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  • FalconDude
    Rank 5 Registered User

    Su-57 News and Discussion -version_we_lost_count!-

    Hey all

    Let's use this thread as a provisional place to continue the discussion about this awesome aircraft; until the previous thread(s) resurface.

    Last thing on the agenda was some interview(?) or statements by some Russian officials about the future of the plane.
  • Krivakapa
    Rank 5 Registered User

    #2
    Su-57 is lot more expensive then Su-34/35, so it is expensive for today's Russia and money is problem. It is good we have confirmation by Russian officials about price of plane. I don't see that as huge failure because Su-57 was planned when economy was lot better but saying Su-57 small numbers doesn't matter is nonsense. Why would they developed Su-57 and planned for 200 planes if Flankers are good enough?

    I would love to see they had backup plan, something like Silent Flanker or they are planing to have one (offered to India as part od Super 30) but I really don't that because they consider old Flanker design good enough for future.

    Comment

    • ActionJackson
      Rank 5 Registered User

      #3
      Is this the same issue that I remember happened a long time ago when the thread starter deleted his original post (Joe Asakura) which in turn deleted the thread? Perhaps if the thread starter is not someone who's likely to have a tantrum and thread delete when articles like below get a bit of attention, or if knuckle draggers could just control their emotions a bit better and not have threads deleted by admins.

      http://militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=485254

      Moscow. On July 4. Interfax-AVn - Promising fighter Su-57 it is necessary to consider as excellent aircraft with the export potential, but main efforts must be concentrated during the creation of transitional machine, stated on Wednesday “to Interfax-AVN” the head of the commission of the State Duma for the legal guarantee of development of organizations OPK, the first Vice President of the union of the machine builders of RF Vladimir Gutenev.

      “I assume that the fighter of the sixth generation will be the transitional machine between the aircraft, still controlled by man, and in the pilotless intellectual impact complexes (BIUK) - in this case we speak about air BIUK, which can because of their intellect carry out stated problems by the, including sufficiently concentrated groups”, he said, commenting on the statement of the Vice-Premier of Russian Federation of Yuri Borisov, that mass deliveries in VKS of Russia the fighters of the fifth generation Su-57 within the next few years it will not be.

      “I am to a considerable degree solidary with the words Yuri Ivanovich (Borisov) apropos of the fact that hardly is worth expecting the concentrated purchases Su-57”, noted V. Gutenev. “With the undoubted merits of this machine we, it is certain, we understand, that the start to program was daN still in 2001, and the implementation of program on a whole series of objective reasons was tightened (originally it was planned in 2006 - 2007 to conduct flight tests, and since 2014 already to supply the troops), in connection with the very dynamic development of technologies - this concerns the systems of electroninc warfare, and new composite materials, and the new opportunities, which allow additive technologies from the point of view of the design reduction of prices of machines”, it established.

      “Well, and certainly, this is connected with the fact that we possess the very perfect machines - this Su-34 and Su-35, which themselves appeared well”, noted V. Gutenev. “Up to 2023-2024 on Su-57 is not assumed installation of the motor of the second stage, whose tests only began, this - “article 30”, and without looking at the fact that our machine is considerably cheaper (according to my estimations, 2.5 times, than the foreign analogs of the 5th generation), but nevertheless it considerably more expensive requires thinner services in comparison with Su-34 and Su-35”, added V. Gutenev.

      “Therefore I am solidary with the opinion Yuri Ivanovich (Borisov), according to whom we already have an experience, when because of the reasonable technical policy actually they jumped over through the generation, to a considerable degree economizing budget”, he said. “We for sure could within the framework of a short term stay in February of this year our machines Su-57 in Syria refine a number of the possible and associated data according to the ability F-22 and F-35 on the detection of our aircraft - telemetry gave essential occasion for their improvement”, noted V. Gutenev.

      “Therefore concentration (efforts) during the transitional, 6th generation, me seems, it would be much more expedient, and the 5th generation must serve in the maloseriynom version finalizing the technical tasks, which would make it possible from one side to capitalize on the outside markets for the expenditures, carried along this machine, and the other side - to improve systems (promising aircraft)”, it were confident V. Gutenev.

