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  • RALL
    Rank 4 Registered User
    • Aug 2017
    • 203

    Originally posted by bandua View Post

    I was well aware of Urcelays comments at the moment of making mine. Only I don't see who in the Spanish government will authorize the bill for the F35B plus I don't consider this embarked wing as a particularly interesting capability when considering Spanish logistics, budgets, international policies and approach to conflicts. Now, in here (https://publicaciones.defensa.gob.es...istas-pdf.html) you can download the Spanish defense magazine and when taking a look to page 44 where FCAS is considered, the information there is that 40 Eurofighter have been requested by the air force to substitute 80 F18s until FCAS arrives, no mention whatsoever to the F35. Plus in a recent comment in this regard what was stated was that F35 is the reference but that Eurofighter is the best option for Spain being that the reason why the Air Force has requested more Eurofighter. Which basically means"we would like to have F35 but for us (air force) the Eurofighter covers the needs plus we understand industrial considerations"
    Not that I believe that F35 doors are completely closed in Spain, nor that I wouldn't welcome a wing of F35A for the air force, but with current policies and budgets I think it is very unlikely to get them in the foreseeable future. FCAS and 40 more Eurofighter, however, are over the table as of now. Ones is the long term bet, the other the short term for substituting F18s and maintaining Spanish Eurofighter FAL open.
    If you read what Admiral Urcelay told, is that F-35B is out of discussion. It can have more debate about F-35A but not about F-35B coming to Spain on next future. And it is logical, we have islands and it is necesary anfibious force with naval fighters.

    And other thing...EF is expensive than F-35A. So, When you tell, that Spain can not buy F-35A because is expensive it does not have any sense to buy more expensive EF tranche 3. This is not logical and this is a political decition anyway.

    The reason for get more EF, also political is because need get fast deliveries for to replace older F-18, and it is not possible buying now F-35A.

    About what is talking Urcelay is about to buy F-35A around middle of next century when the last F-18 will need replacement, not now. You are talking about diferente things.
    Last edited by RALL; 4th April 2019, 15:41.

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    • Scorpion82
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jul 2005
      • 4480

      Originally posted by RALL View Post

      If you read what Admiral Urcelay told, is that F-35B is out of discussion. It can have more debate about F-35A but not about F-35B coming to Spain on next future. And it is logical, we have islands and it is necesary anfibious force with naval fighters.

      And other thing...EF is expensive than F-35A. So, When you tell, that Spain can not buy F-35A because is expensive it does not have any sense to buy more expensive EF tranche 3. This is not logical and this is a political decition anyway.

      The reason for get more EF, also political is because need get fast deliveries for to replace older F-18, and it is not possible buying now F-35A.

      About what is talking Urcelay is about to buy F-35A around middle of next century when the last F-18 will need replacement, not now. You are talking about diferente things.
      The fly-away unit price per T3 Eurofighter is probably not much different compared to an F-35. The primary cost driver for the F-35 compared to the Eurofighter would be the establishment of the support infrastructure and logistics in general. Those costs are significant and are the typical reason why the "system price" is often twice as high or higher than the fly-away price. There are ofcourse other factors such as the overall number of aircraft and how they are spread over units and airfields. Most cost comparisons are apples and oranges as the detailed cost breakdown is usually missing and as different offers are mostly not comparable.

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      • Sintra
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Aug 2007
        • 3849

        Originally posted by RALL View Post
        And other thing...EF is expensive than F-35A. So, When you tell, that Spain can not buy F-35A because is expensive it does not have any sense to buy more expensive EF tranche 3. .
        Pick the costs of acquiring some fourty Eurofighter T3s, for the Esercito (or the Luftwaffe) then multiply by two... or three. That would be the cost of implementing an entirely new aircraft into their fleet. The Phoon is already the backbone of their fleets, the suport, training, logistics are already in place.

