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  • FBW
    FBW
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Dec 2011
    • 3295

    Originally posted by Jō Asakura View Post
    Dassault NGF looks absolutely amazing! Major kudos! Look forward to seeing how Northrop's effort compares aesthetically, will they go tail-less?

    Will be interesting to see the Generative Design solutions implemented on both:

    https://www.autodesk.com/customer-stories/airbus
    I think they all look very interesting...
    because they are mockups. Although, its ironic that the pointy nose gets all the love on the forum analysis. The critical design feature that would make a difference (if carried over to the demonstrator) would be the integrated nozzle/fuselage of the Tempest, that is the next technological leap for materials, IR reduction , lower weight. Fluidic thrust vectoring, BAE already has experience with this, not to mention the way forward for eliminating vertical tails in a supersonic aircraft.

    Drag doesnt just happen at the front of the aircraft, an integrated nozzle will be a major breakthrough, the F-22s 2-d non-axis symmetric nozzle was the baby step to major drag reduction.
    Last edited by FBW; 20th June 2019, 03:13.

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    • J-20
      Rank 4 Registered User
      • Jan 2018
      • 255

      Die evolution of FCAS. it changes every year har har

      2014 model

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      2015 model

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      2017 model

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      2018 model


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      2019 model

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      Comment

      • Jō Asakura
        多聞天
        • Jan 2011
        • 1302

        Meh, tempest...Just wait...
        sigpic

        Comment

        • halloweene
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2012
          • 4350

          Design is not definitely fixed but there should be that very flat tail. Probably also variable air intakes so as to go faster than mach 2. Infos are hard to get.
          What i can tell you is that SDR (U/VHF at the moment, awaiting for a NATO standardization of waveforms) and communication server are ready.. Btw, it is 18x14m (the mockup)
          Thales want to get as many as mossibl allied waveorms, be it tempest or US.
          All in all, 3 demonstrators will be built : on for airframe with M88 derived engines, one for a new engine (2100K) and one for connectivity.
          In the end there should be 3 different waveforms possible, one national, one european (ESSOR) and one NATO (could be essor also)
          Last edited by halloweene; 20th June 2019, 21:07.

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          • toan
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jul 2008
            • 997

            According the information we know now, the NGF:
            1. About 1/4 to 1/2 larger/heavier than Rafale.
            2. MTOW that will be similar to Mirage IV in 1960s.
            3. Requirement of significant better payload and combat range than Rafale and Eurofighter.
            4. Two engines of 30,000 pounds class each.

            My personal guess for NGF according to the information mentioned above:
            1. Empty weight: 12.5 to 15.0 ton (Rafale: 10.0 ton; EF-2000: 11.0 ton; F-22A: 19.6 ton).
            2. Internal fuel capacity: 6.5 to 8.0 ton (Rafale: 4.7 ton; EF-2000: 5.0 ton; F-22A: 8.0 ton).
            3. Maximal payload: 10.0 to 12.0 ton (Rafale: 9.5 ton; EF-2000: 7.5 ton).
            4. MTOW: 30.0 to 35.0 ton (Mirage IV: 33,450 kg; Rafale: 24,500 kg; EF-2000: 23,500 kg).
            5. Weight for air-combat: 18.0 to 21.0 ton (50% internal fuel + 2.0 ton payload).
            6. Thrust of engine: 30,000 Ib*2 (Rafale: 17,000 Ib*2; EF-2000: 20,250 Ib*2; F-22A: 35,000 to 39,000 Ib*2 ).
            7. T/W ratio for air-combat: 1.3 to 1.5+ (Under the same conditions, Rafale: 1.07; EF-2000: 1.19; F-22A: 1.24 to 1.38).

            Hmmm....not a bad start for a future European air superiority fighter, right?
            Last edited by toan; 24th June 2019, 16:11.

            Comment

            • Sens
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2000
              • 12298

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockhe...in_F-22_Raptor
              There is a reason the similar size Raptor comes along with an empty weight of >19 tons.

