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    Originally posted by halloweene View Post
    Wow, you had a look into your crystal ball? Not everyone is LM and delays their programs for 15 years... About relevance of Typhoon, it is spanish problem, and i'm fairly sure they are expecting your expert's opinion.
    Sorry, you don't need a crystal ball to predict 20 years to design, develop, test, and field a new fighter. It's actually the norm.

    In addition the NGF doesn't even exist in physical form yet. As a matter of fact from all reports no design is even in place at this stage. Just general concepts as they're in the process of recruiting partners for the program.

    This means it will be many many years before the first flight. Let alone testing, series production and finally entering service...


    As for the Typhoon being a Spanish Problem. Sure but it's also a NATO problem. As Spain is obligated to defend all its members beside itself. Problem with buying more Typhoons. Is while it may help the Spanish Economy. It does very little for the defense of the Alliance. As the type is nearly obsolete and we already have more than enough of them in service.(i.e 4/4.5 Generation).

    Actually, I think many are making this into an issue that it is not. As today Spain needs to replace it's Hornets and Harriers. The only real viable option is the F-35A/B. Yet, by time that is complete and the NGF comes on line. The Typhoons will retire and will be replaced by the latter.

    This all makes perfect sense when you think about it. As in the next twenty years the Spanish Air Force would be equipped with Typhoons and F-35's. Then the following twenty years by F-35's and NGF's. Which, is the same the UK and Italy are doing....in their case Typhoons and F-35's followed by F-35's and Tempests. Same for US and on and on...

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      [QUOTE=RALL;n3859253]
      Originally posted by Scooter View Post

      EF is a fabulous airplane and soon all fleet in Spain will be update with Aesa Captor radar + Meteor and other improvements.

      But it lacks on stealth, so combination EF+F-35 is perfect on my opinion. Both airplanes are complementary.

      Too it is better have 2 diferent types of airplanes because if only have 1 type, and it has some big problem, then all fleet will be on the ground for some time before issue is not resolved. With 2 diferent types, it is very difficult will happen as this.
      Yes, upgraded Typhoons with AESA Radars (Captors) combined with New F-35A's to replace the Hornets and F-35B's to replace the Harriers. Then in about twenty years when the Typhoons start to retire. They would be replaced with the NGF's just coming online...


      Also, speaking of the F-35's. Maybe the US could offer a mix of New and Used F-35's to aid Spain with the cost. For most of the F-35's needed are for the Spanish Air Force. These could be new F-35A's as the price keeps dropping nicely. Yet, instead of new F-35B's. Which, are much more expensive. Maybe the Spanish Navy could acquire a small number of rebuilt F-35B's from the USMC. Especially, considering the Navy only needs a very small number!

      Just a thought...

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      • RALL
        Rank 4 Registered User
        • Aug 2017
        • 199

        Originally posted by Scooter View Post

        Yes, upgraded Typhoons with AESA Radars (Captors) combined with New F-35A's to replace the Hornets and F-35B's to replace the Harriers. Then in about twenty years when the Typhoons start to retire. They would be replaced with the NGF's just coming online...


        Also, speaking of the F-35's. Maybe the US could offer a mix of New and Used F-35's to aid Spain with the cost. For most of the F-35's needed are for the Spanish Air Force. These could be new F-35A's as the price keeps dropping nicely. Yet, instead of new F-35B's. Which, are much more expensive. Maybe the Spanish Navy could acquire a small number of rebuilt F-35B's from the USMC. Especially, considering the Navy only needs a very small number!

        Just a thought...
        Well, the problem was the expensive european programs. For example, Nh90 helicopter is around 60 millione euros per unit. And it was not militar decition, because militar wanted Blackhawk. Politicians choose the most expensive solution, How many Sh-60 can buy for 1.400 million euros?

        And it is not a joke, it is what Spain will pay for 23 units, more than 1400 million euros. And not only this. A400 program same, very expensive...

        Spain is the 4th economy in euro zone. The problem is not the money, the problem is to take bad decitions on the programs which will affect on future. And i told, Spain will get around 30-40 new EF tranche 3 nextly and it will be around 20% expensive than F-35.

        it does not matter if you build in Spain EF, because material cost and human cost is not free. You need pay it, the only good think is to create quality employnement around this. For this too to enjoy on next generation fighter...

