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  • ThincanKiller
    Registered User
    • Feb 2019
    • 91

    Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
    And you think that is me?
    I don't know you so no i won't assume, but we all know how those songs goes...

    Comment

    • Marcellogo
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jun 2014
      • 1822

      Can we send a song in reply from Europe?

      With a special dedication to America's newest fighter: the F-15X!!!!!


      P.S. And if someone would think about any simpathy from my part toward France, I invite Him/Her to make a photo-query about my own avatar....


       
      Last edited by Marcellogo; 4th March 2019, 23:58.

      Comment

      • bandua
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Sep 2012
        • 76

        Originally posted by Scooter View Post

        Not a bad out come! What??? So, Spain should maintain a fleet of obsolete fighters for another 20+ years. Until the NGF is available!

        Also, the Spanish Navy is very influential. So, I wouldn't rule out getting at least a modest number of F-35B's for the Juan Carlos.
        Spain has huge budget constraints, and lets face it, we simply don't use this capabilities, neither do have the political will, or the economic and logistic capability to operate these LHD+F35B in any likely scenario where F35s might be required. The navy certainly has expresed its will for the acquisition of the F35s but there are several aspects that in my opinion make this purchase a bad business:
        - Budgets
        - Lack of active foreign military policies
        - Lack of budget to support even a small carrier group overseas (that is, not so close to our coast that the SpAF couldn't actually do the job)
        - Lack of logistics to support that carrier group.
        - Lack of industrial benefits of such a purchase (for anyone familiar with spanish un employment rates and the quality of the employment in the country that is a clear factor)
        - Need to allocate budget to many other areas not only in the armed forces but in the armada itself

        We had the Principe de Asturias an their harriers roughtly 30 years docked in Rota and that's probably what we will get out of the JCI + F35B.
        I sincerely believe that for similar investment an evolved and additional batch of S80 submarines to consolidate our currently pitifull submarine capabilities would provide a much better service for the Navy while helping to consolidate Navantia's submarine building capabilities.

        It would be nice to have them but it's simply absurd in our situation and I hope that this will be acknowledged when taking the decission. However the chief of the direccin general de armamento y material (basically the person in charge of managing military acquisitions) might have a different view since it comes from the navy and has no problems in possing with a F35B reproduction in spanish colors over his desk (https://www.infodefensa.com/es/2019/...ioridades.html).

        Comment

        • bandua
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Sep 2012
          • 76

          Originally posted by moon_light View Post

          That sound like Rafale and Eurofighter all over again
          It does.

          Comment

          • bandua
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Sep 2012
            • 76

            Originally posted by swerve View Post
            Not really. Rafale was France, Eurofighter UK, Germany, Italy & Spain. So far, the split on the new proposals looks like the UK, Italy & Sweden with Tempest, & France, Germany & Spain with the rival. Completely different split.
            the thing is that at this stage, purely political predefinition of the projects, we had all of them together 40 years ago. and the relevant part is that it looks that we will have again two competing models, which is being shown as a complete failure to have a strong European contender in most countries. several European proposals mean American purchases. I think that Airbus is acknowledging this while trying to get the UK in while Dassault has enough sharing with Germany. Politically France and Germany are trying to close ranks but by doing so they are excluding not only the UK which is not that strange in the context of Brexit but also Italy which I think is a mistake. France and Germany really need to integrate the European industry in common projects if they want to be able to compete. What they are trying to do is pretty obscene as the Italians have pointed out.
            I honestly don't think France and particularly Dassault is ready for this kind of international collaboration where huge industrial shares have to be allocated to different countries and nothing in their rhetoric suggests that they think in any other thing but making their partners pay and buy for a rafale 5.5. For now Airbus seems to be trying to create bridges with BAE despite the brexit while from france they seem no to want anybody in until the thing is done. I think airbus knows that once the thing is done nobody will want to get in. But anyway it is to early to know how this might look like in a few years from now.

            Comment

            • Guest's Avatar
              Guest

              Originally posted by bandua View Post

              Spain has huge budget constraints, and lets face it, we simply don't use this capabilities, neither do have the political will, or the economic and logistic capability to operate these LHD+F35B in any likely scenario where F35s might be required. The navy certainly has expresed its will for the acquisition of the F35s but there are several aspects that in my opinion make this purchase a bad business:
              - Budgets
              - Lack of active foreign military policies
              - Lack of budget to support even a small carrier group overseas (that is, not so close to our coast that the SpAF couldn't actually do the job)
              - Lack of logistics to support that carrier group.
              - Lack of industrial benefits of such a purchase (for anyone familiar with spanish un employment rates and the quality of the employment in the country that is a clear factor)
              - Need to allocate budget to many other areas not only in the armed forces but in the armada itself

              We had the Principe de Asturias an their harriers roughtly 30 years docked in Rota and that's probably what we will get out of the JCI + F35B.
              I sincerely believe that for similar investment an evolved and additional batch of S80 submarines to consolidate our currently pitifull submarine capabilities would provide a much better service for the Navy while helping to consolidate Navantia's submarine building capabilities.

