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  • Vnomad
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • May 2011
    • 2859

    #61
    Originally posted by St John.
    Vnomad - Indeed, but if you make a product that's cheaper, it's more likely to sell in higher numbers and hence be built in greater numbers.
    You can't build it cheaper if the scale to kickstart that cycle doesn't exist. In that sense, the dispute between France and Germany over exports is a bit ridiculous.

    It ought to be less a question of "who should we sell it to" and more one of "who would even buy it".

    Its competitors from the US (and China) are going to be ordered in the kind of numbers that will drive the cost down to the point where the European alternatives simply can't compete. Maybe if you got UK, Sweden & Italy on-board it might have a shot, but on its own it'd unlikely to retain even the local European market let alone succeed overseas.
    Last edited by Vnomad; 6th November 2018, 19:46.

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    • JSR
      JSR
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Aug 2011
      • 4982

      #62
      Spending say... $20 bn on R&D would eat up half of France's $40 bn defence budget but only consume 3% of the $650 bn US defence budget
      Its not French R&D budget but collecting money at EU level to fund R&D under France that's why it is called Franco-German fighter. there are plenty of other errors in your post.

      Every thing is at EU level to collect funds.
      https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/06/fran...-the-year.html
      "We want the adoption of the directive on digital taxation by the end of this year. This is a clear red line for the French government," Bruno Le Maire, France's finance minister

      Comment

      • eagle1
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Feb 2011
        • 1125

        #63
        New generation aircrafts are expensive to develop but this need to be mitigated :

        1) There are fewer types to develop. For instance rafale is progressively replacing every types in inventory (mirage IV, mirage F1, jaguar, SE, mirage 2000...)
        2) Product life cycle is longer.

        It should also be noted that there should be some porting between rafaleF4/Fx/MLU/whatever and SCAF to gain time and money. Same is intended for Tempest. It is a continuous investment with incremental upgrades and standards...With a bump when you need a new airframe but you don't start from scratch for every systems. And in parallel there are continuously several research program going on preparing for newer technology for the rafale or a future airframe (PEA/LEA etc).

        That's why I am confident that even France alone can cope with such a program if the political will is maintained. In every domain (aircraft design, radar, optics, EW, engines...) France is at top level with a few othe countries. The situation would be different for some other nations where the gap to reach the next generation is much bigger.

        Comment

        • TomcatViP
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Nov 2011
          • 6125

          #64
          Originally posted by eagle1
          In every domain (aircraft design, radar, optics, EW, engines...) France is at top level with a few other countries. The situation would be different for some other nations where the gap to reach the next generation is much bigger.
          This is a very personal interpretation of facts. I know that it is kind popular for French millennial to ever be fond of the same songs and artist as their parents... but Aerospace industry is different. The never ending mining of 1980's technologies does not represent the future today.
          Last edited by TomcatViP; 7th November 2018, 21:10.

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          • Vnomad
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • May 2011
            • 2859

            #65
            Originally posted by Vnomad
            There is an opportunity cost attached to retaining all that know-how. Spending say... $20 bn on R&D would eat up half of France's $40 bn defence budget but only consume 3% of the $650 bn US defence budget. That has an impact on maintenance and procurement budgets all the way down the line.

            Fewer tanks. fewer aircraft, fewer naval vessels, fewer personnel... and a reduced capacity for overseas deployment. All elements that go into the making of a so-called "first-rate power".

            ~ Export Numbers:

            Mirage III: 1000 units across 21 operators (70% of total)

            Mirage 2000: 300 units across 7 operators(50% of total)

            Rafale: 100 units across 3 operators (30% of total)

            SCAF: ???
            _______________________

            The SCAF might score a few export orders but the pickings are already slim and they're going to get a lot slimmer.

            Its all very well to be unaligned but lets face it, there are only a handful of countries with both the willingness and capacity to pay to acquire such an aircraft. Also, the competition will include not just the Russians but also the Chinese.
            Originally posted by eagle1
            New generation aircrafts are expensive to develop but this need to be mitigated :

            1) There are fewer types to develop. For instance rafale is progressively replacing every types in inventory (mirage IV, mirage F1, jaguar, SE, mirage 2000...)
            2) Product life cycle is longer.