        Originally posted by RALL View Post
        About what is talking Urcelay is about to buy F-35A around middle of next century when the last F-18 will need replacement, not now.
        The possible acquisition of F-35As by the Ejercito Del Aire "around middle of next century" looks very much dead.
        Unless a) Airbus gets out of Spain or b) the SCAF program crashes and burns or c) an entirely new Spanish Government makes a very radical U turn, the Spanish Air Force wont see Dave A in their colours.
        The Navy is trying to maintain some sort of hope for their fighter force, good luck, they are going to need it.
        Last edited by Sintra; 4th April 2019, 17:52.
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        • RALL
          Rank 4 Registered User
          • Aug 2017
          • 203

          Originally posted by Scorpion82 View Post

          The fly-away unit price per T3 Eurofighter is probably not much different compared to an F-35. The primary cost driver for the F-35 compared to the Eurofighter would be the establishment of the support infrastructure and logistics in general. Those costs are significant and are the typical reason why the "system price" is often twice as high or higher than the fly-away price. There are ofcourse other factors such as the overall number of aircraft and how they are spread over units and airfields. Most cost comparisons are apples and oranges as the detailed cost breakdown is usually missing and as different offers are mostly not comparable.
          Yes, but if you need to buy 50 EF, then with 35 F-35 is enough for to make same missions. So your unit/cost and total cost will be a lot less on the case of F-35 A. And less pilots are necesary too. Cost of new infraestructures is for all life of the F-35 (30-40 years), and you do not pay already on first month.

          Unit cost of EF is around 100 million euros, not less than this sure, for germany many years ago it was 90 million euros, so now will be worst. F-35 A is 89 million dollars on this moment, that is around 80 million euros now.

          Per hour operating cost of the F-35 A will be around 25.000 dollars at 2025 american official told, less than F-16. And for EF is similar to this number.
          Last edited by RALL; 5th April 2019, 10:15.

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          • RALL
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • Aug 2017
            • 203

            Originally posted by Sintra View Post

            Pick the costs of acquiring some fourty Eurofighter T3s, for the Esercito (or the Luftwaffe) then multiply by two... or three. That would be the cost of implementing an entirely new aircraft into their fleet. The Phoon is already the backbone of their fleets, the suport, training, logistics are already in place.



            The possible acquisition of F-35As by the Ejercito Del Aire "around middle of next century" looks very much dead.
            Unless a) Airbus gets out of Spain or b) the SCAF program crashes and burns or c) an entirely new Spanish Government makes a very radical U turn, the Spanish Air Force wont see Dave A in their colours.
            The Navy is trying to maintain some sort of hope for their fighter force, good luck, they are going to need it.
            SCAF program do not have nothing to do with adquisition or not of F-35 A.

            SCAF bornt to replace currents EFs and RAFALE on 2040 decade. We need replacement for around 80 F-18 before 2030 and it is not possible with only 30 or 40 more EFs.

            It is very clear preference from Ejercito del Aire is to have a mixture force with EF and F-35. So, F-35 A is open on this moment. Time will tell if finally version A will come around 2025-2030. But sure F-35B will come.


            https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-us...-idUKKCN1RG2O7
            In written testimony submitted to the U.S. House of Representatives and seen by Reuters, Vice Admiral Mathias Winter - the head of the Pentagons F-35 office - said that future potential Foreign Military Sales customers include Singapore, Greece, Romania, Spain and Poland.

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            • halloweene
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2012
              • 4351

              SCAF program is fully relevant. One can adapt Typhoon into SCAF. But F-35 is a closed system.

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              • TomcatViP
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Nov 2011
                • 6109

                that sounds funny, you know. The most connected fighter that many air force say revolutionize information sharing would be by you... a closed loop?!

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                • halloweene
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jan 2012
                  • 4351

                  It revolutionizes information sharin between compatible items. Words are not mine btw, but former NATO SACT.

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                  • TooCool_12f
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Dec 2009
                    • 3321

                    Originally posted by RALL View Post

                    And other thing...EF is expensive than F-35A. So, When you tell, that Spain can not buy F-35A because is expensive it does not have any sense to buy more expensive EF tranche 3. This is not logical and this is a political decition anyway.
                    EF is much cheaper for Spain than the F-35 for a very simple reason (besides the training and support infrastructures to put into place): It is built in Spain.. meaning, most of the money spent will remain in Spain and get back into spanish budget through taxes and so on... Buying the F-35 means sending it away, which is pretty much the same for their budget as shredding right there...

