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    #41
    When Su-57 took off they planed +200 for Russian air force,
    Every single military program starts off with lofty statements like that. F-22 was no different.

    50 before 2021, and then oil price drop plus sanctions, and India probable left program.
    Russia could easily afford to build 50 before 2021. There is a big difference between not having "the money" and choosing not to allocate it. They changed the scope of the program for many different factors.

    Russia would never put a government budget surplus or foreign exchange reserve goals ahead of the su 57 program if it really thought that it wasn't near parity with the US now. Especially considering the showdown that Russia and the west are in.

    BTW if you don't believe me:
    tass.com/defense/994572

    Money is problem.
    There is nothing in that link that says anything about the su 57 program. Nothing at all. 12 aircraft was budgeted for at the start. Theres nothing new about the 12 aircraft.

    The F-35 is just barely getting out in the field now and the F-22 is mostly a hanger queen. If the su 35 + s400 and the coming s500 wasn't able to get them close enough to parity , they would find the money for the su 57 if they really needed it. They just would. Is Russia at parity sentimentally ? No. Russia would have to build 150 su 57's soon to get to sentimental parity.

    Show me one economic data point that suggests they couldn't get money for the su 57 program if they really wanted to ?



    Russian FinMin expects budget surplus, not deficit, for 2018

    MOSCOW, May 11 (Reuters) - The Russian Finance Ministry expects the budget for 2018 to run a surplus, not a deficit, for the first time since 2011 thanks to rising oil prices, a draft law on the budget showed late on Thursday.

    Russian inflation to hit record low this year before 2018 rebound ...

    https://www.reuters.com/...russia......is-year-before...
    Last edited by KGB; 9th July 2018, 00:54.

    Comment


      #42
      @panzerfeist1
      Bragging about production of 5th gen aircraft no one seems to care about here that much. Everyone is more focused the features of the SU-57 than they are about the production.
      Itys funny isn't it ? Nobody cares that much about the J-20 either. How many are they really producing ? Nobody knows. What is the production program anyway ? Whos keeping track of it ?

      The Chinese say its "in service". And everyone just nods their heads.
      Last edited by KGB; 9th July 2018, 00:35.

      Comment


        #43
        Su-57 6 generation?

        I had to read many times these articles because i thought it was april fool day in Russia.

        I think this man told this after drink 1 or 2 bottles of vodka.
        The backbone of the US air force today is a 1976 airframe. But the su 57 can't be a 6th gen

        Military hardware is not consumer goods Rall.


        This man tell with other words that they will build few Su-57 because with 4 generation fleet is enough for protect against 5 generation fleet from West.

        Stop lies man; if you are going to have few numbers of SU-57 it is only for 2 reasons, or you do not have money for to buy big quantidy of this airplane, or the other option is that this airplane have problems and you do not want buy many until you can fix these problems on airplane.

        This sentence of this man can be good for RT and Sputnik readers, for nobody more
        You can spin it however you please Rall. Military Watch magazine is not a Russian publication.This was just about explaining what Gutenev meant with his comments. And it is diametrically the opposite of what Falcondude and Actionjackson were saying that he meant by his comments.

        they will build few Su-57 because with 4 generation fleet is enough for protect against 5 generation fleet from West
        At present the F-35 isn't out there yet and has years to get the bugs out of it. And the F-22 is a hanger queen. And Russia is ahead of the US in ground air defense capability. Do they mean that in a squad vs squad fight, the su 35 could beat the F-22 ? No. They just mean that the sum of the US and Russia's strengths and weaknesses, they are comfortable running with what they have + 12 su 57's for now.

        Remember the su 35 has supercruise, 5th gen avionics and 3D TVC
        Last edited by KGB; 9th July 2018, 00:57.