            It should also be noted that there should be some porting between rafaleF4/Fx/MLU/whatever and SCAF to gain time and money. Same is intended for Tempest. It is a continuous investment with incremental upgrades and standards...With a bump when you need a new airframe but you don't start from scratch for every systems. And in parallel there are continuously several research program going on preparing for newer technology for the rafale or a future airframe (PEA/LEA etc).
            I'm afraid none of what you're describing is unique to France.

            1) The F-35 is progressively replacing the A-10, F-16, F-15C, F-18 and Harrier.
            2) Its product life cycle is longer than its predecessors as well.

            Same goes for equipment-mix. All manufacturers go for a blend of proven tech and new innovative tech - none of them start from scratch for every system. And 'continuous investment' is a part of US & Chinese planning as well.

            That being said, an evolutionary approach will only coast the Dassault train to a 5+ fighter.

            If the SCAF is meant to be a 6th gen type intended to compete with the US PCA effort they'll need to spend some serious money to make some big leaps. Just to put that in perspective the USAF plans to spend ~$12 bn upto 2022 on NGAD research before full scale development commences.

            That's why I am confident that even France alone can cope with such a program if the political will is maintained. In every domain (aircraft design, radar, optics, EW, engines...) France is at top level with a few othe countries. The situation would be different for some other nations where the gap to reach the next generation is much bigger.
            Depends on how you define 'cope with' and who exactly are you referring to.

            The principal challenge to the SCAF will come from the US and China both of which will offer better value-for-money to prospective customers - both because they invest more in R&D (though China is currently in catch-up mode) and because the size of their procurement budgets allows for much larger economies of scale.

            The other big obstacle to the SCAF is the shrinking market. Already the list of countries that are willing to spend $4-5 bn for a squadron of Rafales has become a short one. The number that can afford to pay whatever the SCAF costs will be much shorter. Probably just India and a couple of Gulf sheikhdoms. Both iffy propositions in the 2040s - India because of the US competition and the Gulf states due to economic factors as well as US/Chinese competition.
            Last edited by Vnomad; 8th November 2018, 05:27.

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            • halloweene
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2012
              • 4350

              #66
              If the SCAF is meant to be a 6th gen type intended to compete with the US PCA effort they'll need to spend some serious money to make some big leaps.
              Don't think only in terms of dollar, France is not the USA.

              Comment

              • St. John
                Rank 4 Registered User
                • Jan 2018
                • 568

                #67
                Have they decided if there's going to be a carrier variant yet?

                Comment

                • JSR
                  JSR
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Aug 2011
                  • 4982

                  #68
                  Probably just India and a couple of Gulf sheikhdoms. Both iffy propositions in the 2040s - India because of the US competition and the Gulf states due to economic factors as well as US/Chinese competition.
                  There is only one country that will have 6G fighter. it is based on water supply, population density and efficient industrialization of large industrial cluster of aerospace at one place.
                  not at this place
                  http://www.ufz.de/index.php?en=37937

                  French trying to do complex things with limited technical ability but they will end up like Embarer/Bombardier get sold of at the end even if the final product is based practically 90% imported components.

                  Comment

                  • eagle1
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Feb 2011
                    • 1125

                    #69
                    I see the usual trio that will systematicaly post negative comments whishing that anything French related will actually fail ^^ strange "raison d'tre"

                    I appreciate discussing/exchanging point of views but sometimes it is just too caricatural "80's technology" "limited abilities"...This is just trolling. I don't have enough time and energy for that. Family/children, friends & job first.

                    I'm afraid none of what you're describing is unique to France.
                    You should not be affraid I never implied that this was unique to France. Too much assumptions and suspicions...

                    I try to be realistic : it is a given that the SCAF will be produced in lower number than US or Chineese NG jets (let's wait & see for the Russian) but that was already the case for mirages and rafales and they still exist.

                    Probably it will start like a 5.5 gen jet with some porting of new but relatively proven technology and evolve in a 6 gen a few years latter with a new standard. If I am not mistaken the B21 is following the same approach also with gradual incorporation of newer techology. It is also the philosophy for the Tempest program.

                    Already the rafale F4 in development will feature some technologies ahead of the F35 like full GaN tech for radar and GaN panels. Stealth fighter datalink like the F35 has will come with the F4 standard...There are encouraging things not to mention more long term studies currently going on (PEA/LEA) for more "exotic" capabilities. There is a spiraling development of capabilities that will be eventually incorporated in the SCAF.