              Comment

              • H_K
                H_K
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Dec 2007
                • 630

                Originally posted by toan View Post
                According the information we know now, the NGF:

                2. MTOW that will be similar to Mirage IV in 1960s.
                4. Two engines of 30,000 pounds class each.
                Toan, whats your source for the NGFs weight and engine thrust? Thx

                Comment

                • toan
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jul 2008
                  • 997

                  https://theaviationist.com/2019/06/1...aris-air-show/

                  https://aviationweek.com/paris-airsh...n-fcas-program

                  Comment

                  • TooCool_12f
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Dec 2009
                    • 3321

                    Originally posted by Sens View Post
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockhe...in_F-22_Raptor
                    There is a reason the similar size Raptor comes along with an empty weight of >19 tons.
                    yes, but we are talking about a fighter to enter service half a century after the Raptor.. might be they have some ideas about ways to achieve what they want in a certain weight class, no?

                    Comment

                    • J-20
                      Rank 4 Registered User
                      • Jan 2018
                      • 255

                      some new CG from Dassaulty.

                      its as if F-101 and Lockmart had a baby

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                      • Aurel
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Oct 2003
                        • 1178

                        More like a twin engined version of this:

                        Comment

                        • halloweene
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2012
                          • 4350

                          Rememberthat i)this is only a model (smae for tempest who' model belly was 50 cms high). B. This is just one small part of a system. That is the real diference with F-35. SCAF is built first as lets say an "open OS" you can plug in. F-35 on the opposite, the rest of the system is completely built around and is as closed as Ios

                          Comment

                          • J-20
                            Rank 4 Registered User
                            • Jan 2018
                            • 255

                            Originally posted by halloweene View Post
                            Rememberthat i)this is only a model (smae for tempest who' model belly was 50 cms high). B. This is just one small part of a system. That is the real diference with F-35. SCAF is built first as lets say an "open OS" you can plug in. F-35 on the opposite, the rest of the system is completely built around and is as closed as Ios
                            Given they change the design completely every year or two.. I expect maybe 15 more new models before it flies.

                            will probably end up looking similar to whatever the British will make.

                            By then the market will probably been saturated with F35, j31 j20 and maybe the kfx

                            Comment

                            • halloweene
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2012
                              • 4350

                              There are several reeasons to expect that there will finally be a v shaped tail, major one being landing speed on carrier.

                              Comment

                              • TomcatViP
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Nov 2011
                                • 6107



                                Definitively the name has to be "The cougar"...



                                SOurce:
                                The SecretProject Forum

                                Comment

                                • RALL
                                  Rank 4 Registered User
                                  • Aug 2017
                                  • 203

                                  Originally posted by J-20 View Post
                                  some new CG from Dassaulty.

                                  its as if F-101 and Lockmart had a baby

                                  Click image for larger version

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                                  Click image for larger version

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                                  I dont think wings will be on final model as this picture.

                                  Comment

                                  • J-20
                                    Rank 4 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2018
                                    • 255

                                    Originally posted by J-20 View Post
                                    some new CG from Dassaulty.

                                    its as if F-101 and Lockmart had a baby

                                    Click image for larger version

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                                    here is an accurate artist conception of FCAS in Uber alles Deutscheland colors

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                                    and one more from its Italian partner. Linguine

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                                    Comment

                                    • Aurel
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Oct 2003
                                      • 1178

                                      Yeah, that other Italy.

                                      Comment

                                      • djcross
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2000
                                        • 5456

                                        Nice planform for a start. If the size was larger, wing started at the nose, bury the inlets, lose the tails and add thrust vectoring, it would better match future requirements for combat load/radius and speed/altitude.

                                        Comment

                                        • TomcatViP
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Nov 2011
                                          • 6107

                                          It's a beautiful airframe when seen through Italian craftsmanship. However the mockup in Paris has a larger wing chord that kills a bit the effect (over designed wing surface = drag). But on overall this was a nice "surprise". Regarding Djcross remark , I am not sure that deleting verticals will be of any help regarding the level of stealth achievable by nations with no in-service experience of such. You have to start by something (as say the Russians). And TVC is among the targets

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