      “This is - the extremely rational and correct approach, which ensures the balance between the interests of defense-industrial complex (OPK) and customer”, it counts. Deputy assumes that in the interests OPK it would be “sufficient simply to form export appearance Su-57 with the engine of the second stage”. “This is - the absolutely accurate and pragmatic solution”, it is confident.

      Comment

      • FalconDude
        Rank 5 Registered User

        #4
        Originally posted by ActionJackson
        .....
        If my memory serves the above translation is a bit different to the original.

        It would be nice if russian speaking members offered their views on the original release.

        Comment

        • ActionJackson
          Rank 5 Registered User

          #5
          This needs to be discussed.

          One does not simply admit real world testing of their own aircraft's detectability against competitor stealth aircraft, admit major deficiencies and cost issues, then within the same conference say they are not going to pursue the current aircraft seriously unless there's an acute problem.

          The part that interests me the most from a technical level is below. I ran this sentence through multiple translators and they all say pretty much the same thing:

          "Мы наверняка смогли в рамках краткосрочного пребывания в феврале с.г. наших машин Су-57 в Сирии уточнить ряд возможных и сопутствующих данных по способности F-22 и F-35 по обнаружению наших самолетов - телеметрия дала существенный повод для их совершенствования", - отметил В.Гутенев.
          Therefore I am solidary with the opinion Yuri Ivanovich (Borisov), according to whom we already have an experience, when because of the reasonable technical policy actually they jumped over through the generation, to a considerable degree economizing budget, he said. We for sure could within the framework of a short term stay in February of this year our machines Su-57 in Syria refine a number of the possible and associated data according to the ability F-22 and F-35 on the detection of our aircraft - telemetry gave essential occasion for their improvement, noted V. Gutenev.
          In all translations, the theme is the same....

          "We tested the ability of our aircraft to be detected by the F-22 and F-35 in a short deployment to Syria. After gathering the data, we found significant cause for their (the Su-57s') improvement"

          Other translations....

          "telemetry gave a significant reason for their improvement"
          "telemetry gave considerable cause for their improvement"
          "telemetry gave essential reason for their perfecting"

          What the hell did they do? Did they fly their T-50s towards the Eurphrates and Israeli border and watch all the legacy aircraft divert to them much sooner than they expected or detect AWACs radars getting queued towards them by Raptors? Did they try it as a propaganda stunt (take some IRST happy snaps of a retreating F-22) but it backfired horribly, which is why they were only there a few days before heading home?

          I hardly see a need for them to use the Syrian EW environment for a backdrop to perform detection tests and mock BVR engagements with their own Su-35s.

          Is it what the people who matter have been saying all along that unless you're the stealthiest aircraft in the sky, there's no point trying (reference to: First shot, First kill).
          Last edited by ActionJackson; 5th July 2018, 12:18.

          Comment

          • FalconDude
            Rank 5 Registered User

            #6
            It most definitely needs to be discussed !

            Comment

            • haavarla
              Rank 5 Registered User

              #7
              If the Su-57 cost $70mill a pop. It might be true.
              We know by now the price of Su-30SM and Su-35S, which is around half of $70 mill.
              But there is ofcourse the issue of expected total produced airframes coming out of KnAAZ production line.

              I would also like to point out that Russia is not in any bad shape economical.
              With oil and gass ruble pouring in from very favorable oil and gas price.
              Russia still have far lower dept compaired to other countries.

              With a defense budget around $55-60 billion, this means Su-57 will be bought in batches, in order to give other programs sufficient funding.

              But still far from ActionHaction doom nd gloom above.
              Those guys over at F-16.net have been screaming bankruptcy, cancelation and doom for years over years now, and reality is Flanker production is in a very healty situation.
              Export orders are still coming their way. Between Su-30SM and Su-35S i believe we are over 250 units produced since 2011.
              Add 22 new Su-30M2 and 12 new Su-27SM3 and many overhauled Flankers on this timeframe.

              Faar cry from any doom and gloom i would say��
              Last edited by haavarla; 5th July 2018, 16:00.
              Thanks

              Comment

              • ActionJackson
                Rank 5 Registered User

                #8
                I think the original text was just google translate....

