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Su-57 News and Discussion -version_we_lost_count!-

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  • panzerfeist1
    Rank 6 Registered User
    • Feb 2018
    • 339

    ActionJackson do you by any chance have sources or images to show what you mean? Other than it does not look like my favorite aircraft therefore no stealth? Like can you show us what you mean than give a source that shows how much rcs would be reduced if it had such a stealth feature? F-16.net might view you as a traitor for giving such important stealth information away and those scientists that have access to those radar chambers feel relieved that you are the new adolf tolkachev and have a portrait of you hung up in their office.

    On my phone but it seems like your begging for classified info. The EW equipment himalayas was mounted in late 2014. What info do you expect from their EW? I dont have any info on the F-35s barricuda? What are you specifically asking for?
    I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

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    • LMFS
      Rank 4 Registered User
      • Feb 2018
      • 472

      ActionJackson

      I find it intriguing that you have this opinion of the plane, given the amount of materials available about it addressing such topics and considering where planes like Su-35S have already gone. There are two clear aspects that I perceive from many US observers:

      > Suspicion that, in the lack of irrefutable proof, what Russians say is not to be trusted. So a kind of "presumption of guilt" that I cannot go along with. Keep in mind that the same can be mirrored towards the US claims, but we don't do it because it would be unfair.
      > Expectation to receive the same level of information about the program that we are used to in case of F-35 and other Western developments. This is not going to be the case with PAK-FA. It is not reasonable to think the Russian developers are not doing the logical things the state of the art allows just because they don't give full details about them. Integrated avionics being one of the most obvious examples.

      Going to your points, even when to answer all that would take more time than I have now:

      The west defines 5th gen as a combination of Stealth, Sensor Integration and network integration (cooperative engagement, sensing, ew).
      Lockheed Martin defined 5G as stealth, super-manoeuvrability, super-cruising and integrated avionics when they were marketing the F-22. Now they are busy with the F-35 with less-than stellar kinematics so the definition is centred around the points where the later is stronger. The firm even tried to register the term 5G fighters and has been using the fact that being the first ones to field these planes, they had the power to shape the term.

      So lets take that definition with a bit of caution

      Going one step further, if you see the requirements both PCA and NGAD will share, speed, range, payload ring specially strong. Why is not the Su-57 a legitimate 5G+ fighter, when its main characteristics are exactly those?

      It's a given that the Su-57 is lacking stealth for quite a few reasons from all aspects.
      I have to challenge that you can take that as a given. You can have a healthy scepticism if you are missing in the plane many of the aspects you identify as crucial for VLO. But you cannot know with certainty what the real RCS values are and what you ignore of their ways of addressing the topic. Keep in mind that before PTD was invented in the USSR, US side had not even the theoretical comprehension of the phenomena to properly simulate the scattering properties of a plane's surface. So this is not a trivial problem not only from the technological perspective but even from the theoretical one. Apart from shaping there is absorption, interference and even EW that can affect to the capacity of a radar to detect a target. And on top of that, the tactical approach to the use of the plane. So I agree there are aspects of the design (mainly the cylindrical engine nacelles) that are clearly conflicting with commonly accepted stealth design, but IMHO we lack many of the keys to fully understand the reasons and the implications. A bit of caution would be advisable instead of a blanket dismissal, me thinks. And even more when we are talking about the guys that invented PTD and created the most sophisticated AD network in the world.

      The manufacturing photos of the serial aircraft recently showed that the aircraft are not being built with wedge shaped, graduating impedence, leading edge treatments. Just the same old blunt, rounded leading edges which will only support a far more reflective thin RAM.
      Ok, how do you know what the internal structure of those components are? Just asking, maybe it is obvious but not for me.

      BTW, the leading edges on the plane house the L-band radar, so I guess they will be built rather like radomes. But I will look at that carefully now you mention it.