                    Sure the US have more funding compared to Europe or Russia...But that was already the case before and you have some very capable European or Russian jets. Yes the US will probably be the first to incorporate some technologies at very high costs (direct energy etc..)...But will be followed and sometimes surpassed a few years latter at a fraction of the costs. It is cyclicle. You are ahread at one point for a few years and then your are copied and surpassed before taking againg the lead etc etc etc...

                    I don't want to make up things but there are also good reasons to be optimistic. I don't believe that France/Europe will abandon that easily, too much at stake in terms of independence, know-how, jobs etc etc...The lobby is strong and there is a political consensus from the far left to the far right in France (exception of the green party which is very small).

                    Sure the more partner and exports the better...That will help being more ambitious and agressive in term of development risks. But even alone France will prefer developing its own jet rather than buying something from the US, even if for that France will need to be "less ambitious" in term of capabilities and play it smart with the money they have. But for now with Dassault & Airbus France/Germany one should be confident that the product will be a very good one.
                    Last edited by eagle1; 8th November 2018, 20:51.

                    Comment

                    • TomcatViP
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Nov 2011
                      • 6125

                      #70
                      I appreciate discussing/exchanging point of views but sometimes it is just too caricatural "80's technology" "limited abilities"...This is just trolling. I don't have enough time
                      I have to admit my post was not even convincing myself... Good you took some restraint sparing yourself some extra time.

                      However, the prospects of export for a 6th gen fighter produced in limited quantities and coming from countries that haven't done anything branded 5th gen are... null. If you want to sale a product, you have to meet a market.

                      The problem in this FCAS story is that many think they are doing their jobs just applying old recipes. The first thing to do for the Franco-German duo would be to ensure the low cost of their future production and that starts with having a competitive product at first,

                      Comment

                      • XB-70
                        Rank 4 Registered User
                        • May 2018
                        • 366

                        #71
                        it is a given that the SCAF will be produced in lower number than US or Chinese(sp) NG jets (let's wait & see for the Russian)
                        You can go ahead and add the Russians to that list. It's almost a given once you think about it. Today, even though 5th gen fighters are top of the line, the great majority of effort spent by air forces is to procure further 4/4.5 gen fighters or to extend their usefulness. Most countries aren't looking to go to war and their militaries have no real power projection mandate. Their only mission is to deter aggression (both directly and by enhancing diplomacy through joint exercises and such). The fourth gen jets do just fine for that kind of mission right now; there is no reason for them to bear the expense of anything further. This will slowly change to where the 5th gen is more in demand. But still, unless if the world jumps on a footing where it is preparing for the next world war then it will still make economic sense for most to settle for being one to one and a half generations behind the cutting edge.

                        The UK and EU countries are trying to skip a generation to the 6th. A 6th generation fighter isn't going to sell well until the 2050s. They are going to miss out on a lot! The US, Chinese, and Russians won't.

                        Comment

                        • TomcatViP
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Nov 2011
                          • 6125

                          #72
                          It is also dubious that without continuous technological investment and operational refinement you would skip a generation without loosing some feather*. French commentators have been expletive about India attempts to regain their aerospace know-how at once with the Teja project. Where are those critics today?

                          *and not the least one: Stealth, this new paradigm!

                          Comment

                          • Vnomad
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • May 2011
                            • 2859

                            #73
                            Originally posted by eagle1
                            You should not be affraid I never implied that this was unique to France. Too much assumptions and suspicions...

                            I try to be realistic : it is a given that the SCAF will be produced in lower number than US or Chineese NG jets (let's wait & see for the Russian) but that was already the case for mirages and rafales and they still exist.

                            Probably it will start like a 5.5 gen jet with some porting of new but relatively proven technology and evolve in a 6 gen a few years latter with a new standard. If I am not mistaken the B21 is following the same approach also with gradual incorporation of newer techology. It is also the philosophy for the Tempest program.
                            Bit of an empty point then because the discussion was about the SCAF's value-proposition and export prospects, not whether it would "exist". Your example of the Rafale is an apt one, and one would expect the SCAF to compare to the PCA much like the Rafale does to the F-35.