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                    • Guest's Avatar
                      Guest

                      Originally posted by bandua View Post

                      I was well aware of Urcelays comments at the moment of making mine. Only I don't see who in the Spanish government will authorize the bill for the F35B plus I don't consider this embarked wing as a particularly interesting capability when considering Spanish logistics, budgets, international policies and approach to conflicts. Now, in here (https://publicaciones.defensa.gob.es...istas-pdf.html) you can download the Spanish defense magazine and when taking a look to page 44 where FCAS is considered, the information there is that 40 Eurofighter have been requested by the air force to substitute 80 F18s until FCAS arrives, no mention whatsoever to the F35. Plus in a recent comment in this regard what was stated was that F35 is the reference but that Eurofighter is the best option for Spain being that the reason why the Air Force has requested more Eurofighter. Which basically means"we would like to have F35 but for us (air force) the Eurofighter covers the needs plus we understand industrial considerations"
                      Not that I believe that F35 doors are completely closed in Spain, nor that I wouldn't welcome a wing of F35A for the air force, but with current policies and budgets I think it is very unlikely to get them in the foreseeable future. FCAS and 40 more Eurofighter, however, are over the table as of now. Ones is the long term bet, the other the short term for substituting F18s and maintaining Spanish Eurofighter FAL open.
                      So, the Spanish Navy is going to get out of operating Fixed Wing Aircraft from the Juan Carlos I /BPE??? News to me.....

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                      • Guest's Avatar
                        Guest

                        [QUOTE=TooCool_12f;n3858833]

                        EF is much cheaper for Spain than the F-35 for a very simple reason (besides the training and support infrastructures to put into place): It is built in Spain.. meaning, most of the money spent will remain in Spain and get back into spanish budget through taxes and so on... Buying the F-35 means sending it away, which is pretty much the same for their budget as shredding right there...[/QUOTE

                        Please, provide us a source to support that??? I didn't realize Spain share was that large in the EuroFighter Program.

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                        • Deino
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 4226

                          hhm ... are we still in the "franco-german-next-generation-fighter" thread or has this become yet another F-35 vs F discussion pool?
                          ...

                          He was my North, my South, my East and West,
                          My working week and my Sunday rest,
                          My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
                          I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

                          The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
                          Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
                          Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
                          For nothing now can ever come to any good.
                          -------------------------------------------------
                          W.H.Auden (1945)

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                          • halloweene
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2012
                            • 4351

                            Apparently a much more impressive model of NGF will be displayed at Le Bourget.

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                            • TooCool_12f
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Dec 2009
                              • 3321

                              [QUOTE=Scooter;n3858885]
                              Originally posted by TooCool_12f View Post

                              EF is much cheaper for Spain than the F-35 for a very simple reason (besides the training and support infrastructures to put into place): It is built in Spain.. meaning, most of the money spent will remain in Spain and get back into spanish budget through taxes and so on... Buying the F-35 means sending it away, which is pretty much the same for their budget as shredding right there...[/QUOTE

                              Please, provide us a source to support that??? I didn't realize Spain share was that large in the EuroFighter Program.
                              a major reason for the Typhoon not benefiting of economy of scale while being ordered in quite significant numbers (for a european aircraft, that is) was the fact that every partner nation wanted (and got) its own assembly chain... So if spaniards order more Typhoons, they'll build them locally, just like the british would for and RAF order, germans for Luftwaffe order or italians for Aeronautica Militare order...

                              a rapid source (not always the most acurate, but in this case seems to be quite correct is wikipedia..

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofi...tion_and_costs

                              and precisely::

                              "The Eurofighter Typhoon is unique in modern combat aircraft in that there are four separate assembly lines. Each partner company assembles its own national aircraft, but builds the same parts for all aircraft (including exports); Premium AEROTEC (main centre fuselage[41]), EADS CASA (right wing, leading edge slats), BAE Systems (front fuselage (including foreplanes), canopy, dorsal spine, tail fin, inboard flaperons, rear fuselage section) and Leonardo (left wing, outboard flaperons, rear fuselage sections)."

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                              • Guest's Avatar
                                Guest

                                [QUOTE=TooCool_12f;n3859117]
                                Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                                a major reason for the Typhoon not benefiting of economy of scale while being ordered in quite significant numbers (for a european aircraft, that is) was the fact that every partner nation wanted (and got) its own assembly chain... So if spaniards order more Typhoons, they'll build them locally, just like the british would for and RAF order, germans for Luftwaffe order or italians for Aeronautica Militare order...