              It would be nice to have them but it's simply absurd in our situation and I hope that this will be acknowledged when taking the decission. However the chief of the direccin general de armamento y material (basically the person in charge of managing military acquisitions) might have a different view since it comes from the navy and has no problems in possing with a F35B reproduction in spanish colors over his desk (https://www.infodefensa.com/es/2019/...ioridades.html).
              Clearly, the defense budget is tight in Spain. Yet, simple fact is they will need replacements for both the Hornet and Harrier II's. Yet, the NGF won't be available it time to replace them. So, something will have to give....

              Comment

              • Marcellogo
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jun 2014
                • 1822

                Originally posted by bandua View Post

                It does.
                I would say not, in the former case it started with a common programme, from which France went out as soon as it gained the knowledge necessary to produce the Rafale (...french).
                Now they start from the beginning with two separate programs (instead of three, as Sweden this time is in the Tempest team) and both with a number of partners enough for allow both a consistent initial orders with a certain advantage going to the Fr-De-Es there, than to a real contribution in terms of technology and expertise and in this the case, the advantage of UK-It-Swe is way greater.
                All settled then? I would dare to say not, as there are also some problem still lingering and others would surely arise: france would surely ask an absolute control into the definition of design (they didn't even wanted Spain to join) while I expect an abyss would arise between the respective requisites of members of other teams.

                Politics will also play a role: Brexit is looming,last election in Italy and the new ones in Spain and for the EU will change a lot of things...

                Comment

                • halloweene
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jan 2012
                  • 4304

                  Originally posted by Marcellogo View Post

                  I would say not, in the former case it started with a common programme, from which France went out as soon as it gained the knowledge necessary to produce the Rafale (...french).
                  Now they start from the beginning with two separate programs (instead of three, as Sweden this time is in the Tempest team) and both with a number of partners enough for allow both a consistent initial orders with a certain advantage going to the Fr-De-Es there, than to a real contribution in terms of technology and expertise and in this the case, the advantage of UK-It-Swe is way greater.
                  All settled then? I would dare to say not, as there are also some problem still lingering and others would surely arise: france would surely ask an absolute control into the definition of design (they didn't even wanted Spain to join) while I expect an abyss would arise between the respective requisites of members of other teams.

                  Politics will also play a role: Brexit is looming,last election in Italy and the new ones in Spain and for the EU will change a lot of things...
                  Went out as soon as... What knowledge they did not already have?

                  Comment

                  • Sintra
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Aug 2007
                    • 3838

                    Neither Sweden or Italy are partners in the UK program
                    sigpic

                    Comment

                    • XB-70
                      Rank 4 Registered User
                      • May 2018
                      • 272

                      Both programs are still in the very earliest stages. It remains to be seen who is really committed to them.

                      Comment

                      • MigL
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 191

                        Dassault can be rather arrogant and difficult to deal with.
                        But they have good reason ( and vast experience ), and at least you know what you are getting involved with.

                        Airbus, on the other hand, is partnered with the Italian Leonardo in ATR.
                        For years Leonardo wanted to develop a 100 seat regional jet successor to the ATR-42/72 range of turboprops, while Airbus always stalled them, saying the market wasn't ready, or non-existent. Leonardo was even thinking of developing it on their own, or with another partner.
                        Fast forward two years, and Airbus does an end-run around Leonardo by buying into our Canadian Bombardier C-series. Which happen to be 100 ( and up ) seat regional jets, added to their Airbus range as the 220, and completely locking Leonardo out of the regional market.( that's what the 'R' in ATR stands for )
                        How is that for dealing with Airbus.
                        The Italians, and Leonardo, would be better off dealing with the British, even if they leave the EU.

                        Comment

                        • Marcellogo
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jun 2014
                          • 1822

                          Originally posted by MigL View Post
                          Dassault can be rather arrogant and difficult to deal with.
                          But they have good reason ( and vast experience ), and at least you know what you are getting involved with.