                            Already the rafale F4 in development will feature some technologies ahead of the F35 like full GaN tech for radar and GaN panels. Stealth fighter datalink like the F35 has will come with the F4 standard...There are encouraging things not to mention more long term studies currently going on (PEA/LEA) for more "exotic" capabilities. There is a spiraling development of capabilities that will be eventually incorporated in the SCAF.
                            Lets not count one's chickens before they hatch. The F4 will no doubt feature various upgrades to its systems but the "full GaN radar/GaN panels" type claims are just empty speculation at this point. When we have real information about the F4 configuration we can compare it to the F-35 Block 4.4.

                            As I recall, the rumours about GaN EW on the F3R were taken as gospel truth as well as - at least around here - and later explained away with a 'grapes-were-sour' type justification. In the end, the first aircraft to actually field a GaN EW system will be the F-15E.

                            Sure the US have more funding compared to Europe or Russia...But that was already the case before and you have some very capable European or Russian jets. Yes the US will probably be the first to incorporate some technologies at very high costs (direct energy etc..)...But will be followed and sometimes surpassed a few years latter at a fraction of the costs. It is cyclicle. You are ahread at one point for a few years and then your are copied and surpassed before taking againg the lead etc etc etc...
                            "Fraction of the cost" is just a myth, else new entrants like India, Turkey, South Korea, Taiwan etc could easily catch up to the likes of France & UK. Fact remains, advanced defence technology is very expensive to develop, draws greatly on existing capabilities and is jealously guarded. While there is a risk-reduction pre-cost associated with any innovative tech, its still only a small part of the funding that goes into full scale development of any modern weapon system.

                            I don't want to make up things but there are also good reasons to be optimistic. I don't believe that France/Europe will abandon that easily, too much at stake in terms of independence, know-how, jobs etc etc...The lobby is strong and there is a political consensus from the far left to the far right in France (exception of the green party which is very small).

                            Sure the more partner and exports the better...That will help being more ambitious and agressive in term of development risks. But even alone France will prefer developing its own jet rather than buying something from the US, even if for that France will need to be "less ambitious" in term of capabilities and play it smart with the money they have. But for now with Dassault & Airbus France/Germany one should be confident that the product will be a very good one.
                            Like I said before, the question isn't "can the SCAF be developed"? It can and that's not in dispute.

                            Question is, what will even a "less ambitious" development project cost - not just the baseline Euro figure but the opportunity cost. What will the French military have to give up in terms of other R&D projects as well as numbers i.e. procurement budgets, to ensure that full spectrum national design capabilities are maintained. How many of its nine fighter squadrons will end up number-plated, how many transports & tankers will be shed and how many UCAVs will actually be acquired? Same goes for the UK and the Tempest (if sanctioned).

                            It would have been much easier if it were a genuine pan-European program but that is obviously at odds with the French desire to retain end-to-end sovereign capacities. Like I said in my first post -

                            End result will be the same - both aircraft will be adopted domestically in modest numbers, and achieve some minor export wins while getting smoked by the US PCA/FA-XX everywhere else, including Europe.

                            The only way for the Europeans to avoid fragmentation and achieve credible economies of scale, is for the UK & France to collaborate and that means finding an equitable workshare compromise (and getting past the Brexit snub). Easier said than done.

                            Comment

                            • eagle1
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Feb 2011
                              • 1125

                              #74
                              Bit of an empty point then because the discussion was about the SCAF's value-proposition and export prospects, not whether it would "exist". Your example of the Rafale is an apt one, and one would expect the SCAF to compare to the PCA much like the Rafale does to the F-35.
                              We misunderstand each other beacause my point was not about exports but if it would exist. Newer generation combat aircrafts are more exepnsive to develop but you develop fewer types for a longer period of time than previously...Which make the burden more bearable. Not to say it is chaeap !

                              Lets not count one's chickens before they hatch. The F4 will no doubt feature various upgrades to its systems but the "full GaN radar/GaN panels" type claims are just empty speculation at this point. When we have real information about the F4 configuration we can compare it to the F-35 Block 4.4.

                              As I recall, the rumours about GaN EW on the F3R were taken as gospel truth as well as - at least around here - and later explained away with a 'grapes-were-sour' type justification. In the end, the first aircraft to actually field a GaN EW system will be the F-15E.
                              F3R : it is not about rumor but this interview in aviationweek :

                              France has also announced big investments for Rafale. Dassault has already inducted the first of the French Navy Rafale F1-standard aircraft to begin an upgrade to the latest service configuration, F3-04T, which includes the active, electronically scanned array (AESA) version of the RBE2 radar and the DDM-NG missile-warning system. The program goal is to retain all the aircraft in service through rolling upgrades, the company says.