                                a rapid source (not always the most acurate, but in this case seems to be quite correct is wikipedia..

                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofi...tion_and_costs

                                and precisely::

                                "The Eurofighter Typhoon is unique in modern combat aircraft in that there are four separate assembly lines. Each partner company assembles its own national aircraft, but builds the same parts for all aircraft (including exports); Premium AEROTEC (main centre fuselage[41]), EADS CASA (right wing, leading edge slats), BAE Systems (front fuselage (including foreplanes), canopy, dorsal spine, tail fin, inboard flaperons, rear fuselage section) and Leonardo (left wing, outboard flaperons, rear fuselage sections)."

                                Sure and nothing wrong with a piece of the pie for one's self. Yet, that has to be weighed against the threat and the needs of one's military too!

                                So, in the case of Spain (and Germany) the Typhoon is no longer "adequate" against many near peer threats. Which, means it no longer benefits either nations military. Nor, the Alliance (NATO) that they're sworn to defend....




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                                • Guest's Avatar
                                  Guest

                                  Need I remind some that the NGF won't arrive for at least a good "20" years.

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                                  • halloweene
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2012
                                    • 4351

                                    Wow, you had a look into your crystal ball? Not everyone is LM and delays their programs for 15 years... About relevance of Typhoon, it is spanish problem, and i'm fairly sure they are expecting your expert's opinion.

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                                    • RALL
                                      Rank 4 Registered User
                                      • Aug 2017
                                      • 203

                                      [QUOTE=Scooter;n3859141]
                                      Originally posted by TooCool_12f View Post


                                      Sure and nothing wrong with a piece of the pie for one's self. Yet, that has to be weighed against the threat and the needs of one's military too!

                                      So, in the case of Spain (and Germany) the Typhoon is no longer "adequate" against many near peer threats. Which, means it no longer benefits either nations military. Nor, the Alliance (NATO) that they're sworn to defend....



                                      EF is a fabulous airplane and soon all fleet in Spain will be update with Aesa Captor radar + Meteor and other improvements.

                                      But it lacks on stealth, so combination EF+F-35 is perfect on my opinion. Both airplanes are complementary.

                                      Too it is better have 2 diferent types of airplanes because if only have 1 type, and it has some big problem, then all fleet will be on the ground for some time before issue is not resolved. With 2 diferent types, it is very difficult will happen as this.
                                      Last edited by RALL; 10th April 2019, 13:53.

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                                      • TomcatViP
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Nov 2011
                                        • 6109

                                        [QUOTE=TooCool_12f;n3859117]
                                        Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                                        a major reason for the Typhoon not benefiting of economy of scale while being ordered in quite significant numbers (for a european aircraft, that is) was the fact that every partner nation wanted (and got) its own assembly chain... So if spaniards order more Typhoons, they'll build them locally, just like the british would for and RAF order, germans for Luftwaffe order or italians for Aeronautica Militare order...

                                        a rapid source (not always the most acurate, but in this case seems to be quite correct is wikipedia..

                                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofi...tion_and_costs

                                        and precisely::

                                        "The Eurofighter Typhoon is unique in modern combat aircraft in that there are four separate assembly lines. Each partner company assembles its own national aircraft, but builds the same parts for all aircraft (including exports); Premium AEROTEC (main centre fuselage[41]), EADS CASA (right wing, leading edge slats), BAE Systems (front fuselage (including foreplanes), canopy, dorsal spine, tail fin, inboard flaperons, rear fuselage section) and Leonardo (left wing, outboard flaperons, rear fuselage sections)."
                                        you know that the F-16 was built on a same model, right? Many assembly or sub-assembly lines were located at partner location. I don't think that the economy of scale has ever been mentioned as being... altered to the point of compromising the program.

                                        The idea is where you source your components, how many of them and at what quality. The assembly line dissemination was only (probably) just one part of a the overall problem. The disaster with Airbus Puma gear boxes is the perfect example (they had two locations at a lower cost but with a horrendous quality discrepancy (I am always baffled that this has not led to any criminal investigation) ).
                                        Last edited by TomcatViP; 10th April 2019, 17:25.

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                                        • halloweene
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2012
                                          • 4351

                                          There is nothing such as Airbus Puma. Puma was built by aerospatiale and Westland. I never hear you screaming when a Chinook crashes btw.

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