        Comment


          #44
          We tested the ability of our aircraft to be detected by the F-22 and F-35 in a short deployment to Syria. After gathering the data, we found significant cause for their (the Su-57s') improvement

          The thing is, if you are interpreting this correctly then such a scenario actually benefits the Russians. This implies that the Russians know that they were likely detected. There are two ways this could have happened. 1) F-22s and/or F-35s placed a radar lock on the Su-57. 2) The Su-57 allowed itself to approach the known threat radar to were it would have a reflected SNR (for that specific test aircraft) high enough so that detection was likely. Then, the Russians used target motion analysis to gain the precise distance to the US stealth platform. The Su-57 could have done this by itself by performing a rapid maneuver or they were also using a second platform to track the USAF aircraft's emissions. Either way you get two bearings from two known locations, and where they cross is where your target is (the whole principle of TMA).


          This benefits the Russians because 1) it proves that their Himalayas system can keep up with our low probability of intercept radars. 2) The radar signature of the production variant of the Su-57 will change drastically from the test aircraft sent to Syria due to final touches on the absorbent coat, ITO treated canopy, product 30 engines, etc. This means that the RuAF has gained known signature information on the F-22 and F-35 and can develop engagement and avoidance tactics for the production model to use. The USAF did not gain similar useful information from the encounter and can only use guesswork when formulating tactics.

          Comment


            #45
            Remember the su 35 has supercruise...

            Do you actually have a source for that? An awful lot of the aircraft which are said to be able to "supercruise" are actually Supercruise In Name Only (SINO). The only aircraft that I know which have proven that they can supercruise with a useful weapons loadout are the Raptor and the Eurofighter. The Rafale should be able to, but I'm not aware of it publicly displaying it. The others...um, no.

            Comment


              #46
              ^
              The buzz in the media , at the time that the su 57 prototypes were deployed to Syria, was that it was a stupid, irresponsible and risky thing to do.

              So Vladimir Gutenev thought it was a good idea to run his mouth and exaggerate how important the Syria trip for the su 57's was. I mean really..What F-35's ? Had to be Israeli. Were there Raptors even deployed to Syria at that time ? We can find out. This was a load of BS from someone running their mouth.


              But just like the deployment to Syria was over analyzed and spun, the words from this random Russian politician is being spun.

              Comment


                #47
                So what am i looking at currently ? How's the Su-57 prototype testing so far ? Why we have news that a new "flanker" variant will be developed despite Su-35 being called as the last flanker ? Logically if Su-57 cannot meet its expectation (or like any movie fan expectation toward Batman movie) and so would be any new "flanker" variant.

                Plus I wonder why Sukhoi OKB or anyone in charge never really "address" the critics as what F-35 official does.

                Comment


                  #48
                  @KGB
                  There is nothing in that link that says anything about the su 57 program. Nothing at all. 12 aircraft was budgeted for at the start. Theres nothing new about the 12 aircraft.
                  But I am not talking about 12 aircrafts, I am talking about 50 aircrafts which they planned in early years of Su-57 testing!

                  Indians left program. So cost of production line just for Russia would be very high and low oil price and no export orders only makes things worse. So they decide to delay Su-57 production until economy is better.

                  TASS article is very clear Russia is cutting military spending, not some huge cut but cut.
                  Last edited by Krivakapa; 9th July 2018, 09:13.

                  Comment


                    #49
                    Originally posted by XB-70 View Post
                    The thing is, if you are interpreting this correctly then such a scenario actually benefits the Russians. This implies that the Russians know that they were likely detected. There are two ways this could have happened. 1) F-22s and/or F-35s placed a radar lock on the Su-57. 2) The Su-57 allowed itself to approach the known threat radar to were it would have a reflected SNR (for that specific test aircraft) high enough so that detection was likely. Then, the Russians used target motion analysis to gain the precise distance to the US stealth platform. The Su-57 could have done this by itself by performing a rapid maneuver or they were also using a second platform to track the USAF aircraft's emissions. Either way you get two bearings from two known locations, and where they cross is where your target is (the whole principle of TMA).