        But, will be a mistake only get EF until 2040. It is a big mistake.

        F-35B will come to Armada, but i would like 30-35 units F-35 A for EdA, it would be perfect. And of course Spain can buy it, but will be a political decition, and this is the problem.

        Look germany, how ridiculous. They decided do not buy F-35, and now is thinking about get more years the very old Tornados wich will have a very very expensive cost because is the only airplane which can bring tactical nuclear weapon, and EF can not. This is a problem when you have ridiculous politicians taken militar decitions. Some german general was fired for telling germany need buy F-35.
        Last edited by RALL; 12th April 2019, 17:30.

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        • halloweene
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2012
          • 4337

          Well, the problem was the expensive european programs. For example, Nh90 helicopter is around 100 millione euros per unit. And it was not militar decition, because militar wanted Blackhawk. Politicians choose the most expensive solution, How many Sh-60 can buy for 2.000 million euros?
          Wow rarely such an amount of BS.

          Nothing decide yet for Armada. Juan Carlos may aswell end as a chopper carrier.

          Look germany, how ridiculous. They decided do not buy F-35,
          Because F-35 isnt reliable yet?

          PLEASE STOP KIDDISH smileys... Some of posters do become tiring with those, aswell as unsubstantiated bald assessments... Remember Maj Gruene talking about F-22 salad? Video from RAfale Hud? etc etc. Things are way more complicated...

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          • RALL
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • Aug 2017
            • 199

            Originally posted by halloweene View Post

            Wow rarely such an amount of BS.

            Nothing decide yet for Armada. Juan Carlos may aswell end as a chopper carrier.



            Because F-35 isnt reliable yet?

            PLEASE STOP KIDDISH smileys... Some of posters do become tiring with those, aswell as unsubstantiated bald assessments... Remember Maj Gruene talking about F-22 salad? Video from RAfale Hud? etc etc. Things are way more complicated...
            Sorry, it was a mistake, it will be 1400 million for 23 NH-90, so it is 60 million per helo.
            https://www.defensa.com/espana/forma...on-nuevos-nh90

            It continue being a crazy price for a Helo which militars are disgunting around all countries who buy this helo...


            About your last sentence, you need be relaxed. it is my opinion, and yes, germany decition was politic (german militar wanted F-35), and for me it does not matter because i am not german. I renember when germany decided do not put Pirate Irst on eurofighters....other fantastic idea

            When politics take decitions which must be decided by militars, is a very bad way.
            Last edited by RALL; 12th April 2019, 17:40.

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            • halloweene
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2012
              • 4337

              Originally posted by RALL View Post

              Sorry, it was a mistake, it will be 1400 million for 23 NH-90, so it is 60 million per helo.
              NVm about cost, just tired about smileys. And NH90 has its own qualities, such as FBW, extensive use of composites etc.
              Truth is the NH90 consortium was recently butthurted because they did not take enough care of MRO. Doese not discard its qualities.

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              • bandua
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Sep 2012
                • 76

                Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                So, the Spanish Navy is going to get out of operating Fixed Wing Aircraft from the Juan Carlos I /BPE??? News to me.....
                For sure in the Navy they want to keep it but, going for around 10 F35B regarding the use spain is doing of its current wing, the shrinking budgets, logistics considerations plus the fact that the air force seems to be clearly on the more EFT + FCAS route... I honestly think that for the Navy F35B it is imposible on their own, so they would try to extend AV8Bs for as much as possible while considering alternatives, but as of now I think that the possibility of not getting F35B after the Harriers is well above 50%, not sure what other alternatives can be considered as of now they keep saying F35 is the only options but it wouldn't be the first time that a capability is simply axed due to budgetary issues.

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                • halloweene
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jan 2012
                  • 4337

                  Well... A plausible way is to try to get some of the upgraded Harriers US Navy is going to have...