                The Su-57 should be considered as an aircraft with export potential, and efforts should be concentrated on the creation of a fighter of the 6th generation - Gutenev
                07/04/2018 15:40:54
                Moscow. 4th of July. Interfax-AVN - The Su-57 fighter should be considered as a fine aircraft with export potential, but the main efforts should be focused on creating a transitional machine, the head of the State Duma commission for legal support of the development of defense industry organizations, the first vice- president of the Union of Machine Builders of the Russian Federation Vladimir Gutenev.
                "I believe that the sixth-generation fighter will be a transitional vehicle between manned aircraft and unmanned intellectual shock complexes (BIOK) - in this case we are talking about aerial BIKU that can, thanks to their intellect, carry out the tasks set, including those that are sufficiently massive groups, "he said, commenting on the statement by Yury Borisov, Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation, that there will be no mass deliveries of the fifth generation of Su-57 fighters to Russia.
                "I am largely in agreement with the words of Yuri Ivanovich (Borisov) about the fact that it is hardly worthwhile to expect a massive purchase of the Su-57," Gutenev said.
                "Given the undoubted merits of this machine, we certainly understand that the program was launched in 2001, and the implementation of the program for a number of objective reasons was delayed (initially it was planned in 2006-2007 to conduct flight tests, and from 2014 already deliver in the troops), in connection with the very dynamic development of technology - this applies to the systems of electronic warfare, and new composite materials, and new opportunities that additive technologies provide in terms of constructive cheaper machines, "- konstestirov Al he.
                "Well, of course, this is due to the fact that we have very sophisticated machines - the Su-34 and Su-35, which showed themselves well," said V.Gutenev. "Until 2023-2024 on the Su-57 is not supposed to install the engine of the second stage, the test of which has just started, it is" Product 30 ", and despite the fact that our car is much cheaper (according to my estimates, 2.5 times , than foreign analogues of the 5th generation), but still it is much more expensive and requires more fine services in comparison with the Su-34 and Su-35, "added V.Gutenev.
                "Therefore, I agree with the opinion of Yuri Ivanovich (Borisov), according to which we already have experience, when thanks to reasonable technical policy we actually jumped through the generation, saving the budget to a considerable extent," he said.
                "We were probably able to clarify a number of possible and accompanying data on the ability of the F-22 and F-35 to detect our aircraft in the short-term stay of our Su-57s in Syria in February this year - telemetry provided a significant reason for their improvement," - said V.Gutenev.
                "Therefore, the concentration (effort) in the transitional, 6th generation, it seems to me, would be much more appropriate, and the 5th generation should serve in a small-series variant to develop technical tasks that would allow on the one hand to capitalize in foreign markets the costs incurred on this machine, and on the other hand - to improve the system (of prospective aircraft), "V.Gutenev is sure.
                "This is an extremely rational and correct approach, ensuring a balance between the interests of the defense industry complex and the customer," he said.
                The deputy believes that in the interests of the defense industry it would be "simply enough to form the export image of the Su-57 with the engine of the second stage."
                "This is absolutely correct and pragmatic solution," he said.

                Comment

                • ActionJackson
                  Rank 5 Registered User

                  #9
                  Page needs a pic...

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Comment

                  • KGB
                    KGB
                    Senior Member

                    #10
                    Vintage ActionJackson making something out of totally nothing. The point of what he was saying is that they did some very rigorous testing in Syria. Because the defense dept was being challenged for brining the su 57 to Syria at all. That is the context of why he was saying this.
                    Last edited by KGB; 5th July 2018, 12:30.

                    Comment

                    • ActionJackson
                      Rank 5 Registered User

                      #11
                      Nope, he was way more specific than that.

                      “We for sure could within the framework of a short term stay in February of this year our machines Su-57 in Syria refine a number of the possible and associated data according to the ability F-22 and F-35 on the detection of our aircraft - telemetry gave essential occasion for their improvement”, noted V. Gutenev.
                      Syria is the only place in the world where Russia could get close enough to test their signature against both F-22s and F-35s. That was the whole reason for the deployment. That alone speaks volumes about Russia's ability to simulate the US military's radar capabilities as well. They couldn't simulate it at home, so they had to test the aircraft on the real thing.