                              The DDM-NG, part of the Thales/MBDA Spectra defensive avionics suite, comprises two imaging infra-red sensors located on either side of the fighters fin-tip pod, each with a hemispherical field of view and jointly providing full spherical coverage other than the area blanked by the fighters wing. Its ability to detect and track other targets, such as aircraft, is classified, according to Dassault.

                              In January, the French defense ministry awarded Dassault a contract for the next major Rafale upgrade, known as F3-R.

                              It includes more powerful processors and upgrades to the Multi-functional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminal datalink and the automatic ground collision avoidance system.

                              For tactical and strategic reconnaissance missions, F3-R will include in-cockpit replay and analysis of imagery from the Thales Areos long-range oblique photography (Lorop) reconnaissance pod. The Rafale pilot or weapon system operator will be able to review imagery without interrupting the pods collection process.

                              The upgrade will also see a series of improvements to Spectra. Developed by Thales and MBDA, Spectra is a fully automated system that provides electromagnetic detection, laser and missile warning, jamming and four chaff/flare dispensers. French industry sources say that during operations over Libya in 2011, Rafale literally disappeared from the radar screens of the Libyan air force, performing soft kills on enemy radar systems [already related in one of the lastest issue of FOX3].

                              Bruno Carrara, director of the Rafale program at Thales, says the F3-R upgrade will involve a more advanced electromagnetic detection capability based on new digital wide-band-receiver technologies, improving the suites spectrum analysis as well as its instantaneous interception capability.

                              Thales will also update Spectras solid-state jamming subsystem, which was one of the first to use electronically steered phased-array antennas. Carrara says for F3R, Spectra will include more powerful antennas, while further increasing the power supply so that more threats can be jammed simultaneously. Like Saab, Thales will use GaN technology because of its power and efficiency.

                              Since the late 1990s, Spectras designers have dropped hints that the system can perform active cancellationreceiving a radar signal and mimicking the aircrafts echo exactly one-half wavelength out of phase so the radar sees nothing.

                              Carrara again implies that such a capability is in use: There are other strategies, such as generating signals that will encompass or be higher than the echo from the aircraft, so that the radar threat will receive a signal that will mask the echo from the aircraft, Carrara says. Instead of creating a false echo and drawing the radar to the wrong place, the idea is to produce a signal that will mask the echo of the aircraft, so the radar will be unable to detect the aircraft Spectra is protecting.[...]
                              and for rafale and GaN it is form airforce monthly special edition :

                              Standard F4 will be even more ambitious than F3R, explained the programme director. While F3R is mainly restricted to software upgrades, new hardware will be required for the far-reaching F4, even though the airframe will remain unchanged. In practice, F4 will be split into F4.1, for older, in-service aircraft, and F4.2, for new-build airframes. F4.1 will be limited to a number of improvements only in order to avoid complex hardware changes, but F4.1 will accept the new Rafale weapons now being developed. F4.2 will include the whole package of upgrades for the radar, the electronic warfare suite, the Front Sector Optronics and the cockpit to accommodate a helmet-mounted display (HMD). All Tranche 4 aircraft the 28 airframes to be delivered in 2021-23, and all Tranche 5 Rafales will be delivered as F4.2 aircraft. Standard F4 development will take about six years, with service entry due in 2025, but some systems will find their way into the inventory earlier, as soon as they are ready, using a building-block approach thanks to software upgrades.

                              (...)

                              Radar and Spectra upgrades The current Thales RBE2 AESA radar will be further improved. It will benefit from the introduction of two new air-tosurface modes: a ground moving target indicator (GMTI), to detect and track moving targets over land, and a UHR (ultra high resolution) mode, to replace the current HR functionality for synthetic aperture radar (SAR) imagery, offering superior radar image quality at very long distances. The ability to interleave radar modes will be enhanced, thus helping provide aircrews with even better situational awareness. The Spectra electronic warfare/selfprotection suite produced by Thales and MBDA is fully integrated. It is composed of a wide range of systems: a Dtecteur dAlerte Radar (DAR, or radar warning receiver), a Dtecteur dAlerte Laser (DAL, or laser warner), a Dtecteur de Dpart Missile (DDM or DDM NG, or missile launch detector), a high-power radar jammer, and decoy dispensers that can launch a range of flares and chaff. Over the coming months, Spectra will be improved, with bandwidth extensions for the detectors and jammers to cover lower and higher frequency bands, thus providing an instantaneous reaction against any type of pop-up threat. Our objective here is to obtain extremely accurate RF emitter geolocation and 3D tracking, including of airborne radars, said the programme director. The capabilities of a single Rafale to locate and track a threat without resorting to traditional, but timeconsuming, methods of triangulation or of bearing measurements along the aircrafts flight path will be significantly improved. It is a very important step forward, and the recent progresses made by Spectra will boost the capabilities of the Rafale in that field.