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                  • bandua
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Sep 2012
                    • 76

                    Originally posted by RALL View Post

                    If you read what Admiral Urcelay told, is that F-35B is out of discussion. It can have more debate about F-35A but not about F-35B coming to Spain on next future. And it is logical, we have islands and it is necesary anfibious force with naval fighters.
                    I don't understand it that way, I think that it is pretty clear that he says F35B is the "only option if" we want to maintain the projection capabilities, and of course he is making a strong case for the F35s but first is not true that these projection capabilities depend that much on the F35B since as of now the real issue for not using them are foreign policies, budgets and logistics. None of these are likely to change in the foreseeable future. Now if we consider future acquisitions for the Spanish armed forces, the F35Bs suppose probably the most fancy one, but nor is mandatory to substitute them to maintain regular current operations nor do we have strong industrial interest linked to that, so its basically give away some 2 billion Euro, to substitute AV8Bs that in their whole operational life were never deployed somewhere were the air force cannot reach. From my point of view F35A for the air force makes much more sense, even when not mandatory either.
                    And other thing...EF is expensive than F-35A. So, When you tell, that Spain can not buy F-35A because is expensive it does not have any sense to buy more expensive EF tranche 3. This is not logical and this is a political decition anyway.

                    The reason forget more EF, also political is because need get fast deliveries for to replace older F-18, and it is not possible buying now F-35A.[/QUOTE]
                    Well, I am not talking that much on what I believe is better but on what it is actually happening, as I say EFT+ FCAS is happening F35 is not. In any case, once you have logistics, and produce yourself the eurofighters I don't think the F35 can be any cheaper, I don't even think that the unitary price itself is cheaper for the F35A but that's a different issue, it could be well the other way around

                    About what is talking Urcelay is about to buy F-35A around the middle of next century when the last F-18 will need replacement, not now. You are talking about diferente things.
                    The thing is that Urcelay is navy, so he hasn't much to say on F-18 substitutes, those responsible for the F-18 substitution have already required 40 more eurofighters and have clearly stated that even when they would like to get F35A they understand that Eurofighter is the best option for Spain now, of course it includes budgetary, political and industrial considerations.
                    Will Spain get F35s? maybe, of course, it is an interesting platform with some unique capabilities but as we all know there are many things to be considered but in any case, I don't see F35s coming in the 2020s maybe around 2030s depending on budgets, FCAS development and other political and strategic considerations.
                    To say that Spain will get that quantity of F35A and that other of F35B is not accurate as even when is true that there's interest both in the navy and the air force, it's also true that as of now there are no budgets allocated for F35s and that the air force even requested eurofighters whereas the fixed-wing capability of the navy is both expensive, underused and very questionable from a doctrinal point of view. I would gladly see those F35Bs but I do think that there are plenty of needs ahead of them and I think that those taking the decisions do think the same.

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                    • bandua
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Sep 2012
                      • 76

                      Originally posted by halloweene View Post
                      Well... A plausible way is to try to get some of the upgraded Harriers US Navy is going to have...
                      That's something very likely as of now, but it will depend on whether those might still be able to fly once the Marines retire them.

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                      • bandua
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Sep 2012
                        • 76

                        Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                        Also, speaking of the F-35's. Maybe the US could offer a mix of New and Used F-35's to aid Spain with the cost. For most of the F-35's needed are for the Spanish Air Force. These could be new F-35A's as the price keeps dropping nicely. Yet, instead of new F-35B's. Which, are much more expensive. Maybe the Spanish Navy could acquire a small number of rebuilt F-35B's from the USMC. Especially, considering the Navy only needs a very small number!

                        Just a thought...
                        A very interesting thought regarding F35B that it is being already considered in spanish defence forums, I do think that the option for the F35Bs wil require strong USMC collaboration, which maybe is not that complicated considering that Rota is an important base for the USN as wll. But this kind of agreement cannot take for granted anyway.
                        Regarding the F35A, I don't think is mandatory for Spain, close threats for Sapin aren't that real or capable and NATO needs well, first I don't think that NATO is that menaced nor is menaced by huge highly sofisticated aircrafts fleets, neither can we certain as of yet of to what extent will F35 be a game changer. Now if F35A acquisition and maintainment prices get to nice figures and F35s come to be a good solution to actual threats I think that around 36 F35A could be a really sensible choice for Spain around 2030 when the platform is both mature and cheaper. In any case, I think that the best thing to do as of now is enhance Typhoon capabilities and numbers and of course keep an eye on F35s first to collaborate with NATO F35 fleets but also to evaluate what it could suppose for the SpAF.


