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  • Spitfire9
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jul 2008
    • 2747

    Switzerland fighter replacement plan restarted

    Switzerland on Friday kicked off a multibillion-franc competition to replace its ageing fleet of F-5 fighter jets, and older model F/A-18 fighters, inviting five European and U.S. weapons makers to submit bids by January.

    The Swiss defence ministry asked for bids from European aerospace group Airbus, Frances Dassault and Swedens Saab, as well as Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the United States.
    The Swiss procurement agency said it was asking the firms to submit pricing for 30 or 40 planes, including logistics and guided missiles, as well as an assessment of the number of aircraft necessary to fulfil the Swiss Air Forces needs.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/swis...-idUSL8N1U242W

    So all the normal candidates (except F/A-18) will be considered. I find it interesting that the OEM's making the more expensive aircraft will be arguing that while more expensive than Gripen E a smaller number will be needed to do the same job. I see some nice fat profits on the cards for LM, Dassault or Eurofighter if they win.
    Sum ergo cogito
  • Spitfire9
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jul 2008
    • 2747

    #2
    ERROR

    Sorry - can't edit my post. I missed seeing Boeing is included so I guess that means F/A-18 IS included.
    Sum ergo cogito

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    • XB-70
      Rank 3 Registered User
      • May 2018
      • 157

      #3
      I really see Switzerland going with the cheap option. And that is not bad plan when you are Switzerland and never go to war.

      Comment

      • TooCool_12f
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Dec 2009
        • 3281

        #4
        as they require to perform the test flights, I wonder how it will go on with LM, as there's no two seater F-35 and I doubt they train a swiss pilot (or more) "just in case" to let him to whatever he wants with the aircraft

        Comment

        • TomcatViP
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Nov 2011
          • 5759

          #5
          So you do think that you buy an F-35 without ever trying it? Just like an icecream?
          Last edited by TomcatViP; 9th July 2018, 15:20.

          Comment

          • SpudmanWP
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2009
            • 5137

            #6
            It's can't cost that much to go through F-35 school.
            "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

            Comment

            • TooCool_12f
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Dec 2009
              • 3281

              #7
              Well, all buyers until now did, in Canada, who wanted to try the contenders, LM said "there's no need to try, we're the best"... several LM supporters said on several occasions that there's little chance that a potentially buying country does a flight test as there's no two seater (all tests for other contenders are done with a qualified pilot in a back seat, as a safety measure).. so I simply wondered what LM will respond to the "flight test requirement"

              Comment

              • SpudmanWP
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2009
                • 5137

                #8
                Who says that the "flight test" has to be a Swiss pilot? Not doubting, just asking.
                "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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                • TooCool_12f
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Dec 2009
                  • 3281

                  #9
                  I guess the swiss... they did all their testing until now... they have their own test pilots, flight test unit, procedures and so on.. so, as says a buddy of mine, (diver) "wet and sea"

                  Comment

                  • TomcatViP
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Nov 2011
                    • 5759

                    #10
                    I think this point was already cleared with the RFI published some month ago Would be good to go through the old thread.
                    And why does we have to have this new one ?

                    Comment

                    • SpudmanWP
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 5137

                      #11
                      Hence my "why not train a pilot" thought.

                      On a more serious note, what really would be gained by having a Swiss pilot in the cockpit that could not be also gained by a combination of sending a Swiss pilot through the course and observing an LM/DoD/JPO pilot with a DART pod attached?

                      The coursework & simulator time will make them aware of the pilot workload & how it responds to pilot inputs and the DART will confirm physical & kinematic attributes. BDA is self evident. Also, would anyone turn away the F-22 given the same restrictions?
                      "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

                      Comment

                      • TooCool_12f
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 3281

                        #12
                        I don't know, that's why I wondered how it will turn out

                        Comment

                        • SpudmanWP
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 5137

                          #13
                          This is the only part of the RFP that pertains to testing that I could find.

                          {translated from French}
                          4.1 Requirements imposed
                          4. At least part of the flight and ground tests shall be carried out in Switzerland for all candidates for the acquisition of the next aircraft of fight

                          4.2 Desirable characteristics
                          1. As far as possible, the evaluated combat aircraft will be flown by Swiss pilots during flight tests.
                          2. To improve knowledge of the system, it would be wise to have a core team composed of Swiss industry and army personnel collaborates with the manufacturer or a representative of the manufacturer for the final assembly of the next aircraft beats. Final assembly in Switzerland is not a requirement, but this possibility However, it is not excluded either.
                          3. To increase the degree of autonomy, efforts should be made to acquire the rights of for the autonomous development of C2 software (Bodluv, system of airspace surveillance).
                          https://www.newsd.admin.ch/newsd/mes...ents/51784.pdf
                          Last edited by SpudmanWP; 9th July 2018, 16:22.
                          "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

                          Comment

                          • SpudmanWP
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 5137

                            #14
                            Don't forget that the RFP includes a SAM component. My personal pic, NASAMs with AMRAAM-ER for the medium-range SAM and land-based SM-6 for the long-range SAM.
                            "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

                            Comment

                            • KGB
                              KGB
                              Senior Member
                              • Mar 2016
                              • 1426

                              #15
                              Switzerland like to pride itself on neutrality. The F-35 is a defacto military alliance with the US. So Im not sure why its even in the competition.

                              It would be most practical to deal with someone in continental Europe. That's the Gripen or the Dassault.

                              Comment

                              • SpudmanWP
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jan 2009
                                • 5137

                                #16
                                How so? They are flying F-5s and F-18s now without an issue.
                                "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

                                Comment

                                • EC 5/25 Corsair
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Apr 2015
                                  • 128

                                  #17
                                  SM-6s and F-35s for Switzerland, hah!! Can't think of a worse match, hm, why not some B-21s?

                                  Also, Swiss have expressed concern a couple of years back regarding control over AMRAAMs and GPS codes. ALIS (heck, the whole JSF) is surely a worrying beast for any country that cares a bit about operational autonomy and doesn't have US support for granted.

                                  Comment

                                  • SpudmanWP
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2009
                                    • 5137

                                    #18
                                    Plenty of nations have bought F-16s & F-18s (including the Swiss) without getting access to the "codes" and it did not seem to bother them.
                                    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

                                    Comment

                                    • TomcatViP
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Nov 2011
                                      • 5759

                                      #19
                                      And the "Alis" concerns, as we should put it for you, are already answered in the RFI (and in the old thread).

                                      Comment

                                      • SpudmanWP
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2009
                                        • 5137

                                        #20
                                        What specific ALIS concern?

                                        I can operate for long periods "off the net" and can filter outgoing data to ensure that any sensitive data is not "passed up the chain".
                                        "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

                                        Comment

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