                      Lets move on to frontal aspect stealth and attention to minor details in stealth shaping (though I did have the forethought to back up my conversation with Trident last thread, will repost when I get a chance).

                      So happy to see my time spent on an intellectual pursuit validated, I made it my signature.
                      Last edited by ActionJackson; 5th July 2018, 12:56.

                      Comment

                      • KGB
                        KGB
                        Senior Member

                        #12
                        I'm really just speechless if you think that means anything other than "yes bringing the su 57 to Syria was totally worth it because we gained some valuble data and we are making improvements based on that data"

                        Look at his new signature. That's someone whos running a political witchhunt . But whatever.

                        Suggesting that a program is a failure in the same week that the first actual orders for the new jet were signed, is politically charged partisan nonsense.
                        Last edited by KGB; 5th July 2018, 13:52.

                        Comment

                        • ActionJackson
                          Rank 5 Registered User

                          #13
                          Did Pete Goon's "Capability Surprise" just completely happen in reverse?

                          http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-230210-1.html

                          Comment

                          • Bellum
                            Rank 5 Registered User

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ActionJackson
                            Is this the same issue that I remember happened a long time ago when the thread starter deleted his original post (Joe Asakura) which in turn deleted the thread? Perhaps if the thread starter is not someone who's likely to have a tantrum and thread delete when articles like below get a bit of attention, or if knuckle draggers could just control their emotions a bit better and not have threads deleted by admins.
                            I started the last thread and I did not delete it. These deletions have happened countless times already and there is no doubt it is some unstable individual with moderation powers. Also you have history full of dumb baiting and flaming (i.e. trolling) so, if deleted threads bothers you (instead of something you drive towards as seem more plausible judging by your behavior), you should take a look at a mirror. Same goes for FalconDude who somehow considered Su-57 thread a fitting place for fake news about Iran's Khamenei firing Air Defense Force chief because of imaginary F-35 stunts.

                            About the Gutenev piece. Do you take seriously his statement that Su-57 is 2.5 times cheaper than F-35. I didn't see you promoting that part of his ramblings. He also claimed (most likely falsely) that 4 PAK FAs visited Syria, when all other information pointed to 2 frames. Including statements by the Defence minister Shoigu both right after the trip in February and again in May. And do you now actually believe that the Russians know what F-22 and F-35 see or don't see? And that some Duma member would be at liberty of exposing this kind of extremely sensitive information, if he had got it through some classified briefings instead of talking out of his ass, which should be quite obvious?

                            Also the only frame so far, which have metallization of the whole canopy (T-50-10) and thus the fullest RCS treatment seen, had just performed its first flight and was only delivered from KnAAZ (Far East) in March, after the Syrian trip. That prototypes, which lack metallization of the canopy, could be detected would not be a concern.
                            Last edited by Bellum; 5th July 2018, 15:24.

                            Comment

                            • FalconDude
                              Rank 5 Registered User

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Bellum
                              Same goes for FalconDude who somehow considered Su-57 thread a fitting place for fake news about Iran's Khamenei firing Air Defense Force chief because of imaginary F-35 stunts.
                              Hey hey hey, first of all, this piece of news was available online -and to this day I have no idea if it is fake or real-, and second I would think that the reason it was posted in the Su-57 thread is quite evident and it is not because I have anything against the plane nor Russians. If you cannot see that I ain't gonna school you.

                              Originally posted by Bellum
                              About the Gutenev piece...
                              Why don't you help us with the obvious first and just tell us who these people (Gutenev etc) are and why you have no faith in their statements?
                              Would they have access to such information? Do they have a history of "talking out of their ass" or are generally respectable?
                              Last edited by FalconDude; 5th July 2018, 15:41.