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                        • RALL
                          Rank 4 Registered User
                          • Aug 2017
                          • 199

                          Originally posted by bandua View Post



                          The thing is that Urcelay is navy, so he hasn't much to say on F-18 substitutes, those responsible for the F-18 substitution have already required 40 more eurofighters and have clearly stated that even when they would like to get F35A they understand that Eurofighter is the best option for Spain now, of course it includes budgetary, political and industrial considerations.
                          Will Spain get F35s? maybe, of course, it is an interesting platform with some unique capabilities but as we all know there are many things to be considered but in any case, I don't see F35s coming in the 2020s maybe around 2030s depending on budgets, FCAS development and other political and strategic considerations.
                          To say that Spain will get that quantity of F35A and that other of F35B is not accurate as even when is true that there's interest both in the navy and the air force, it's also true that as of now there are no budgets allocated for F35s and that the air force even requested eurofighters whereas the fixed-wing capability of the navy is both expensive, underused and very questionable from a doctrinal point of view. I would gladly see those F35Bs but I do think that there are plenty of needs ahead of them and I think that those taking the decisions do think the same.

                          Urcelay told, Navy+EdA did a common study for to buy F-35 together, and they present it to ministery of defence. We dont know if will be a study the all F-35B, maybe 12-14 for Navy and around 30 for EdA, or 12-14 f-35B for Navy and 30 F-35 A for EdA. But this study was presented few time ago. And there are contacts, USA make confirmation about it few days ago.

                          If you read me well, i did not tell Spain will buy F-35 A surely, i told that maybe will buy F-35A or not. But sure, F-35B will be bought for Navy.

                          I know some person which have contacts inside, and he told that idea was to buy now 30-40 EF tranche 3 ( for replace the most older F-18s). And on 2025-2030 to buy F-35b for navy and around 30 F-35A for replace the last F-18s on the EdA. But of course, this idea can change on future.
                          Last edited by RALL; 13th April 2019, 10:10.

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                          • Deino
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2000
                            • 4186

                            Come on guys ... can you please stay on topic?

                            This constant off topic posts concerning a possible Spanish purchase of either F-35 or whatever is off
                            ...

                            He was my North, my South, my East and West,
                            My working week and my Sunday rest,
                            My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
                            I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

                            The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
                            Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
                            Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
                            For nothing now can ever come to any good.
                            -------------------------------------------------
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                              Originally posted by RALL View Post

                              Well, the problem was the expensive european programs. For example, Nh90 helicopter is around 60 millione euros per unit. And it was not militar decition, because militar wanted Blackhawk. Politicians choose the most expensive solution, How many Sh-60 can buy for 1.400 million euros?

                              And it is not a joke, it is what Spain will pay for 23 units, more than 1400 million euros. And not only this. A400 program same, very expensive...

                              Spain is the 4th economy in euro zone. The problem is not the money, the problem is to take bad decitions on the programs which will affect on future. And i told, Spain will get around 30-40 new EF tranche 3 nextly and it will be around 20% expensive than F-35.

                              it does not matter if you build in Spain EF, because material cost and human cost is not free. You need pay it, the only good think is to create quality employnement around this. For this too to enjoy on next generation fighter...

                              But, will be a mistake only get EF until 2040. It is a big mistake.

                              F-35B will come to Armada, but i would like 30-35 units F-35 A for EdA, it would be perfect. And of course Spain can buy it, but will be a political decition, and this is the problem.

                              Look germany, how ridiculous. They decided do not buy F-35, and now is thinking about get more years the very old Tornados wich will have a very very expensive cost because is the only airplane which can bring tactical nuclear weapon, and EF can not. This is a problem when you have ridiculous politicians taken militar decitions. Some german general was fired for telling germany need buy F-35.
                              Well, if the Spanish Navy does acquire the F-35B. It will give them direct access to the Lightning. Which, could very well sway the decision makers further down the road. So, I wouldn't rule out the F-35A at somepoint....

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                                Originally posted by Deino View Post
                                Come on guys ... can you please stay on topic?

                                This constant off topic posts concerning a possible Spanish purchase of either F-35 or whatever is off
                                It clearly relates to the subject matter.....