      There's been no mention of sensor integration and no boasting of lines of missions systems code which is an indicator of overall system capability.
      There have been lots of claims about the integrated avionics and even a "virtual" pilot that suggests the pilot the best operative course of action considering the tactical environment. Su-35 already has a previous version of this virtual pilot and sensor integration. Not sure there has been given no info about the amount of written code but that is hardly a proof they are using rudimentary avionics. It would make no sense. I recommend you to take a look to Sukhoi's site and check what the Su-35S can do already and what is said about the PAK-FA

      https://www.sukhoi.org/products/samolety/256
      https://www.sukhoi.org/products/samolety/410
      On the networking side, no mention of directional data link which form the emcon component of stealth. We do know the aircraft plans to light up like a Christmas tree in this regard though.
      Why do we know that they are going to light like a Christmas tree? I see four big L band arrays on the plane that can theoretically be used exactly for that and furthermore the implementation of an integrated radioelectric system that can use at least radar and EW according to the needs. I don't recall mentions to the data links but as said they seem to have this capability with the L band arrays. There is a rear looking ECM set of which we don't know the details and antenna (at least) at the wing and keel tips. We just don't know (or I have not seen) how the data links are implemented but the talk about smart skin has been recurring.

      No mention of cooperative engagement or ew though (no mention of ew at all really).
      No mention in The National Interest, maybe. Sukhoi site explains Su-35 can do that already and Su-57 of course too. For instance:

      PAK-FA:
      a qualitatively new level of protection for aircraft, passive and active funds, including the composition of the group;

      Su-35S:
      The ability to group action in the air up to 16 Sukhoi su-35 with the automated exchange of information and allocation purposes, including in networks of aviation terminal (at).

      The RAP L-175М10 - 35 development of JSC "KNIRTI" provides group and individual protection of aircraft against threats by setting active radar jammers in a wide range of frequencies (up to 4 targets), use of radiant for purposes of anti-radar missiles, passive jamming by resetting about heat targets and chaff.


      Consider the Su-35 is a export plane and it already has highly integrated avionics and intellectual support of the pilot. And Su-57 takes all that to a new level. So I see no grounds to claim Su-57 fails on the two last elements of your definition of 5G either. Real performance is very difficult to evaluate but I see no obstacles to such elements being present.

      Based on this I'd challenge the assertion that this plane is a stepping stone to 6tg gen and say it's more of a step towards what is widely accepted as 5th gen. Let's call it 4.75
      Based on its kinematic characteristics the F-35 is a 4G plane then. Based on what US wants from their 5G+ (NGAD if they finally go that way with it) and 6G PCA, that is, back to the importance of the airframe as defining of what a plane CAN ultimately do, Su-57 is 5G+. Unsurprisingly its basic engine - WB layout is used in most 6G interpretations we see. We talk about a low observable airframe designed for long range flight at very high speeds, carrying long range, hypersonic weapons. It will be very difficult to match that in terms of air superiority. And with its characteristics and even more paired with UCAVs as Okhotnik it will be also quite potent in A2G roles. It seems we are centered around two or three polemic aspects and forgetting the many innovative capabilities the plane is developing.
      Last edited by LMFS; 5th June 2019, 00:44.

      Comment

      • panzerfeist1
        Rank 6 Registered User
        • Feb 2018
        • 339

        There are some features I don't see on the F-35 like fiber optics to monitor the composites of the aircraft and what pisses me off is a presentation of a hypersonic missile that looks like it was being carried externally on the F-35 defeating its purpose of stealth while it seems the Russians are focusing on an internal configuration making it seem that the SU-57 triumphs in SEAD because of it.. Although I don't think the F-35 is by any means inferior because of the lack of this and that. Maybe some better details will be shown since it feels like most users here don't have patience to wait for this coming airshow.
        I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

        Comment

        • Krivakapa
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Apr 2009
          • 91

          Originally posted by ActionJackson View Post
          We do know the aircraft plans to light up like a Christmas tree in this regard though.
          If modern AESA is very hard to detect then having two additional smaller AESA arrays (side ones) will not change much, in fact F-22 would have them too but then budget cuts canceled them.

          L band AESA in wings isn't something strange. F-35 have something similar which is used for EW and F-22 probable have too.
          Last edited by Krivakapa; 8th June 2019, 10:58.

          Comment

          • LMFS
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • Feb 2018
            • 472

            The contract for the supply of 76 su-57 videoconferencing can sign on the forum "Army"

            According to Vice Prime Minister Yuri Borisov, the future financing of manufacture of planes will be provided in the new state program of armaments.