                              Comment

                              • Austin
                                Rank 5 Registered User

                                #16
                                Su-57 equipped with ultra-long-range hypersonic missile

                                https://iz.ru/763319/2018-07-05/su-5...ukovoi-raketoi
                                "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                                Comment

                                • haavarla
                                  Rank 5 Registered User

                                  #17
                                  I'm pretty sure, the two Su-57 in Syria was undergoing weapons trial, or atleast it was part of state weapons trials.
                                  On top of this, they did also get valuble data out of operating the two Su-57 prototype out of a forward based Khem Air Base in Syria.
                                  You can with a little imagination see that condition on that base are far from clinical.


                                  There is no evidence that there was more of the known twin PakFa flying around in Syria, Zippo!

                                  There exist report that the operational tempo, number of missions flown by the 4th generation Russian fighters in Syria are nothing short of staggering.
                                  By any standard.
                                  There are several pilots for each airframe, and often one jet has been undertaking four mission on the same day.

                                  All this gives me to belive that the Su-57 will not be regarded as a hangar queen, and thus maturity is needed. That takes time.
                                  Thanks

                                  Comment

                                  • KGB
                                    KGB
                                    Senior Member

                                    #18
                                    Bellum said

                                    Same goes for FalconDude who somehow considered Su-57 thread a fitting place for fake news about Iran's Khamenei firing Air Defense Force chief because of imaginary F-35 stunts.
                                    Its all about their phony narrative. They think that stealth means achieving invisibility and the F-35 airshow in the bulls eye of the s300 is supposed to prove that the F-35 is invisible. And since the engine cowling on su 57 isn't painted, it means that the su 57 isn't stealth.

                                    Fulcondude
                                    Why don't you help us with the obvious first and just tell us who these people (Gutenev etc) are and why you have no faith in their statements?
                                    Would they have access to such information? Do they have a history of "talking out of their ass" or are generally respectable?
                                    He is a mouth piece that gets trotted out to huff and puff about the Russian economy and Russia in general . Which proves that you and Action Jackson have interpreted this completely backwards.

                                    Russia is capable of building its own equivalent of Mistral-class helicopter carrier equipped with nuclear power engines as Moscow is aware of the design of the French-made ship, deputy chairman of the Russian State Duma's Committee on Industry Vladimir Gutenev told RIA Novosti.

                                    Sanctions imposed by the United States and the European Union against Russia contradict the principles of the World Trade Organization, First Deputy Chairman of State Duma Committee on Industry Vladimir Gutenev said Monday.



                                    Vladimir Gutenev, a senior Russian lawmaker, stated that Swiss lawmakers were keenly interested in the terms and principles of a competition between tank crews and the ability to use their combat vehicles.

                                    Vladmir Gutenev, deputy chair of the State Duma's economic policy and business committee, noted that Siemens "does not have a monopoly on technology, and there is a fairly wide range of proposals from other countries, including in Southeast Asia."

                                    Its unfortunate that the person responsible for the deletion of the last su 57 thread, has just reposted what got the thread deleted in the first place. And another sophist has expanded on it.
                                    Last edited by KGB; 5th July 2018, 16:52.

                                    Comment

                                    • Marcellogo
                                      Rank 5 Registered User

                                      #19
                                      IMHO I thing it refers to the initial (-117 powered) model that would NOT be produced in any big number in any case, what seems me to be changed is the data of the production of the definitive version of the plane that have been shifted to 2023 instead of 2021 (but in this case it is possible that with the latter they referred to the 2021-2030 state armament programme).

                                      And really. they have stated quite clearly where the problem lie: 5gen planes (ANY of them) are much more in need "of finer service" i.e. they not just need more maintenance hour compared to a 4,5 gen but even specifically built tools.

                                      There is another problem: what is the planes that it is poised to substitute? Just Su-27 P & S? Actually there are less than 80 still in service and Su-35 and Su-30SM actually are acquired as their replacement.
                                      Last edited by Marcellogo; 5th July 2018, 17:40.

                                      Comment

                                      • KGB
                                        KGB
                                        Senior Member

                                        #20
                                        The su 57 is the su 27 of the future. No hurry.

                                        The F-22 is the future of nothing. Because it was a terribly planned program.
                                        Last edited by KGB; 5th July 2018, 18:07.

                                        Comment

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