                          Airbus, on the other hand, is partnered with the Italian Leonardo in ATR.
                          For years Leonardo wanted to develop a 100 seat regional jet successor to the ATR-42/72 range of turboprops, while Airbus always stalled them, saying the market wasn't ready, or non-existent. Leonardo was even thinking of developing it on their own, or with another partner.
                          Fast forward two years, and Airbus does an end-run around Leonardo by buying into our Canadian Bombardier C-series. Which happen to be 100 ( and up ) seat regional jets, added to their Airbus range as the 220, and completely locking Leonardo out of the regional market.( that's what the 'R' in ATR stands for )
                          How is that for dealing with Airbus.
                          The Italians, and Leonardo, would be better off dealing with the British, even if they leave the EU.
                          Absolutely, problem is Brexit there or better the mess they are doing of it.
                          Until it will not be clear the legal framework in which such a deal would operate, no concrete commitment would start.

                          Comment

                          • swerve
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jun 2005
                            • 13610

                            Originally posted by MigL View Post
                            Dassault can be rather arrogant and difficult to deal with.
                            But they have good reason ( and vast experience ), and at least you know what you are getting involved with.

                            Airbus, on the other hand, is partnered with the Italian Leonardo in ATR.
                            For years Leonardo wanted to develop a 100 seat regional jet successor to the ATR-42/72 range of turboprops, while Airbus always stalled them, saying the market wasn't ready, or non-existent. Leonardo was even thinking of developing it on their own, or with another partner.
                            Fast forward two years, and Airbus does an end-run around Leonardo by buying into our Canadian Bombardier C-series. Which happen to be 100 ( and up ) seat regional jets, added to their Airbus range as the 220, and completely locking Leonardo out of the regional market.( that's what the 'R' in ATR stands for )
                            How is that for dealing with Airbus.
                            The Italians, and Leonardo, would be better off dealing with the British, even if they leave the EU.
                            The Bombardier deal wasn't planned, though. It was sheer opportunism, taking advantage of Boeing bribsorrypersuading US legislators to try to destroy Bombardier. And anyway, I thought the Alenia proposals were for a 90-100 seater turboprop. The A220 is a jet, with the smallest being bigger than that, & >80% of orders being for the -300, which typically carries about 140 passengers. Doesn't sound like direct competition.
                            Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                            Justinian

                            Comment

                            • Marcellogo
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jun 2014
                              • 1822

                              Originally posted by halloweene View Post

                              Went out as soon as... What knowledge they did not already have?
                              I'm not saying they have stolen a specific knowledge from one or another: they entered in a common enterprise and once the project reached a point they went out unilaterally and continued all for themselves.
                              One thing is however 100% certain... they have stolen nothing about engines.

                              Comment

                              • RALL
                                Rank 4 Registered User
                                • Aug 2017
                                • 190

                                Originally posted by bandua View Post

                                Spain has huge budget constraints, and lets face it, we simply don't use this capabilities, neither do have the political will, or the economic and logistic capability to operate these LHD+F35B in any likely scenario where F35s might be required. The navy certainly has expresed its will for the acquisition of the F35s but there are several aspects that in my opinion make this purchase a bad business:
                                - Budgets
                                - Lack of active foreign military policies
                                - Lack of budget to support even a small carrier group overseas (that is, not so close to our coast that the SpAF couldn't actually do the job)
                                - Lack of logistics to support that carrier group.
                                - Lack of industrial benefits of such a purchase (for anyone familiar with spanish un employment rates and the quality of the employment in the country that is a clear factor)
                                - Need to allocate budget to many other areas not only in the armed forces but in the armada itself

                                We had the Principe de Asturias an their harriers roughtly 30 years docked in Rota and that's probably what we will get out of the JCI + F35B.
                                I sincerely believe that for similar investment an evolved and additional batch of S80 submarines to consolidate our currently pitifull submarine capabilities would provide a much better service for the Navy while helping to consolidate Navantia's submarine building capabilities.

                                It would be nice to have them but it's simply absurd in our situation and I hope that this will be acknowledged when taking the decission. However the chief of the direccin general de armamento y material (basically the person in charge of managing military acquisitions) might have a different view since it comes from the navy and has no problems in possing with a F35B reproduction in spanish colors over his desk (https://www.infodefensa.com/es/2019/...ioridades.html).
                                Admiral Urcelay, from few days ago.

                                https://www.infodefensa.com/es/2019/...r-harrier.html

                                They are working for get F-35B for Armada and in cooperation with Air force F-35 A.

                                But F-35B is out of question. It will come 12-15 units for Navy. It does not matter if finally dont come F-35 A for air force. Very clear what he told.

                                *************

                                On this year will come new contract for 20-30 EFs for to replace most old F-18 (after elections surely) because are most fast delivery than F-35, and later (2025-2030) it is possible will come some contract for F-35A for to replace rest of the F-18s. But F-35 B (12-15 units) for navy will come without any doubt.

                                New european fighter will come around 2035 for to replace most old EFs in spanish air force.
                                Last edited by RALL; 12th March 2019, 18:47.