            The contract for the supply of videoconferencing in the Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft su-57. likely to be signed at the international forum "Army-2019". This was stated by Vice Prime Minister Yuri Borisov SPIEF-2019.
            "We expect him, maybe even "Army-2019"" he said.
            According to Borisov, the means for the manufacture of aircraft for the period until 2023 there, and further funding will be provided in the new state program of armaments.

            tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201968104-Myaz5.html

            EDIT: some statements more from Borisov as published by Interfax:

            A contract for 76 su-57 can sign on the forum "Army"

            "We expect it (contract signing), maybe even "Army-2019". You heard the decision, which was declared by the commander in chief at the Sochi meeting," - Borisov said on the sidelines of the St. Petersburg international economic forum.
            "Yes, it can be signed", - he noted, answering a question, whether it is about the contract for 76 aircraft.
            International military-technical forum "Army-2019" will be held from 25 to 30 June.
            Deputy Prime Minister said that the decision on military districts, into which the machines will make the Ministry of defence. He also expressed confidence in the absence of problems with financing the production of the su-57.
            "The state arms program does not increase on this subject, but you know that we have every five years update. Money to 2023 there. Because 76 is not until 2023. We will have a new TAG, we will adjust," - said Borisov.
            He noted that due to the large volume of production cost of the aircraft will be reduced.

            http://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp...509866&lang=RU

            So, until 20203 maybe only the originally planned 15 or 16 will be paid, eventually with an increase of 20% in the quantities due to reduced unit price (that would be 18-19 units).
            Last edited by LMFS; 9th June 2019, 15:55.

            Comment

            • LMFS
              Rank 4 Registered User
              • Feb 2018
              • 472

              RF plans to bring the Su-57 to the external market, but later

              Moscow. June 10th. INTERFAX-AVN - The export of a fifth-generation Russian fighter, the Su-57, is planned, but only after it is put into service, Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov told Interfax.
              We are working in this direction, we have plans in the strategy for moving along the military-technical cooperation, but the time will come we will advance. While the Su-35 is doing well, we dont see any reason to undermine our own market. There will be a need we always have a trump card ", - said Borisov, answering the question about the withdrawal of the Su-57 to the international market.
              There is a rule that before adopting it we never issue (export permission - IF), he said.
              Meanwhile, an informed source had previously informed Interfax that the documents authorizing the export of the fifth-generation Russian fighter, the Su-57, have been agreed.
              Russia may officially present the export version of the Su-57 in November at an air show in Dubai, the British edition Janes reported in March with reference to the director of international cooperation and regional policy of the Rostec state corporation Viktor Kladov.

              https://www.militarynews.ru/story.as...509913&lang=RU
              Last edited by LMFS; 13th June 2019, 22:42.

              Comment

              • Dr.Snufflebug
                Boggleboople snufflebug
                • Aug 2012
                • 521

                T-50-1 and -4:



                Akhtubinsk, last year:



                Also, as the first actual serial-spec plane is under assembly, they've announced that the cockpit is receiving a major update by Elkus and is getting one massive touchscreen MFD (basically, F-35 style), instead of the two big (Su-35S-style) ones it has now.




                (from an Elkus demonstration in St. Petersburg)
                Last edited by Dr.Snufflebug; 13th June 2019, 12:18.
                sigpic

                Comment

                • schurem
                  Sim Jockey
                  • Jul 2008
                  • 301

                  Oh that's hilarious. Google image search "HOTAS Warthog". The stick displayed next to that screen is an American made game peripheral. Even more hilarious is the fact that that used to be the top-end very best stick on the market until... A couple Russian companies (VKB and VirPil) put even better sticks on the market. XaXaXa!

                  The screen behind it is displaying a still from DCS, a flight simulation game built in Moscow by a company that is truly international.

                  Comment

                  • Dr.Snufflebug
                    Boggleboople snufflebug
                    • Aug 2012
                    • 521

                    Yes, they've hooked their various MFDs up to DCS for display, hence the gaming peripherals.

                    Video (first half):
                    https://topspb.tv/news/2019/06/11/al...medium=desktop
                    sigpic

                    Comment

                    • haavarla
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 6652

                      Originally posted by schurem View Post
                      Oh that's hilarious. Google image search "HOTAS Warthog". The stick displayed next to that screen is an American made game peripheral. Even more hilarious is the fact that that used to be the top-end very best stick on the market until... A couple Russian companies (VKB and VirPil) put even better sticks on the market. XaXaXa!

                      The screen behind it is displaying a still from DCS, a flight simulation game built in Moscow by a company that is truly international.
                      I bought the warthog HOTAS last year. Its good enough. But i want that VKB flightstick soo bad!
                      Its THE best Flightstick in the Flightsim Game Market, hands down!
                      Thanks

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