                    This benefits the Russians because 1) it proves that their Himalayas system can keep up with our low probability of intercept radars. 2) The radar signature of the production variant of the Su-57 will change drastically from the test aircraft sent to Syria due to final touches on the absorbent coat, ITO treated canopy, product 30 engines, etc. This means that the RuAF has gained known signature information on the F-22 and F-35 and can develop engagement and avoidance tactics for the production model to use. The USAF did not gain similar useful information from the encounter and can only use guesswork when formulating tactics.
                    ..... or as suggested from the telemetry data (his comment suggesting collected data being analysed post mission) they performed analysis of recorded signal data from multiple, distributed receivers. After months of post mission data analysis were able to detect the transition of the source radar from search to lock mode (prf and power changes) from an apg-79-like radar (a radar they should be familiar with and have the ability to identify due to unstealthy platform)

                    With enough signal data from multiple receivers, plenty of compute power to detect a main lobe and correlate it with much lower powered side lobes arriving at different receivers, they were able to use time of arrival techniques to determine range from the sources.

                    Comment


                      #50
                      But I am not talking about 12 aircrafts, I am talking about 50 aircrafts which they planned in early years of Su-57 testing!

                      Indians left program. So cost of production line just for Russia would be very high and low oil price and no export orders only makes things worse. So they decide to delay Su-57 production until economy is better.

                      TASS article is very clear Russia is cutting military spending, not some huge cut but cut.
                      the second stage engine not certified. so there is no point in building larger number. The first 12 enough for creating training. Russia is only country that can make and afford 100% domestic 5+G and 6G fighters in large quantities. Its government sells least amount of bonds.

                      They are already building components for 6G fighter.
                      http://tass.com/defense/1012445
                      Russia to develop advanced radio-photonic radars for 6th-generation fighter jets
                      new G suite.
                      http://tass.com/defense/1012403
                      The chief executive earlier told TASS that the deliveries of the new G-suit would begin no sooner than 2019. Five such suits have been delivered to the Sukhoi Aircraft Company and the tests will last about six months, he said.

                      Comment


                        #51
                        Actionjackson said

                        (his comment suggesting collected data being analysed post mission) they performed analysis of recorded signal data from multiple, distributed receivers. After months of post mission data analysis were able to detect the transition of the source radar from search to lock mode

                        Look at this. He just takes a vague statement and makes a story about what happened out of whole cloth.

                        Again. The buzz in the media was that the su 57 deployment was irresponsible and risky. So So Vladimir Gutenev thought it was a good idea to run his mouth and exaggerate how important the Syria trip for the su 57's was.

                        The prototypes went there to do this missile test. And so the brass could sit there with their big fancy war room and watch it on the big screens.

                        Comment


                          #52
                          @KGB: this is probably a missile launch in testing ground and not in Syria, due to the colour of the weapon.

                          @ActionJackson: I don't really want to go deep in this controversy but I think your affirmations are a little too far fetched. Very serious, Russian sources that can actually read and interpret the original statements indicate they rather point the PAK-FA detecting the US fighters and not the other way around. Keep in mind:

                          > Nervous statements from US military regarding the inconvenient presence of Russian AD and fighters in the same area than F-22
                          > Hysteria surrounding S-400
                          > Russian side calling "amateurs" those who believe in "aircraft invisibility" against modern IADs
                          > B-2 renouncing to high-level penetration in Russian air space and being modified for low level flight
                          > Russian sources pointing to signatures from Syria confirming their simulations about RCS of modern Western fighters
                          > Visit of PAK-FAs to Syria could have been ongoing for say 1 or 2 weeks before being discovered or leaked and immediately terminated. What those planes did there and how long, probably only Russians know. They could have operated at night, checking their sensors and radio-electric suite, masked with ECM and other aircraft without anybody detecting them simply because they were not expected. This would actually have made some sense unlike the reported two day visit which frankly almost nobody understood.

                          So, far from my intention to make bold statements since this is an obscure subject but rather trying to balance the discussion a bit. I repeat: Russians do not believe in stealth the way it is discussed in the West, so no point in them trying to clone US fighters in the first place. Maybe their plane looks less "stealth" but they don't really care, since in tactical reality also the US ones are not stealth enough to escape their IAD, despite much higher costs and aerodynamic compromises. Also consider the huge benefits for the West of having the whole world thinking they posses an unstoppable offensive weapon in the form of stealth planes. This would greatly help understand the S-400 saga, BTW. Let's have an open mind instead of being confined to think within the narrow parameters of imposed narratives.

