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  • Marcellogo
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jun 2014
    • 1838

    And an influent and well respected politician, even if of a minor party.

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    • stealthflanker
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Sep 2015
      • 1015

      so nothing wrong with that right.. ? Italy can go Tempest with British while FCAS will be German-French with rest of EU.

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      • Marcellogo
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jun 2014
        • 1838

        Not just Italy, Sweden is in the Tempest bandwagon also.

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        • moon_light
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • May 2012
          • 1029

          Originally posted by Marcellogo View Post
          Not just Italy, Sweden is in the Tempest bandwagon also.
          That sound like Rafale and Eurofighter all over again

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          • XB-70
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • May 2018
            • 350

            How can frequency hopping be slower when it is acting while DRFM is reacting?.
            It's not. DRFM is a technique for digitally creating and/or processing a modulated, pulsed waveform. Frequency hopping (and also sometimes phase shift keying) are the modulation techniques used. Different things.

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            • halloweene
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2012
              • 4350

              Originally posted by moon_light View Post
              How can frequency hopping be slower when it is acting while DRFM is reacting?.
              Because you must receive the radar return before switching frequency. ( i have toadmit it is measured in msec.) andswitching frequency is not an instant process.

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              • halloweene
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2012
                • 4350

                France and Germany wanted to avoid the definition issues that happened during A400 or Eurofighter program. If italy want to join after definition phase, they would surely be welcome.

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                • eagle1
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Feb 2011
                  • 1125

                  France made the right move taking the lead of the program...At least for its own interest.

                  Including Italy or/and the UK in the program would give each country a very small indutrial share...At least too small for France who like the UK wants to maintain the full spectrum of know-how to build a high end fighter jet.

                  Germany could be the right partner if the political will does not errode over time. Financially in good shape and not willing to take the lead.

                  I think that when France says that others (UK/Italy/Sweeden) are free to join provided the Franco/German leadership remains unchanged they know that the UK and to a lesser extent Italy would never accept this condition. They surely want to play a bigger role.

                  Sure they must be quite angry at the situation as France & Germany moved quickly to be in the stonger position.

                  UK/Italy for Tempest seems a good ticket for them to maintain a good industrial basis...Impossible with the Franco German program. So instead of having 3 different program in Europe we would have only 2...Already a progress !

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                  • moon_light
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • May 2012
                    • 1029

                    Originally posted by halloweene View Post
                    Because you must receive the radar return before switching frequency. ( i have toadmit it is measured in msec.) andswitching frequency is not an instant process.
                    With all due respect, that is not accurate, for example a compressed pulse consist of many sub pulses at different frequencies = radar can change frequency before it receive the returns.

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                    • jamesm
                      Administrator
                      • Dec 2016
                      • 209

                      Re-opened after cleanup.

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                      • Aurel
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Oct 2003
                        • 1178

                        Originally posted by eagle1 View Post
                        France made the right move taking the lead of the program...At least for its own interest.

                        Including Italy or/and the UK in the program would give each country a very small indutrial share...At least too small for France who like the UK wants to maintain the full spectrum of know-how to build a high end fighter jet.

                        Germany could be the right partner if the political will does not errode over time. Financially in good shape and not willing to take the lead.

                        I think that when France says that others (UK/Italy/Sweeden) are free to join provided the Franco/German leadership remains unchanged they know that the UK and to a lesser extent Italy would never accept this condition. They surely want to play a bigger role.

                        Sure they must be quite angry at the situation as France & Germany moved quickly to be in the stonger position.

                        UK/Italy for Tempest seems a good ticket for them to maintain a good industrial basis...Impossible with the Franco German program. So instead of having 3 different program in Europe we would have only 2...Already a progress !

                        Imho the title is a bit misleading. It's basically a French programme with backing from the current German government. The specs are French, the largest part of the workshare will be French. Maybe it will succeed if the French taxpayer is willing to shoulder the lion's share of the development costs.
                        But that's not the only issue. The other obstacle are export policies. France is more or less willing to sell to everyone able to pay while every large political party in Germany prefers a holier-than-thou approach to arms exports.
                        "Contributing" to Gripen NG would have been a better idea considering fiscal realities and military ambitions over here in Germany.

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                        • JSR
                          JSR
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Aug 2011
                          • 4976

                          6G fighter is so expensive that I will not be surpized Germany abandoned it midway. like around 2025.