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                                  Originally posted by halloweene View Post
                                  Well... A plausible way is to try to get some of the upgraded Harriers US Navy is going to have...

                                  Honestly, don't see the Spanish Navy acquiring second hand Harriers. If, it was going to buy second hand aircraft. Then just get second hand F-35B's from the USMC. Which, is a likely option in my opinion...

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                                  • bandua
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Sep 2012
                                    • 76

                                    Originally posted by RALL View Post


                                    Urcelay told, Navy+EdA did a common study for to buy F-35 together, and they present it to ministery of defence. We dont know if will be a study the all F-35B, maybe 12-14 for Navy and around 30 for EdA, or 12-14 f-35B for Navy and 30 F-35 A for EdA. But this study was presented few time ago. And there are contacts, USA make confirmation about it few days ago.

                                    If you read me well, i did not tell Spain will buy F-35 A surely, i told that maybe will buy F-35A or not. But sure, F-35B will be bought for Navy.

                                    I know some person which have contacts inside, and he told that idea was to buy now 30-40 EF tranche 3 ( for replace the most older F-18s). And on 2025-2030 to buy F-35b for navy and around 30 F-35A for replace the last F-18s on the EdA. But of course, this idea can change on future.
                                    My understanding is that the joint F35B procurement idea is a 2017 idea, the most recent update is that the EdA (SpAF) has required 40 eurofighter to replace 80 F18s and this news came after Spain joining FCAS. There's been a lot of rumors, but as I say, the most recent updates are from the JEMA (chief of staff of the air force) itself going public (Feb 6th, 2019) about having requested 40 Eurofighters for substituting F18s. It is also very likely that this might imply the substitution of all F18s since despite the EdA keeps asking for 130-140 fighters many informed people agree that a reduction in number is likely. Nobody closes the doors to F35, but whereas more Eurofighters and FCAS are being discussed, F35 is not.
                                    And the Navy hasn't gone further than pointing that the F35B is the only foreseeable substitute for the Harriers IF capabilities are to be maintained BUT when asking whether they will come, most common answers are in the line of "there are other priorities as of now", "we have to study the possibilities" and the higher you go on the ranks the less the commitment you find towards F35B.
                                    Regarding Germany, I don't think that anybody was considering Tornado replacements until very recently not long ago they were talking about retaining them until 2030 or even beyond (Whereas UK for example has since long stated that Tornados would be out by 2020) for this reason my interpretation is always been that Tornado substitution interest is more likely related with keeping open the German Eurofighter FAL than with the actual need for urgent substitution of their Tornado fleet, in any case, more Eurofighters has been always the most likely outcome for a substitute. Budgets + Industry + Politics are key elements in any defense purchase. When you are producing/can produce an aircraft yourself you almost never pick a foreign one for the same role.

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                                    • bandua
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Sep 2012
                                      • 76

                                      Originally posted by Scooter View Post


                                      Honestly, don't see the Spanish Navy acquiring second-hand Harriers. If, it was going to buy second-hand aircraft. Then just get second hand F-35B's from the USMC. Which, is a likely option in my opinion...
                                      I guess they will keep harrier for as long as possible / until some definitive solutions come out. The problem I see both for used Harriers and F35Bs is that there's no actual surplus of any of them. the USMC is keeping harriers far longer than expected because F35B is coming late and maybe even short of expected flight hours due to structural issues. Is not that the Spanish Harriers flight much anyway but I honestly fail to see any excess fighter of either of the aircraft in the short/medium-term

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                                        Originally posted by bandua View Post
                                        I guess they will keep harrier for as long as possible / until some definitive solutions come out. The problem I see both for used Harriers and F35Bs is that there's no actual surplus of any of them. the USMC is keeping harriers far longer than expected because F35B is coming late and maybe even short of expected flight hours due to structural issues. Is not that the Spanish Harriers flight much anyway but I honestly fail to see any excess fighter of either of the aircraft in the short/medium-term
                                        Odds are Spain will keep the Harriers for another several years. Which, would be about the time that some second hand F-35B's would be available....

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                                        • halloweene
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2012
                                          • 4337

                                          Thales, Indra and Hensoldt will be in charge of electronics...

                                          http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/tha...emand-20190415

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