                          Comment


                            #53
                            Remember the su 35 has supercruise, 5th gen avionics and 3D TVC


                            You are confuse between 5th avionics and have nice modernized colour screens inside cockpit. the key is situational awareness.

                            Supercruise will be marginal, if this airplane has because it has many drag with these big pylons. And 3d TVC really is 2D. I do not know why people continue telling this.




                            You do not get confuse with my words, the Su-35 S is a very very good aircraft, with positive things and other not so positive things, as EF-2000 or Rafale, or F-15 C, but all these aircrafts are 4th generation or if you like more 4 ++ generation, but miles away from F-35 and F-22, 5 th generation fighters.

                            Comment


                              #54
                              "We tested the ability of our aircraft to be detected by the F-22 and F-35 in a short deployment to Syria. After gathering the data, we found significant cause for their (the Su-57s') improvement "

                              So why is everyone getting their panties wet from this statement since it can be interpreted in many different ways?

                              https://theaviationist.com/2014/09/3...-fighter-jets/
                              "Apparently along with the Rafale, one aircraft which proved to be a real threat for the F-22 is the Eurofighter Typhoon: during the 2012 Red Flag-Alaska, the German Eurofighters not only held their own, but reportedly achieved several kills on the Raptors. "

                              OK supposedly the F-22 had more kills on the Euro-fighters. So what does this say everyone? Countries who believe their aircraft's are far superior to another adversaries would still find means of trying to improve their aircraft. Even a 4th gen can still be considered a threat to a F-22 and improving the F-22 does not mean the F-22 is inferior. Even 5th gens like the F-22 and F-35 can still be considered a threat to a SU-57 and improving the SU-57 does not mean the SU-57 is inferior.

                              A network admin in this forum managed to have this website have 99.99 uptime so this website for a year has experienced 52 minutes of down time a year. That does not make the network admin here a rookie if he increased the uptime to 99.999 by providing a mesh topology with multiple servers in case one went down with multiple links

                              Why bother making a big deal out of users that have a professional troll background here?
                              Last edited by panzerfeist1; 9th July 2018, 21:42.

                              Comment


                                #55
                                ^
                                You are confuse between 5th avionics and have nice modernized colour screens inside cockpit. the key is situational awareness.
                                Im no expert on that stuff. Does the su 35 have all the latest that the su 57 will have ? Probably not. But its probably more than just fancy color screens.

                                You do not get confuse with my words, the Su-35 S is a very very good aircraft, with positive things and other not so positive things, as EF-2000 or Rafale, or F-15 C, but all these aircrafts are 4th generation or if you like more 4 ++ generation, but miles away from F-35 and F-22, 5 th generation fighters.
                                I dunno about miles but of course they are better. But there isn't that many F-35's in service yet, they will be working the bugs out of them for the next few years , and the F-22 isn't being modernized and isn't being built anymore. The backbone of the force is still F-15 and F-16. And Russia is ahead in ground air defense capability at the moment with s400-500. With all of these things considered, Russia is comfortable with its fleet + a small amount of su 57's for the next few years.



                                Its 3D because they can move at different angles, side to side. I don't thing the F-22 does that.

                                Comment


                                  #56
                                  Originally posted by KGB View Post
                                  ^

                                  Im no expert on that stuff. Does the su 35 have all the latest that the su 57 will have ? Probably not. But its probably more than just fancy color screens.


                                  I dunno about miles but of course they are better. But there isn't that many F-35's in service yet, they will be working the bugs out of them for the next few years , and the F-22 isn't being modernized and isn't being built anymore. The backbone of the force is still F-15 and F-16. And Russia is ahead in ground air defense capability at the moment with s400-500. With all of these things considered, Russia is comfortable with its fleet + a small amount of su 57's for the next few years.



                                  Its 3D because they can move at different angles, side to side. I don't thing the F-22 does that.