                              GaN technology Thales and the DGA are actively preparing the future radar developments that will be introduced on Standard F4.2, incorporating cutting-edge Gallium Nitride (GaN) technology for the radar and jammer antennas. Thanks to additional radar apertures, detection capabilities will be unmatched and electronic attack capabilities will become a reality. The programme director explained: Even though we are entirely satisfied with the current RBE2 AESA radar, we are already working on the next generation scheduled to appear on new-build aircraft in 2025. For the same volume, GaN technology will offer an expanded bandwidth, more radiated power and an even easier ability to switch from one mode to another, or from one functionality to another. With the same antenna, we will be capable of generating combined, interleaved radar, jamming and electronic warfare modes as part of an electronic attack mission. GaN emitters will not be restricted to the radar and they will also equip the Spectra suite. For example, for the antennas in the wing apexes, ahead of the canard foreplanes, we could obtain a very quick emission/reception cycle, either saving some volume or augmenting radiated power. On Tranche 5 Rafales, we will have at our disposal twice the amount of transmitted power for the radar and jamming antennas. Thales has already produced and tested in laboratories a series of GaN module prototypes for the new radar and initial testing results look extremely promising.

                              Following the entry into service of the AESA in 2013, the deliveries of the Meteor in 2018 will push the Rafale into a class of its own we will be the only ones in the world operating a fighter equipped with an AESA and a ramjet-propelled missile but we have to keep investing to maintain our leadership. This is the reason why this GaN technological path is so important, especially for the development of additional emitting panels and apertures that will offer extended radar angular coverage. It is not just an improvement; it is a real technological breakthrough in the field of detection. Jamming modes will not be left untouched and will push the Rafales electronic warfare capabilities to unprecedented levels thanks to the introduction of what we call smart jamming, with a wider band coverage and GaN emitters from 2025. These capabilities will be further expanded thanks to the adoption of MFAs [Multi-Function Arrays]. The Rafales Front Sector Optronics (FSO) will be fitted with a new-generation infrared search and track (IRST) sensor optimised for the tracking of air targets, either alone, or in conjunction with the RBE2 radar.
                              The DGA oversees a number of research programmes aimed at promoting advanced technologies for the Rafale in the field of sensors, especially for the RBE2 radar, as the Rafale Programme Director explained. We will soon launch the AESA NG programme, which will supplement the MFA [Multi-Function Array], CARAA [Capacits Accrues pour le Radar RBE2 Antenne Active, enhanced capabilities for the active RBE2 radar] and MELBAA [Modes et Exploitation Large Bande pour lAntenne Active, wide-band operating modes for the active array] projects in order to help mature technologies to be produced from 2025 for Standard F4.2. The CARAA demonstrator first flew in late 2015. It is composed of numerous receptors, enabling the creation of radar lobes optimised by advanced calculation techniques to cancel jamming in many directions simultaneously. The first flight of the MELBAA demonstrator is expected in late 2017. The trials will focus on dedicated types of targets: slowmovers, helicopters, fighters hiding in the Doppler beam, stealth targets etc. Further developments will include interleaved modes that will be further refined thanks to the appearance of a new generation of calculators powerful enough to provide the processing power required to exploit these modes fully.
                              Spectra with GaN is being flown and tested since late 2014 (source Air & Cosmos).

                              I did not post everything but there are plenty of other research program to support new technologies that will apply to the rafale F4 and eventually to the SCAF (stealth, engines etc)
                              Last edited by eagle1; 9th November 2018, 16:01.