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                          • swerve
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jun 2005
                            • 13610

                            Originally posted by moon_light View Post

                            That sound like Rafale and Eurofighter all over again
                            Not really. Rafale was France, Eurofighter UK, Germany, Italy & Spain. So far, the split on the new proposals looks like the UK, Italy & Sweden with Tempest, & France, Germany & Spain with the rival. Completely different split.

                            Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                            Justinian

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                            • TomcatViP
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Nov 2011
                              • 6107

                              Without calling Germans an alibi, we still have Dassault essentially isolated from the market... (if that doesn't sound as an anachronism to you...)

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                              • halloweene
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jan 2012
                                • 4350

                                What is your problem with Dassault (they will deliver 26 Rafale next year btw).?

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                                • halloweene
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2012
                                  • 4350

                                  Originally posted by moon_light View Post
                                  With all due respect, that is not accurate, for example a compressed pulse consist of many sub pulses at different frequencies = radar can change frequency before it receive the returns.
                                  point is you do not have to cancle the whole signal, just mess it up enough to be non significant.

                                  Comment

                                  • ThincanKiller
                                    Registered User
                                    • Feb 2019
                                    • 91

                                    Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                                    Without calling Germans an alibi, we still have Dassault essentially isolated from the market... (if that doesn't sound as an anachronism to you...)
                                    Well no, it certainly doesn't, and what isolates Dassault from other manufacturers in western Europe is their level of expertise, the bit you can't invent by printing P.R cards before an airshow because everyone knows their bit before getting there.

                                    Germany or any other potential partner would be welcome for sure, but it is more about financial weight than anything else, even so work would be shared, not only Dassault is well capable of doing it entirely on their own given the budget, but France as a whole is the only country which has consistently designed and developed her own indigenous fighters since BAe produced Harrier II, you're talking airframe, engines, systems.

                                    The Sweedes relies on the US for their engines technology, Germany haven't designed on her own a single front line fighter since WWII, where do you get the full capabilities and expertise from in Western Europe then?

                                    More to the point, it is Airbus which is involved, be it the German side of it, they don't have the know-how when it comes to fighter design but the financial weight, so Dassault are not isolated, they come up as leaders, once again.

                                    Originally posted by eagle1 View Post
                                    France made the right move taking the lead of the program...At least for its own interest.
                                    Originally posted by eagle1 View Post
                                    Including Italy or/and the UK in the program would give each country a very small indutrial share...At least too small for France who like the UK wants to maintain the full spectrum of know-how to build a high end fighter jet.
                                    Germany could be the right partner if the political will does not errode over time. Financially in good shape and not willing to take the lead.
                                    I think that when France says that others (UK/Italy/Sweeden) are free to join provided the Franco/German leadership remains unchanged they know that the UK and to a lesser extent Italy would never accept this condition. They surely want to play a bigger role.
                                    Sure they must be quite angry at the situation as France & Germany moved quickly to be in the stonger position.
                                    UK/Italy for Tempest seems a good ticket for them to maintain a good industrial basis...Impossible with the Franco German program. So instead of having 3 different program in Europe we would have only 2...Already a progress !

                                    We agree on most points except for a few details:

                                    France leaderships in the field is based on experience and know-how but also it is a politico-industrial strategic policy, from BAe PoV, it is very much the same, they need to retain their leadership in a joint project so as to maintain their design capabilities, this sort of thing you can't pull of a hat, so i can't see a joint venture France/UK except if the politician get involved, at industrial levels it doesn't make sense and isn't even healthy, they need competition.

                                    I don't see it as being "Fance/Germany,UK" thing, it's more about manufacturers and financial resources, you have the big players like Airbus, BAe, Dassault, SAAB, and the other little guys, but who is involved and who can do what is more important than from where.

                                    Italy is in no position to claim a bigger role, they simply don't have the level of expertise for that.








                                    Last edited by ThincanKiller; 4th March 2019, 09:42.

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                                    • TomcatViP
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Nov 2011
                                      • 6107

                                      As the song says, "Don't worry be happy":
                                      Last edited by TomcatViP; 4th March 2019, 13:44.

                                      Comment

                                      • ThincanKiller
                                        Registered User
                                        • Feb 2019
                                        • 91

                                        Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                                        As the song say, "Don't worry be happy":
                                        I know another one which was saying for years that Rafale couldn't supercruise or pull 11.0g, very popular in some Anglo-American forums...

                                        Comment

                                        • TomcatViP
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Nov 2011
                                          • 6107

                                          And you think that is me?

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