighters for the spanish navy after AV8B. Not a bad outcome from my point of view. I expect more Eurofighters which makes sense considering logistics and industrial considerations. After that, we will probably try to get into the FCAS, unless the conditions for joining them are far too bad in which case me might consider a mature F35 or even a possible British alternative. As usual budget constraints will have a say in the whole business.

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                                • Scooter
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2000
                                  • 11909

                                  Originally posted by bandua View Post
                                  Most likely outcome: no fighters for the spanish navy after AV8B. Not a bad outcome from my point of view. I expect more Eurofighters which makes sense considering logistics and industrial considerations. After that, we will probably try to get into the FCAS, unless the conditions for joining them are far too bad in which case me might consider a mature F35 or even a possible British alternative. As usual budget constraints will have a say in the whole business.
                                  Not a bad out come! What??? So, Spain should maintain a fleet of obsolete fighters for another 20+ years. Until the NGF is available!

                                  Also, the Spanish Navy is very influential. So, I wouldn't rule out getting at least a modest number of F-35B's for the Juan Carlos.
                                  F-35 Lightning II

                                  Comment

                                  • RALL
                                    Rank 4 Registered User
                                    • Aug 2017
                                    • 131

                                    Originally posted by halloweene View Post

                                    Either that or make Juan Carlos STOBAR.
                                    Thats right.

                                    Comment

                                    • RALL
                                      Rank 4 Registered User
                                      • Aug 2017
                                      • 131

                                      Originally posted by bandua View Post
                                      Most likely outcome: no fighters for the spanish navy after AV8B. Not a bad outcome from my point of view. I expect more Eurofighters which makes sense considering logistics and industrial considerations. After that, we will probably try to get into the FCAS, unless the conditions for joining them are far too bad in which case me might consider a mature F35 or even a possible British alternative. As usual budget constraints will have a say in the whole business.
                                      F-35B will be, sure. Armada will have fighters as always and F-35B is the only option.

                                      EFs tranche 3 is 4+ generation. It is not comparable to any platform 5 generation as F-35. And really, is more expesive item than F-35. So, only from political decition can explain this. Generals want F-35 A because they told it, and it is the best solution get a fleet with EFs+F-35 waiting 20 years for replace old EFs for new 5 european stealth fighter. Ef and F-35 are complementary items and F-35 can help to EF to be more lethal (Uk and Italy aproach this way). And for to replace an attack fighter as F/A-18 the best solution is other attack fighter as F-35. EF was not designed as an attack fighter, but superiory defence fighter. It can not make so good functions than especialized attack fighter.

                                      So, the best option from a funtional point, operative point, money point is the F-35. If finally decide buy more EFs (i think so) is only because political decitions. And maybe on this moment France and germany are pushing for it.
                                      Last edited by RALL; 12th February 2019, 09:50.

                                      Comment

                                      • Scooter
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2000
                                        • 11909

                                        Originally posted by RALL View Post

                                        F-35B will be, sure. Armada will have fighters as always and F-35B is the only option.

                                        EFs tranche 3 is 4+ generation. It is not comparable to any platform 5 generation as F-35. And really, is more expesive item than F-35. So, only from political decition can explain this. Generals want F-35 A because they told it, and it is the best solution get a fleet with EFs+F-35 waiting 20 years for replace old EFs for new 5 european stealth fighter. Ef and F-35 are complementary items and F-35 can help to EF to be more lethal (Uk and Italy aproach this way). And for to replace an attack fighter as F/A-18 the best solution is other attack fighter as F-35. EF was not designed as an attack fighter, but superiory defence fighter. It can not make so good functions than especialized attack fighter.

                                        So, the best option from a funtional point, operative point, money point is the F-35. If finally decide buy more EFs (i think so) is only because political decitions. And maybe on this moment France and germany are pushing for it.
                                        Yes, no conflict here like in Germany. As the F-35A's could replace the Hornets and the F-35B's the Harriers. While, keeping the Typhoons until the NGF comes online. (Win-Win)


                                        Honestly, this idea a win for the F-35 is somehow a loss for the NGF is "absurd". (different Generations)

                                        Last edited by Scooter; 12th February 2019, 10:17.
                                        F-35 Lightning II

                                        Comment

                                        • halloweene
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2012
                                          • 4099

                                          EFs tranche 3 is 4+ generation. It is not comparable to any platform 5 generation as F-35
                                          i love those bold assessments. Everything depends on context,mission types, doctrina etc.

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