                              Comment

                              • JSR
                                JSR
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Aug 2011
                                • 4982

                                #75
                                I try to be realistic : it is a given that the SCAF will be produced in lower number than US or Chineese NG jets (let's wait & see for the Russian) but that was already the case for mirages and rafales and they still exist
                                Those Mirages and Rafales (far less complex in technology) developed in different era.
                                now if US finds new French jet slightest threat to its dominance in EU or threat to Israel. it will sanction any French firms doing any business anywhere. French government is not rich enough to keep them afloat.

                                Superjet is venture of French firms..
                                https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2018-09-10/sukhoi-uac-planning-superjet-no-western-content
                                Over the course of the summer, a number of SCACs European partners informed the manufacturer that they will not risk losing U.S. market as a result of the White Houses possible retaliation for their non-compliance with President Donald Trumps new policy toward Tehran.

                                Having reconsidered the situation, Moscow has decided to proceed with the indigenization of the Superjet to a greater extent than initially planned. After 2021, when SCAC introduces a version of the airplane without U.S. parts known as the SSJ100R, the company plans to pursue a version devoid of all Western components, according to sources within UAC

                                [As I said Canada/Brazil will exit from Aviation industry. Next is EU. US will have a lot of of surplus labor due to changes in Automobile industry. Those will have to be obsorbed in Aviation Industry.

                                Antenna upgrades to radar does not make it 6G fighter. It will stay 4G airframe with 4.5G electronics. first start with hypersonic weopon development.
                                Last edited by JSR; 9th November 2018, 22:24.

                                Comment

                                • XB-70
                                  Rank 4 Registered User
                                  • May 2018
                                  • 366

                                  #76
                                  JSR - That's a pretty bold and pessimistic prediction since Rolls-Royce, Airbus, and such are some of the giants in aerospace today. I have serious doubts about the viability of the UK and Fr-Ger programs too, but they are centered around the business plan of the program. It is absolute insanity to begin work on a platform which ignores the developing market for 5th gens and will not have a viable export market for 35 years. (The only market will be those involved in the program) And there will be significant competition when it arrives. They are trying to save on costs by skipping the 5th gen but they are just going to pile up more costs down the road due to lack of economies of scale.

                                  So, the sections of their aerospace firms which caters to the defense market will likely take a hit (it may not be fatal), but their civil sector should make it through.

                                  Comment

                                  • Siddar
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Feb 2013
                                    • 263

                                    #77
                                    Civilian aerospace is not going to go away in Europe. Military aerospace may diminish over time but that will be a slow process. Currently were in situation where civilian tech leads military tech so potential for a rebound military tech is present. That doesn't mean I'm not pessimistic European military aerospace in the long run. But the idea that JSR is pushing is laughable the US auto industry has been in decline for decades. It hasn't done city's like Detroit any good that there were mass of skill workers that could be transitioned into aerospace available.

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                                    • RALL
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Aug 2017
                                      • 216

                                      #78
                                      Click image for larger version  Name:	Dr-qNReXcAETMw8.jpg Views:	1 Size:	292.8 KB ID:	3840989


                                      https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/...55216842543104
                                      Last edited by RALL; 15th November 2018, 16:36.

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                                      • Vnomad
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • May 2011
                                        • 2859

                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by eagle1
                                        F3R : it is not about rumor but this interview in aviationweek :

                                        Spectra with GaN is being flown and tested since late 2014 (source Air & Cosmos).

                                        I did not post everything but there are plenty of other research program to support new technologies that will apply to the rafale F4 and eventually to the SCAF (stealth, engines etc)
                                        The takeaway from the F3R's altogether GaAs sensors ought to be that just because a technology is in development doesn't mean its viable, economical or production ready.

                                        Given that LM, Raytheon & NG are still the only manufacturers with GaN radars operational in the field, and will be the first to roll out a GaN EW system in 2022, its bit hard to take the idea of the Rafale F4 featuring "some technologies ahead of the F35 like full GaN tech".

                                        Comment

                                        • halloweene
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2012
                                          • 4350

                                          #80
                                          Thales do build GaN radars, aswell as SAAB. Of course, if you do not know ...And no, Gripen EW system is GaN based... Ignorance...


                                          Knowledge... http://www.microwave-rf.com/document...%20MANCUSO.pdf

                                          https://saabgroup.com/media/stories/...de-technology/

                                          ​​​​​​​
                                          Last edited by halloweene; 15th November 2018, 19:52.

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