                                Comment

                                • TomcatViP
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Nov 2011
                                  • 6001

                                  Originally posted by RALL View Post

                                  Admiral Urcelay, from few days ago.

                                  https://www.infodefensa.com/es/2019/...r-harrier.html

                                  They are working for get F-35B for Armada and in cooperation with Air force F-35 A.

                                  But F-35B is out of question. It will come 12-15 units for Navy. It does not matter if finally dont come F-35 A for air force. Very clear what he told.

                                  *************

                                  On this year will come new contract for 20-30 EFs for to replace most old F-18 (after elections surely) because are most fast delivery than F-35, and later (2025-2030) it is possible will come some contract for F-35A for to replace rest of the F-18s. But F-35 B (12-15 units) for navy will come without any doubt.

                                  New european fighter will come around 2035 for to replace most old EFs in spanish air force.
                                  Why not create a joint air force / navy unit, flying core strategic missions on Spanish carrier (med and shore) and find some place on other Navies flatops to go joint (Italy, UK, USMC, Asia)? It's not like a Bee (F35B) couldn't cover all the Spanish peninsula. Increasing the number of Bee to match a well balanced ratio of the level needed by the Airforce will magically creates some room for savings...
                                  Last edited by TomcatViP; 12th March 2019, 20:47.

                                  Comment

                                  • RALL
                                    Rank 4 Registered User
                                    • Aug 2017
                                    • 190

                                    Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post

                                    Why not create a joint air force / navy unit, flying core strategic missions on Spanish carrier (med and shore) and find some place on other Navies flatops to go joint (Italy, UK, USMC, Asia)? It's not like a Bee (F35B) couldn't cover all the Spanish peninsula. Increasing the number of Bee to match a well balanced ratio of the level needed by the Airforce will magically creates some room for savings...
                                    Well, its an option, but i do not like really.

                                    F-35 A is cheaper than F-35B, it has bigger weapons bay and bigger combat radius, so for Air force is better choose F-35 A.

                                    F-35A and F-35B to share around 60-70% of the pieces, so in any case it will have good synergies.

                                    Comment

                                    • J-20
                                      Rank 4 Registered User
                                      • Jan 2018
                                      • 138

                                      so what's the current design. NGF or FCAS?

                                      Comment

                                      • halloweene
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2012
                                        • 4304

                                        FCAS is a system of systems. Includes Rafale, Euromale, NGF, S/A missiles, next gen ammunitions etc.
                                        FCAS-DP was a UCAV drone program between UK (dropped out) and France.
                                        NGF (next fighter platform) well be led by DA.

                                        Comment

                                        • bandua
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Sep 2012
                                          • 76

                                          Originally posted by RALL View Post

                                          Admiral Urcelay, from few days ago.

                                          https://www.infodefensa.com/es/2019/...r-harrier.html

                                          They are working for get F-35B for Armada and in cooperation with Air force F-35 A.

                                          But F-35B is out of question. It will come 12-15 units for Navy. It does not matter if finally dont come F-35 A for air force. Very clear what he told.

                                          *************

                                          On this year will come new contract for 20-30 EFs for to replace most old F-18 (after elections surely) because are most fast delivery than F-35, and later (2025-2030) it is possible will come some contract for F-35A for to replace rest of the F-18s. But F-35 B (12-15 units) for navy will come without any doubt.

                                          New european fighter will come around 2035 for to replace most old EFs in spanish air force.
                                          I was well aware of Urcelays comments at the moment of making mine. Only I don't see who in the Spanish government will authorize the bill for the F35B plus I don't consider this embarked wing as a particularly interesting capability when considering Spanish logistics, budgets, international policies and approach to conflicts. Now, in here (https://publicaciones.defensa.gob.es...istas-pdf.html) you can download the Spanish defense magazine and when taking a look to page 44 where FCAS is considered, the information there is that 40 Eurofighter have been requested by the air force to substitute 80 F18s until FCAS arrives, no mention whatsoever to the F35. Plus in a recent comment in this regard what was stated was that F35 is the reference but that Eurofighter is the best option for Spain being that the reason why the Air Force has requested more Eurofighter. Which basically means"we would like to have F35 but for us (air force) the Eurofighter covers the needs plus we understand industrial considerations"
                                          Not that I believe that F35 doors are completely closed in Spain, nor that I wouldn't welcome a wing of F35A for the air force, but with current policies and budgets I think it is very unlikely to get them in the foreseeable future. FCAS and 40 more Eurofighter, however, are over the table as of now. Ones is the long term bet, the other the short term for substituting F18s and maintaining Spanish Eurofighter FAL open.

                                          Comment

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