                                  FFS KGB!
                                  The very GIF you produced, shows exactly what RALL said.
                                  The TVC of the serial produced Flankers, be it MKI, MKA, MKM or Su-30SM or Su-35S oor Su-57 nozzles deflects in a \ / motion!
                                  \ /
                                  Not vertical or horisontal..
                                  Thanks

                                  Comment


                                    #57
                                    @RALL:

                                    You have to pay a royalty to Lockheed Martin every time you write "situational awareness" (TM) you know

                                    Please explain, because I still don't understand, what elements of this mythical feature are absent in Su-35 or Su-57. To talk about this to Russians, who used the "network-centric warfare" (TM) with the MiG-31 like 30 years before knowing that it would make for such a good propaganda in Western hands, is a little absurd. By the way, the pilot of the F-35 can have a superb knowledge of their surroundings and still get his ass handed to him by a SAM shot (in full HD of course) since it cannot accelerate fast enough, fly fast enough or attack far enough to out-run it. To see this, take a look at how the Iraqi MiG-25s in the Gulf War engaged and disengaged almost at will with US air power only because they were freakin' fast. BVR missiles and all, engagement windows do depend very strongly on the relative dynamic capabilities of the target and the missile. So how fast and high a plane can fly does matter, much. And while avionics can be updated, the aerodynamic limitations can not, by far, be improved in the same way.

                                    IIRC, the old Russian TVC nozzles move as you depict. The newer on Su-35 and T-50 move independently in X and Z axis. Nevertheless, the ones you show can produce torque in both axis as well, though not so optimally or with so many degrees of freedom.

                                    As far as I understand, the supercruise limitation of the Su-35 to low supersonic speed comes rather from the dry power of its engines, clearly below that of a F-22, rather than from aerodynamics.

                                    Regarding the pressing need of 5G fighters for Russia... it simply does not exist in reality beyond industrial and prestige reasons. US has no basing capabilities to mount a reasonably dangerous conventional attack to Russian territory. And even then, the Russian IAD is simply way too powerful to be easily defeated due to advantages in radar coverage and interception means. Only to avoid radar detection through the integrated radar network and destruction by means of MiG-31 / R-37 would be already an achievement. So no big surprise, that they take their time deploying the Su-57.

                                    Comment


                                      #58
                                      MiG-31 wasn't the first aircraft to have a data-link either. Iraqi MiG-25s which did seriously commit to an attack were generally shot down. Harassment at long range and then running off was more common. Amazing how the Iraqi MiG-25 has almost acquired some sort of mythical reputation thanks to Wikipedia.

                                      Anyway the point is there not all data-links are created equal. The data-link on a MiG-31 certainly wouldn't be passing along anything useful for engaging targets on the ground for example.

                                      Comment


                                        #59
                                        ..... or as suggested from the “telemetry data” (his comment suggesting collected data being analysed post mission) they performed analysis of recorded signal data from multiple, distributed receivers. After months of post mission data analysis were able to detect the transition of the source radar from search to lock mode (prf and power changes) from an apg-79-like radar (a radar they should be familiar with and have the ability to identify due to unstealthy platform)

                                        This doesn't make sense. When you've obtained multiple bearings to a signal source from known locations over a short period of time then you have located the origin of the source - in real time to a small region of uncertainty. This isn't submarine vs. submarine where the wavelength of the signal is large in comparison to your transducer - inducing error/distortion and where the possibility of multiple arrival paths (from bottom bounce or CZ) may necessitate more length TMA or some post processing to find the optimal solution.

                                        And the implications would remain the same. The RuAF could gain valid intel but the USAF could not. At any rate, we don't know what the Russian Su-57s did in Syria or what their purpose was. This is speculation off of a pretty poor translation.

                                        Comment


                                          #60
                                          @Haavarla

                                          Can the F-22's nozzles point at opposite directions ? Meaning left one is going up and right one is going down ?

                                          I'm not even sure but I don't think it can
                                          Last edited by KGB; 10th July 2018, 03:18.

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